Strange micro vibrations in interior when idling (warm and cold engine)

[broslowski]

Hello.

First of all thanks a lot for taking a look in to my first tread.

I am very proud owner of Seat Ibiza FR 2016 with engine 1.2 TSI 81kW (e211 type). Got around 2000km so burn in process should be finished for engine.

Everything runs fine, no problems at all generally but there is one thing i can not figure out.

COLD START:
It is pretty standard for TSI engines, that they got special cold start procedure - lot of fuel is used, RPM varies, and engine vibrate A LOT. No i am not talking about diesel like sound, afaik this is completely normal as engine is using injectors with very high pressure, injecting fuel directly to combustion chamber.

I am talking about strange micro vibrations from engine while idling. This driving me nuts. During cold start and for about 5 minutes it is acceptable but during this time, i can feel slight vibrations on car floor, steering wheel, gearbox, and also on seats.

WARM INDLING:
My main complain is about the fact that this started to occur even engine is warm and i mean 90 coolant and 90-100 oil temps after several km. Vibrations are much less noticeable, but in car that is so comfortable like Ibiza FR it is still VERY ANNOYING.

Aside from this engines is running as designed.

I will definitely go to service with this, but do not wanna rush it, car is pretty new (1 month year old ), it was made in Martorelli (afaik one of the best they got in spain) and engine with gearbox was shipped there directly from Germany (decoded from VIN).

Any suggestions what i can check before requesting warranty service check?

 

[RUM4MO]

Hum, I think that all these 1.2TSI engines are built by Skoda in Skodaland, maybe moved to Germany to build into a power train module, ie engine + gearbox. I think all Ibizas are build in a single facility in Spain.

Do you not think that the "micro" vibrations that you are experiencing are not just "forced" resonances or otherwise called sympathetic resonances or "beating" as assemblies of slightly differing rotational speeds come into phase then out of phase again?

You used the term "burn in" as meaning running in, does that mean that you work in the environmental test part of a company - I'm just curious as I used to so recognise that name well!

 

[broslowski]

Hello RUM4MO - thanks for reply.

Fist things first, lets get facts about car straight.Not All ibizas are build in single facility in spain, this is simply not true and you can easily tell by VIN code decode. I am from Slovakia (middle Europe) and for our market VAG is producing Ibizas like this.
Standard Ibiza (no FR or Cupra) - all engines from Skoda - Mlada boleslava. Manufacture of whole care is done in one of 3 active factory in spain.(afaik NOT Martorelli)

Ibiza FR (my car) - as this car can have a LOT of premium configurations like adaptive suspension, different seats, totaly different interior quality than basic Ibiza etc... it is made exclusively made in Martorelli along side with Audis A3, Q5 , .... In this case, engine is supplied from Germany (also with gearbox ofc) and it is simply "rebranded" but totally same 1.2 TFSI e211 Audi is using for their cars. Believe me, quality is much better here than with engines from Mlada Boleslava. AFAIK only Ibiza FR is made like this. (Hybrid GER/SPAIN ). It also make a lot of sense from Martorelli as they do not need to supply engines from 2 countries (Audiengine - GER, Seatengine - CZ) so they do it like this for only Seat they are making (In case of Ibiza FR it is Hybrid GER-engine/SPAIN-put it all together)

In case of Cupra i am not 100% sure (not much peoples running cupras over here) but i got confirmation from my friend that they should be all made in German factory

I will definitely check what sympathetic resonances stands for and let you know, thanks for a tip.

I am working as QA engineer so maybe that is why i used that term. At the moment i am focusing in to Software QA DEV OPS, but before i was more hardware oriented (IT components testing, testing methodology creating, use cases, etc...).

 

[RUM4MO]

I'm surprised that SEAT are now building Ibizas in factories outside Spain, I just did not think that the worldwide sales of Ibiza would justify that, unless they are finding that some areas are imposing high import tariffs if they do not maybe assemble kits in these countries, I'd doubt if there is any body fabrication going on, as I said probably just kitted car sets of bits to appease local regulations.

I'm also very surprised that you have discovered that SEAT is sharing engine supplies with Audi and these 1.2TSI are being assembled in Germany, it makes no sense financially, it might work for an Audi A1 with its price tag, but leave SEAT over spending a bit on parts. As far as I know, the 1.2TSI engine, when it is used by Audi, is manufactured in CZ.

By the way, a 2.0T engine fitted to an Audi is same as that fitted to a VW and a Skoda, and even probably a SEAT if they are using that engine size and same output power. What will be area/marque specific with be the source region of the ancillaries - ie generally speaking a SEAT Ibiza with a 1.2TSI engine made in Spain will have "made in Spain" alternator and starter etc, and a VW Polo with a 1.2TSI engine made in Spain will have ancillaries "made in Germany" etc. I think even my wife's 5 door Polo 1.2TSI manufactured in SA will have "made in Germany" ancillaries - though lots of cheaper to make body trim parts and tyres etc "made in SA" to keep the work content up to comply with needs to sell new imported cars into SA.

 

[broslowski]

I was very suprised too and to be honest i did not believed my dealer. So i went investigation (got importer on phone, get some info from other overs of this model ). Funny thing is that i got o LOT of info because i had HUGHE problem getting my already payed car because in time i put money on table, "old" ibizas stopped accepting any new orders because they are changing manufacture line to new model with vag mqb (new ibizas coming soon to market) .

I needed literary beg importer to put my order thru already closed system, after many phonecalls i was finally able to get in touch with guy in Martorelli and they putted my car to production from inside factory system (global system importers are using was already locked for orders).

Just for fun of it, every single sicker from engine space says "Made in Germany" Funny

Anyway... i was able to debug a bit. And it look like i am getting this problems exclusively when i am using A/C. So it look like air-condition compressor is a problem. I get it, those tinny compressors used in this cars can not be that good so it look like that i will accept the fact that ones A/C is turned on i will get mini vibrations in car cabin. Not very happy about it to be honest, i will make complain after 15 000km (1. service is recommended after 30 000 or 1Year - long life interval, but fck that, already in contact with guys from local audi centrum for check after 15 000).

Another testing today, lets see how it goes, i just had quick drive yesterday so maybe i am all wrong

 

[RUM4MO]

Oh well, you have been digging deeply into this, so I've learned something new!

When I was a lot younger, and buying Ford Escorts new, I always bought the Ghia versions - as well as having more toys in them, at that time they were all built in Germany and the quality was seriously better than the ones built in Spain(?) and certainly in UK!

The AC causing these micro vibrations, it might just be down to the refrigerant gas charge being too high or too low, these small systems need to get a "critical" weight of R134A loaded in - ie they will not tolerate over or under weight loading as much as larger commercial/industrial will.
The actual control system for regulating the amount of gas being allowed into the pipework can also be the cause of noises, I've forgotten but I think that these systems use a fixed orifice and the displacement of the compressor can be varied to suit the required cooling demand, ie load. Of course if any of the steel pipework is touching parts of the car body that it should not, or is not being held clamped within an absorbent (resilient) clamp, then it could make some nasty noises.

I don't know if you read anything about these compressors in general, well that current type of Sanden variable displacement compressor, but at the beginning of production of these Polo/Ibiza/Fabia models, there was a higher that expected incidence of compressor being said to have been shipped from Sanden with debris, ie remains of the milling and assembly process in the body of them, and that either caused early life failure or a lot of unacceptable mechanical noise - that info is just based on what I have read on these forums.

 

[KXL]

You idling in gear or in neutral?

 

[broslowski]

neutral for sure

Now i am 99% sure vibrations are from AC compressor

 

[KXL]

ah, just realised you have the 1.2 TSI (4 cylinder). I've got the 1.0 TSI (3 Cylinder). was about to suggest that the vibration (which I do feel on the pedals sometimes in mine) is due to it being 3 cylinder, but usually before anymore can be felt on the pedals, engine would shut off due to start/stop.