DPJ's GTRS Eliminator Install and Development

[Jon@VAGWORX]

I fear for pre-turbine personally, although its the best place technically to install one... loose the thermocouple and its clips your turbine on the way out.

mines on turbine outlet 50mm from turbine itself.. worked well for me there.

Lol, i'd rather replace turbo's rather than engines

I'm actually quite shocked you said that Bill.
Your simply not measureing cylinder temps if its post turbo.

 

[ibizacupra]

Lol, i'd rather replace turbo's rather than engines

I'm actually quite shocked you said that Bill.
Your simply not measureing cylinder temps if its post turbo.

shocked you say... but turbo's are running fine and dandy post turbine
your not measuring "cylinder temps" either pre-turbine tho are you - lol

works for me, and significantly better than not measuring at all... allow for a temp gradient post turbine and you will see whats going on adequately.

 

[traumapat]

Some say he has a sponge of a brain like a new born baby, others claim that the knowledge was leeched into his mind from the front bumper he used to run

All we know, is he's call DPJ

deffo the bumper..

 

[DPJ]

good advise from m0rk re egt's if now looking at timing...
I cant remember if your running your water/meth on these logs or not.. for its contribution to afr or not.. ign timing, and or pull, will be balance of CF,EGT and lambda (but you know all that already)

some great prpogress Dave.
well done

Cheers Bill. Yes, I'm running 50% wmi, it just isn't showing on lamda, I assume because none is being burnt. I'll try increasing the timing now and see it that makes the lambda value drop....

Yeah, sounds like your getting there.

Personally i'd fit an egt into the manifold, as i wouldn't care what the temps are post turbo, its cylinder temps that i want to know.

Thanks Jon.
That's the big question, or rather dilemma for me.
I haven't a big problem with taking the cast ATP manifold off and drilling/tapping for a sensor. However, I'm kind of nervous of undoing mani>turbo bolts. Last time (on my K03S) I went to undo them, the bolts had turned to case-hardened cheese and snapped off into the turbo. (I've got A4 stainless bolts in this time, but I'm still very apprehensive.)

My real feeling is that if I take that ATP mani off, I don't want to put it back on again - in which case I'd be moving from GTRS Eliminator to a proper Disco Potato.

.....Or I get a boss fitted to my DP. - but if that has to come off, would I be better ditching the K03 style fitting and moving to..........

.........or a strap-on boss with an external sensor - not hugely accurate, but better than nothing......

I fear for pre-turbine personally, although its the best place technically to install one... loose the thermocouple and its clips your turbine on the way out.

mines on turbine outlet 50mm from turbine itself.. worked well for me there.

Yes, in an ideal world......... I think if I invested more ££££ in turbo/engine, I'd become increasingly concerned about minimising the chance of the setup lunching itself.

At the moment, I think I'll be happy to try and prove it is possible to get good reliable bhp from the eliminator. After that, it's another ball game as we all know. Bottom end, head ............
This has been frustrating, but a load of fun in learning.

deffo the bumper..

Trouble is Pat, the bumper went to the local tip late last year. The brain isn't exactly the latest model either..........

 

[traumapat]

[
Trouble is Pat, the bumper went to the local tip late last year. The brain isn't exactly the latest model either..........[/QUOTE]


dont remove the rear spoiler... it could all be over .

grand job. keep it up

 

[ibizacupra]

Yes, in an ideal world......... I think if I invested more ££££ in turbo/engine, I'd become increasingly concerned about minimising the chance of the setup lunching itself.

my engine was built in oct 2005, has run 2 race seasons, and test days, and remains intact with post turbine EGT measurement.
You wont get cylinder temps unless you tap each runner and monitor all 4...then what are you goingt to do about it?

Just allow for a temperature gradient across the unit and tune accordingly. dont get too hung up on it "has" to be pre-turbine else it going to "melt your engine" as thats simply not the case in my experience.

For ref: Mine reads 850-920'C post turbine on its inlet stream direct onto the sensor in race use. So far so good since Oct 2005

 

[Jon@VAGWORX]

my engine was built in oct 2005, has run 2 race seasons, and test days, and remains intact with post turbine EGT measurement.
You wont get cylinder temps unless you tap each runner and monitor all 4...then what are you goingt to do about it?

Just allow for a temperature gradient across the unit and tune accordingly. dont get too hung up on it "has" to be pre-turbine else it going to "melt your engine" as thats simply not the case in my experience.

For ref: Mine reads 850-920'C post turbine on its inlet stream direct onto the sensor in race use. So far so good since Oct 2005

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Imo, your reading turbo temps, better than nothing,yes, but only just. By the time the gases pass through the turbo you may not even see a combined cylinder temp increase of 100 degrees, or atleast think nothing of it, due to continual temp fluctuation.
Yes, in the manifold it isn't measuring seperate cylinder temps, but once you get used to what temps are and when, you'll soon be able to tell when somethings up.
I run an egt in my manifold and a wideband sensor after the turbo (albeit 10" away)which gives me temp outputs aswell, the two measurements have no relation to eachother at all.

Obviously its your engine, do what you will, but for the sake of a boss in the right place i really don't see the hardship/arguement.

 

[DPJ]

Taking the timing beyond T9

I've added 3° of timing using unisettings. (Annoyingly, my laptop battery was nearly flat tonight so I only got a couple of runs in )

Group A:	'003			Group B:	'020		
Idle speed	Air mass in	Throt Angle	Ignit Angle	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization
700-820 rpm	2.0-4.5 g/s	0.2-4.0%	0-12 BTDC				
 /min	 g/s	%	 °ATDC	 CF	 CF	 CF	 CF
4200	152.19	99.6	12.8	0	0	0	3
4560	182.97	100	10.5	0	0	0	3
5000	197.56	100	12	0	0	0	3
5360	203.06	100	12.8	0	0	0	3
5720	207.19	100	13.5	0	0	0	3
6000	208.08	100	20.3	0	0	0	3
6280	220.58	100	21	0	0	0	2.3
6520	215.53	100	23.3	0	0	0	1.5
6760	217.53	100	25.5	0	0	0	0
7000	211.44	99.6	19.5	0	0	0	0
7160	212.78	100	19.5	0	0	0	0

Strangely, the a/f ratio hasn't dropped.....

A	B	C	D	E	F	G	H	I	J
2320	2.72	17.44	0.821	0.821	0.0019	1.42	12.07	17.15	0.98
3560	10.88	95.39	0.805	0.813	0.0118	8.72	11.83	103.22	1.08
3800	12.58	116.89	0.805	0.797	0.0146	10.77	11.83	127.39	1.09
4120	14.62	149.97	0.789	0.805	0.0184	13.56	11.60	157.32	1.05
4520	15.98	180.08	0.805	0.805	0.0221	16.27	11.83	192.48	1.07
4960	15.98	196.42	0.797	0.805	0.0242	17.85	11.72	209.12	1.06
5320	15.64	205.31	0.797	0.805	0.0254	18.74	11.72	219.52	1.07
5600	15.64	208.08	0.789	0.805	0.0268	19.72	11.60	228.76	1.10
5920	14.96	214.5	0.797	0.805	0.0271	19.94	11.72	233.66	1.09
6200	14.28	218.28	0.789	0.805	0.0271	19.94	11.60	231.24	1.06
6440	14.28	220.42	0.805	0.805	0.0281	20.71	11.83	245.07	1.11
6680	13.26	215.19	0.782	0.805	0.0271	19.95	11.50	229.30	1.07
6880	13.26	218.67	0.782	0.805	0.0279	20.54	11.50	236.16	1.08
7040	12.24	208.97	0.766	0.813	0.0263	19.40	11.26	218.50	1.05
7200	12.92	213.64	0.75	0.805	0.0284	20.95	11.03	230.96	1.08

A	rpm								
B	Inj ms								
C	Air Mass g/s								
D	Lambda Actual								
E	Lambda Target								
F	Fuel Vol litres								
G	Fuel Weight g/s								
H	A/F								
I	Acual Air Mass g/s								
J	Scaling

I'll add a little more timing and try again tomorrow..........

 

[PhilW]

Looking good so far dave.


How does it feel generally, quickest its been? Be nice to get a figure for this hard work as well i bet.

 

[DPJ]

Yes Phil - it feels at its best so far. I'm aiming to get it to an 'acceptable' state of tune for the Awesome RR day 26/01/08.....

 

[Wilko]

Looks good dave. What about the meth input ? What's your maf ID? Measure it accurately.

 

[DPJ]

Looks good dave. What about the meth input ? What's your maf ID? Measure it accurately.

That's running 50/50 w:m, John. I'll measure the i/d of my 80mm o/d Maf housing later.

 

[ibizacupra]

Obviously its your engine, do what you will, but for the sake of a boss in the right place i really don't see the hardship/arguement.

Yes it is my engine & we will have to agree to disagree. Mine has worked perfectly well post turbine, on turbine outlet gas stream as close as I could get it.

The arguement (you seem to have forgotten) was the boss pre-turbine vs the risk of loosing the thermocouple tip through my expensive turbo is not something I want to risk.

Imo, your reading turbo temps

Exactly...

I have posted post turbine temps, have run 2 race seasons, and from back in the Jabba days my EGT's are much lower, and turbo housings etc are reliable now with improved tuning.

Main measurement is AFR with a check on EGT's... not like so many people seem to do, which is tune to EGT's only which is nutts to me.

 

[DPJ]

What's your maf ID? Measure it accurately.

John, my maf housing is near enough 69.5mm id.

 

[m0rk]

Main measurement is AFR with a check on EGT's... not like so many people seem to do, which is tune to EGT's only which is nutts to me.

that makes sense... I've been reading around the forum & that is backed up with direct comments (rich map, low egt)

I guess you can get bore wash, would anything else get damaged from such blatant overfuelling?

 

[Wilko]

John, my maf housing is near enough 69.5mm id.

Dave
A standard lcr/tt 75mm od plastic maf housing is 69.7mm ID last time I measured one, So yours should be right for stage 3 revo code to read accurately. Might have aged and be reading a little low though.

With your wm, you're probably 240ish g/s. If you're maintaining 1.5 bar boost to the liiter you should see 240-250, so it's about right.

Does the maf have screens in it? Whats your wm nozzle size?

 

[ibizacupra]

that makes sense... I've been reading around the forum & that is backed up with direct comments (rich map, low egt)

I guess you can get bore wash, would anything else get damaged from such blatant overfuelling?

I have seen both incarnations of 'approach' to mapping from seriously lean and damaging, to overly rich and not damaging on egt's but not as "crisp" as it is when running closer to 0.8 than 0.65

its all a balancing act. control of egt's and far better fueling control on mine when running CC than previous.. which was slightly faster spool but burned out housings & distortions etc.

 

[DPJ]

Dave
A standard lcr/tt 75mm od plastic maf housing is 69.7mm ID last time I measured one, So yours should be right for stage 3 revo code to read accurately. Might have aged and be reading a little low though.

With your wm, you're probably 240ish g/s. If you're maintaining 1.5 bar boost to the liiter you should see 240-250, so it's about right.

Does the maf have screens in it? Whats your wm nozzle size?

Yes, sorry if my previous statements over maf housing size have been misleading.
No such thing as an old maf with me, John. The element can only be 4months / 1500 miles old. If it's under-reading, it'll affect fuelling...... should I get another?
Yes, my maf has both screens at the front.

Since I had earlier doubts over the way forward with the wm, I'm running a 175cc nozzle at 150psi, 50/50. If we can prove it's effective I'll get a 60cc nozzle and double up. (I think 225cc total should be right at 180psi, so 235 at a tad less should do it?)

 

[Wilko]

Judgeing by your a:f calculated airflow, and the boost you're running, your maf is under reading. What do your fuel trims look like?
I've got a couple of spare sensors that we can try out next week at awesome if you like.
I's do your calcs on averaged a:f a bit, as the readings your getting are only 3 a second, and the chance of an a:f reading and airflow reading being at the same time are low.

Your maf seems to under read even out of boost, so it looks like a likely candidate.

Your wm seems to be giving good knock control, and you have great timing advance for a small port, so I'd leave it be.

 

[DPJ]

Judgeing by your a:f calculated airflow, and the boost you're running, your maf is under reading. What do your fuel trims look like?

Fuel trims looked fine last time I logged them. I'll do them again tonight.

I've got a couple of spare sensors that we can try out next week at awesome if you like.

I'd really appreciate that if you've time. Thank you.

I's do your calcs on averaged a:f a bit, as the readings your getting are only 3 a second, and the chance of an a:f reading and airflow reading being at the same time are low.

Your maf seems to under read even out of boost, so it looks like a likely candidate.

Your wm seems to be giving good knock control, and you have great timing advance for a small port, so I'd leave it be.

Am I ok to try add a little more timing?