Tested - Remapped FR TDI v Civic Type R

[RobM]

again rob its not a small amount of money....we are talking a good £2k or more to get an LCR or CTR to those levels. CTR i think may cost more....Small amount of money to £300-400 quid for a remap.

I know it's not mate, I know you're 100% right. But I was using Al_G's use of the word 'reasonable' (hence the inverted commas ) to explain that pound for pound, the LCR will always be able to extract more power.

I don't think £2000+ is reasonable at all, but if Al_G does then I shall discuss it on his terms

 

[Al_G]

CTR's can be tuned for a 'reasonable' sum, you're right. But any SC kit is going to be in the thousands of pounds territory, I'd suggest you're looking at £1500 as a starting point not including labour to get the CTR to 300bhp.

The LCR can be taken to 330-350bhp with similar torque levels for that money, just look at what JBS offer.

Until the CTR can produce 260+bhp for less than £600 worth of modifications, it will never compete with the LCR for it's ability to be tuned for 'reasonable' money.

Completely off topic but what kind of modifications should you do to produce a reliable 265bhp?

 

[RobM]

A remap. That is all. Revo, Custom Code, AmD, BAS, PTorque, Jabba... take your pick. They all give that sort of power and they all start at the £400 mark and go up from there.

 

[Al_G]

A remap. That is all. Revo, Custom Code, AmD, BAS, PTorque, Jabba... take your pick. They all give that sort of power and they all start at the £400 mark and go up from there.

Is that considered a 'stage 1 map'?

People talk about 'stage 2 maps'. What kind of BHP figers can be seen from a 'stage 2 map' and what other modifications are required to make this power 'reliable'?

 

[RobM]

Yup, Stage 1 is just a remap. An air filter and a cat back exhaust can also be considered part of Stage 1.

Stage 2 requires a full, turbo back exhaust system (downpipe and sports cat included), induction kit, sometimes a 4bar FPR and ideally, for the best and most reliable results, a Front Mounted Intercooler (FMIC). Power from that is 270+ hopefully.

 

[dmmsta]

From what I've read on the subject you're moving into the realms of FMIC's if looking for stage 2, along with Turbo back exhaust, induction, and uprated FPR.

There's loads out their about Stage 2, or have a word with Jabba they're FULL of the info you'll need.

EDIT: God Dammit - Rob beats me again

 

[Eat The Rich]

Just been watchin a couple of vids,i sort of get the impression that a LCR quicker than a CTR from roll on,but whenever i ve raced anythin from a standin start always struggle gettin it to lanch well, cos its so heavy 1811kg to be exact a CTR is only 1550kg

Where did you get those weights from? The LCR is 1376kg and the CTR is 1204kg


I had an '04 Civic Type R for a year before I got my LCR. There's a lot of talk about the k20's not picking their feet up till VTEC... fair enough that's where the big jump is but you'd be surprised how quick they are ALL the way through the rev range. It can be a tedious thing waiting for VTEC if you're tanking it but once that's there you'll start catching things up for sure.

Yeah, if you're rolling mid-range alongside a CTR in a LCR (esp a remapped one) and you floor it then you're gonna pull a fair few car lengths on it but be assured it will catch you up. They're very similar cars with regard to their speed - they just deliver it so much differently.

As for tuning a CTR... yeah it's obviously a lot harder than with the LCR. You're looking £200 for a decent induction kit, £500 exhaust and ~£800 for a KPRO... as far as I know this'll only take it to 220-230 ish too.

It was wild coming to a stage 1 revo'd LCR after my CTR... couldn't believe how easy it was to go 'quick'. My LCR is quicker than my CTR was, all the way through the rev range but standard vs. standard there's very little in it - you've just gotta have a 'fair' enough road to get the CTR going

 

[RobM]

That's what puts me off the Hondas to be honest... there are too many criteria to going fast or making good progress. You have to be in the right gear, at the right point in the rev range, at the right time. If not, forget it.

A question to previous or current CTR owners... roughly what point in the rev range is the car sitting at when doing 80-85 on the motorway?

 

[HarveyGTI]

Yeah, if you're rolling mid-range alongside a CTR in a LCR (esp a remapped one) and you floor it then you're gonna pull a fair few car lengths on it but be assured it will catch you up. They're very similar cars with regard to their speed - they just deliver it so much differently.

completely disagree, met a few CTR's in my mapped Ibiza (ok so its an ibiza) rolling together on a motorway the CTR was anihilated and never caught up and never will

 

[Snoopcousins]

What if any bhp increase would an exhaust upgrade give on the CTR?

 

[Eat The Rich]

completely disagree, met a few CTR's in my mapped Ibiza (ok so its an ibiza) rolling together on a motorway the CTR was anihilated and never caught up and never will

There's no way... I'm not doing this to 'favour' one car, I'm saying cause I've got a LCR and had a CTR for a while. My best mate has a stage 1 revo'd Ibiza Cupra, forge DV and green dynatwist. He would pull a fair bit in front as we came onto duel carriageways but I'd reel him in. As for 'never will' catch, I can guarantee a CTR would catch you

What if any bhp increase would an exhaust upgrade give on the CTR?

Hmmm... it's one of those questions. The highest regarded exhausts like the buddlyclub and spoon ones (£500) were meant to be good for anything between 5-10...

 

[jonjay]

5 bhp snoop....like Eat said hehe

 

[HarveyGTI]

There's no way... I'm not doing this to 'favour' one car, I'm saying cause I've got a LCR and had a CTR for a while. My best mate has a stage 1 revo'd Ibiza Cupra, forge DV and green dynatwist. He would pull a fair bit in front as we came onto duel carriageways but I'd reel him in. As for 'never will' catch, I can guarantee a CTR would catch you




Hmmm... it's one of those questions. The highest regarded exhausts like the buddlyclub and spoon ones (£500) were meant to be good for anything between 5-10...

i hate these debates but...

since my Ibiza cupra was running 245bhp and 279lbft, you still think the Civic type R would have caught me do you. No - Why? because i reach top end speed alot quicker and wait for the civic type R to catch up, however by that time i have pulled multiple car lengths on it, so no it wont catch up at all

If i have pulled say 15 car lengths at least over the CTR, and then we both travel at a top speed of 160mph, then it will still sit at 15 car lengths behind me and would never catch me, as i have already pulled the greater distance and then we sit at the same speed we sit the same distance apart

it would only catch me if it was travelling faster than me

 

[skahigh]

a point regarding the top gear lap times....

now I love top gear as much as the next guy (probably more) but to take their lap times as gospel is ridiculous as its the best time one man (the stig) can get out of those cars on several runs. If you put all of those cars in someone elses hands you may very well get a completely different line up.

this can be proved when you look at their celebrity lap times or rather, the lap times achieved by f1 drivers in the suzuki. Mark webber (a current f1 driver) got his ass kicked by Mansell (something in the order of 3 seconds i believe) who hasnt raced in f1 for many years.

my point here is that the driver can have as much of an effect as the track conditions, the humidity and the actual performance of the car on any given day. basically, people can find videos to show anything......its not PROOF.

that said, i love my LCR and wouldnt swap it but to me....the CTR FEELS faster. also, theres no need for everyone to get heated about this.....its a FRIENDLY forum....lets keep it that way!

 

[Eat The Rich]

I think it's a different story if you're running a 245bhp Ibiza... there was no mention of that

You can see where I'm coming from though... there are so many people out there that just happen to hear or quickly read how a CTR has 'no power' till 6k and instantly they make up these random stories... I've seen it so many times (especially with people coming on CTR forums giving abuse)

Like I said above though, if you're running 245bhp then it's a different story

 

[Number86]

Skahigh, you're kinda invalidating your own point there. Going on about laptimes with different drivers...

It's also a bit confusing. Of course different drivers will get different times. The whole point about the TG laptime is it was recorded by THE SAME driver. Who's infinitely experienced on the track. You can't really get a fairer test than that. Unless he literally jumped out one car and into the next.

Your point about different drivers is redundant.
1) It's not a different driver
2) It's a test comparing the CAR. Not the driver.

 

[newannaive]

Hello boys.....I own a CTR and your LC vs CTR thread has attracted a bit of interest on the CTR forums....

we're all a bit friendly really and have nothing bad to say about one car or another, I really like the LCR personally, I think they are a really nice looking car with bags of tuning potential...and have always been a fan of diesel torquey-ness...of which Seat seem to have with their tdi lumps....

Very interesting to hear all your opinions on the comparison between the two cars...LCR vs CTR....I think most have hit the nail on the head, standing start would be fairly equal imo, but the LCR would pull out a bit of a lead if it's been mapped, obviously, but from rolling the LCR would have quite an advantage.

I actually raced an Audi S3 recently on an airfield, which uses the same engine as yours iirc(could be wrong tho, has been known once before), he had a bigger intercooler, induction kit and exhaust, he annihilated me at the start but couldn't pull out any more of a lead than about 3 car lengths, but killed him in the twisty bit and the sprint back to the start/finish line....heres a vid..or two...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIcZlE_xjCo

this is my second run against the audi, but my amateur cameraman passenger missed the first part of it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CZ8qjFWyL4


oh, my ctr is a totally standard 52 plate with 68k on the clock....


I am pretty sure tho that under normal cicumstances he would beat me, i.e. rolling start, uneven road surface etc......in short, a standard ctr going at full chat is a force to be reckoned with, on the open road everyday it is a desired taste to be fair, but 25-30mpg is quite welcome as well....

oh and a standard ctr is nowhere near 1550kgs like someone said in this thread.....more like 1200kgs.....


thanks for listening, love your work.....

 

[skahigh]

no, thats entirely my point....mansell got a time from the suzuki that the stig couldnt get but believed was possible.

if you put mansell in all of the cars the stig has done power lap times in, you would almost certainly get a different ORDERING of the cars than when the stig drove them.

i think the crux of my point is that all cars will perform differently in different hands, i.e. they will respond better to certain driving styles.

so for example...the stig does a faster lap time in the lcr than the ctr, mansell does a quicker time in the ctr than the lcr, which car is better/faster? the tg times cant be considered a reliable measure.

 

[HarveyGTI]

I think it's a different story if you're running a 245bhp Ibiza... there was no mention of that

You can see where I'm coming from though... there are so many people out there that just happen to hear or quickly read how a CTR has 'no power' till 6k and instantly they make up these random stories... I've seen it so many times (especially with people coming on CTR forums giving abuse)

Like I said above though, if you're running 245bhp then it's a different story

sorry yes. forgot to throw that one in, very heavily modified Ibiza - K03s, Forge FMIC, race cat, 3" DP, dynatwist, jabba remap etc etc

sorry perhaps a bit harsh as we were comparing apples and a lawn mower together, nothing much in common he he!!

but yes having had the identical mods to you (when my car first started out), STG1 Revo, dynatwist etc, i could well imagine the CTR having the edge

so fair play mate

 

[HarveyGTI]

Hello boys.....I own a CTR and your LC vs CTR thread has attracted a bit of interest on the CTR forums....

we're all a bit friendly really and have nothing bad to say about one car or another, I really like the LCR personally, I think they are a really nice looking car with bags of tuning potential...and have always been a fan of diesel torquey-ness...of which Seat seem to have with their tdi lumps....

Very interesting to hear all your opinions on the comparison between the two cars...LCR vs CTR....I think most have hit the nail on the head, standing start would be fairly equal imo, but the LCR would pull out a bit of a lead if it's been mapped, obviously, but from rolling the LCR would have quite an advantage.

I actually raced an Audi S3 recently on an airfield, which uses the same engine as yours iirc(could be wrong tho, has been known once before), he had a bigger intercooler, induction kit and exhaust, he annihilated me at the start but couldn't pull out any more of a lead than about 3 car lengths, but killed him in the twisty bit and the sprint back to the start/finish line....heres a vid..or two...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIcZlE_xjCo

this is my second run against the audi, but my amateur cameraman passenger missed the first part of it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CZ8qjFWyL4


oh, my ctr is a totally standard 52 plate with 68k on the clock....


I am pretty sure tho that under normal cicumstances he would blitz me, i.e. rolling start, uneven road surface etc......in short, a standard ctr going at full chat is a force to be reckoned with, on the open road everyday it is a desired taste to be fair, but 25-30mpg is quite welcome as well....

oh and a standard ctr is nowhere near 1550kgs like someone said in this thread.....more like 1200kgs.....


thanks for listening, love your work.....

he he

you wouldn't have heard about this thread from a certain person posting on the CTR forums would you