Cupra R - Forge Remap Logs....feels slow

[8bit]

Some One like Bill will now as he;s a good mapper it should be stable through out the rev range on wot..

Invite Bill in to the convo..

Bill did post early in this thread, dunno if he's still got the subscription - is it bad form to PM him and ask for comments? Just I know he's a busy man...

 

[tsrperformance]

logs

Why are you thinking you have a problem with fuel ? from your logs your car appears to be meeting it's lambda target?

 

[8bit]

The mixture is meant to richen up from around 14:1 to 12.5:1 as the revs increase.

 

[tsrperformance]

fuel

The ecu will only meet the lambda target the ecu is requesting though or regulate to as near as it can? If you think you have a problem with fuel it would be worth logging your injector duty cycle to check it is not to high.

 

[8bit]

My last power/torque graph and air/fuel ratio:

And injector duty cycle over same runs:

The dyno operator told me that it should be getting richer over the course of the run, down to around 12.5:1 by WOT. He reckoned that the low injector duty cycle was a product of underfuelling rather than suggesting that it was the cause.

 

[tsrperformance]

graph

What I mean with regard to the fuelling on the logs I have seen (maybe you would like to send them and we will take a look closer for you) is the fuelling the ecu is requesting hence what the map is asking for is being met by the ecu in the actual lambda figure. If your injector duty cycle is not massively high this is a good thing as it means the other components such as the reg and pump are most likely O.K. So your car doesen't really have a problem with it's fuelling as it is making what it is asked to by the map.

 

[8bit]

I get what you're saying, my understanding was that extra fuel in the mixture was used at higher engine speeds in order to keep the power up and to reduce cylinder temps. I was told this by the dyno operator (a well-known and respected guy in this field around here) and this was corroborated by numerous people on here. Are you saying this isn't the case?

This is the last log I had done including block 031 for lambda values. I'm still unclear as to whether the two values are pre- and post-cat, or actual vs. requested, I've been told both. If it's actual vs. requested then there's something wrong with the map as it should be richening up as the revs increase but if (as I suspect) it's pre-and post-cat then something else is amiss somewhere.

Saturday	4	September	2010	14:58:15:65413	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0 (x64)	Data version: 20100630									
1ML 906 032 A		1.8l R4/5VT         0002													
															
	Group A:	010				Group B:	031				Group C:	115			
		RPM	Load	Load	Ign. Timing		Lambda Factor	Lambda Factor	Bin. Bits	Bin. Bits		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME					TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 %	 °BTDC	STAMP					STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar
	109.95	1720	13.5	5.5	-6.8	110.23	1.99	1.05	        	        	110.53	1720	14.3	990	1000
	110.85	1680	13.5	5.1	-7.5	111.14	1.99	1.05	        	        	111.44	1640	13.5	990	1000
	111.74	1600	13.5	5.1	-7.5	112.04	1.99	1.05	        	        	112.34	1520	13.5	990	1000
	112.65	1480	13.5	4.7	-7.5	112.95	1.99	1.05	        	        	113.25	1320	13.5	990	1000
	113.55	1280	13.5	4.3	-8.3	113.85	1.99	1.05	        	        	114.15	1200	13.5	990	1000
	114.46	1160	14.3	4.7	-5.3	114.76	1.99	0.95	        	        	115.06	1200	21.8	990	990
	115.36	1240	78.9	58	12	115.67	0.84	0.95	        	        	115.97	1360	81.2	1510	1040
	116.28	1440	83.5	66.7	12.8	116.57	0.97	0.95	        	        	116.87	1640	90.2	1680	1140
	117.18	1720	93.2	78.8	12.8	117.48	0.96	0.95	        	        	117.78	1960	100.8	1850	1270
	118.08	2080	108.3	91.4	11.3	118.39	0.96	0.95	        	        	118.69	2320	127.8	1890	1510
	118.99	2480	136.8	98.8	10.5	119.29	0.98	0.95	        	        	119.59	2760	160.9	1800	1900
	119.9	2960	169.9	100	3.8	120.2	0.94	0.95	        	        	120.5	3280	160.9	1820	1860
	120.8	3440	159.4	100	12	121.1	0.96	0.95	        	        	121.4	3760	158.6	1830	1830
	121.71	3920	160.9	100	14.3	122.01	0.96	0.95	        	        	122.31	4240	157.9	1820	1840
	122.61	4400	159.4	100	17.3	122.92	0.95	0.95	        	        	123.22	4720	152.6	1810	1830
	123.52	4880	155.6	100	15.8	123.82	0.95	0.95	        	        	124.44	5160	158.6	1850	1800
	124.73	5400	163.9	100	15	125.03	0.98	0.95	        	        	125.33	5680	159.4	1920	1890
	125.63	5800	160.9	100	15.8	125.93	0.94	0.95	        	        	126.23	6040	156.4	1880	1880
	126.54	6200	157.9	99.6	17.3	126.84	0.94	0.95	        	        	127.14	6400	151.1	1790	1860
	127.44	6480	150.4	99.6	19.5	127.74	0.95	0.95	        	        	128.05	6680	142.1	1640	1760
	128.35	6360	12	8.2	8.3	128.66	0.77	0.96	        	        	128.96	5320	14.3	990	1110

 

[tsrperformance]

fuel

Hi what your dyno guys are saying is right the fuelling will increase to keep the cylinders and EGT's cooler. What age is your leon? what you are seeing is actual and requested lambda, if that is a mapped car then they haven't touched your fuel map as 225's stock run .95 fuel, which anyone in tuning will tell you is to lean but it is how they are standard. What map are you running?

 

[ibizacupra]

Yeah meant to update this but forgot, they flashed it back to standard map - there was less power lower down as the boost wasnt kicking in as early as it was with the remap, but at higher revs there was not a huge amount of difference to be honest... my laptop was broken so couldnt log it back on standard map unfortunately..

then reflashed the forge map back on and it is back to how it was before feels the same and I did a quick log and still seem to be hitting around the 0.95 lambda values....

In fairness to Forge, they did offer to flash it back to standard and give me my money back, which does go along with their brilliant reputation for customer service, but I said I am willing to try a few more things such as FPR, maybe injectors / fuel pump if they are not too big a job first.

A little bit stumped now to be honest......

Have you asked Forge what afr request they would expect from this map?
They would I imagine have logs of equivalent vehicle to yours as comparison.

Yours would'nt be the only car to run leaner under boost than you might expect. I have seen quite a few since having my dyno and logging everything I can think of.

 

[ibizacupra]

Well guess that still leaves fuel pump and FPR, only thing is I don't know how you'd check that either of these was working properly without swapping it for another one. Have a search on here or post, don't think FPRs are very much to buy but fuel pumps are about £80. You could check the vacuum hose that goes to the FPR, think it runs under the manifold.

Cupra Ross had a thread on a similar issue to this, think I posted it in this one already. Turned out his problem was the fuel pump. I'll try and find that thread and have another read over it.

Might be worth finding other folks that have had a Forge remap on their car and see if any of them have had similar issues?

I cant see it being anything like fpr, pump etc... The logs show the requested fueling is being achieved, and the discrepency being chased here is its asking for 0.9x fueling under boost not a 0.8x level which is more appropriate to lbt

The map is getting the fueling it is asking for.
You can verify this by initially looking at block 032 and seeing what the fuel trims are sitting at, and then logging block 001, and 031 and watching the lambda fuel adjust during the power run.

The logs as posted show the map to be a conservative one relative to some in boost terms, and fueling which is'nt hardly adjusted from stock at all.

 

[8bit]

Thanks a lot Bill. I should have mentioned, my car is not remapped, as far as I know it's the stock 225 OEM map that's on mine. In view of that, does that change your opinion on the AFRs? Last time I had the fuel trims checked it was showing about -7.6 on the one that shows "under-load" trim (can't remember which is additive and which is multiplacitive). Looking at my logs and graphs on this page above, could it be that I have a dodgy remap on my car or does it look stock to you too?

Would a remap from a reputable tuner fix this in my case?

 

[ibizacupra]

given yours is stock its behaving like stock

 

[8bit]

OK, so what you're saying is the AFR is not supposed to richen up as revs increase in my case, have I got that right?

 

[ibizacupra]

OK, so what you're saying is the AFR is not supposed to richen up as revs increase in my case, have I got that right?

on std cars they run a lot leaner yes.
remapped not the case... or should'nt be

until it goes into egt protection when it will drop into 0.69-0.75 uber fueling as you will see from block 112 and 031

 

[8bit]

OK well by the sound of it I've been chasing a ghost for the last couple of months so thanks bill for confirming and thanks to tsrperformance for your comments also.

Ben, I guess that leaves you with another suggestion, as Bill says you may want to check with Forge as to what the air/fuel ratios their map specifies.

 

[leon cupra r]

Sorry I've been away back in Huddersfield for a week so hadnt seen all this until today...


Bill, I asked them when they reflashed it what the AFR/Lambda readings should be but the bloke who was doing it could not tell me what they were supposed to be...

I think I will take them up on their offer to flash back to standard, then relog and see how it is behaving.

Bill - my block 32 readings are also showing around -7% on the second block (multiplicative trim) which, as I understand, means that the engine is trying to run rich, but the ECU is leaning off the mixture and pulling back to the 0.953 values that it is running at... is this correct?

Do you have any ideas/explanations as to why this is happening - could it be something along the lines that I have a boost leak somewhere (explaining the low boost values earlier on) making the engine run rich, and the Forge map does not incorperate much alteration of fuelling requests from standard map, so is leaning out the mixture back to the 0.953 value?

Thanks very much all of you for your input it is much appreciated!

 

[8bit]

Thread revival Ben, did you get anywhere with this? I was speaking to someone today who said he thought fuel pump or pressure regulator may be at fault. He said to log block 001 and 115 to check boost and some correction values. Might want to try that if you can?

 

[leon cupra r]

Kept meaning to update this but never got round to digging it out lol.

I took it back to Forge a couple of weeks back, who, true to their word, removed the map, put it back to factory (or their version of factory or whatever) and gave me a full refund, so have nothing but respect for them for that after 12 months, they certainly have stood up to their excellent customer service reputation.

To be honest I havent noticed a huge difference in performance drop, and this is backed up by a couple of logs I did the other day (at work so can't paste them up) where the MAF values still seemed to be peaking around 170ish. Turned the timing forwards 4.5 degrees in unisettings to the point where my CFs were approaching 6, and the MAF values seemed to pull up to around 180 (not sure if this is supposed to happen or not but seems to be running alright either way).

I'm happy with it how it is, not going to look into remapping it again, as I've just had my insurance jump 120 quid from by moving house!! and also my new commute is 50 miles a day so definately going to be looking at a diesel now.

Isnt block 115 req vs actual boost? what are the correction values you talking about on the two blocks?

 

[8bit]

115 is boost figures, yes. Block 001 is something to do with fuelling corrections, this is the ECU adjusting some parameters based on whether it can get enough fuel in or not. Might be worth checking out anyway!

Know what you mean about the insurance, my insurer tried to put mine up by £236 when I moved into my g/f's flat. Thing is it was only round the corner from my previous flat, literally 5 or 6 minutes walk and only the last 2 letters of our postcodes were different!

Sorry to hear you're looking to change car but then 50 miles a day on VPower is going to hurt!

 

[leon cupra r]

Yeah especially now its like 1.35 a litre and I keep ending up stuck in traffic then having to boot it to catch up on time - even though its 95% motorway I am struggling to hit anywhere near 30mpg at the mo! Easily rinsing 50 quid a week, it's definately not nice!

Insurance is an absolute joke, I told them the remap had been taken off so that should make it cheaper, and also it's now on a driveway with locked gates rather than in a public carpark, and its still jumped up! pr!cks!