Leon Cupra R Performance

[jonathanp]

I doubt very much he ran a 14.2 STANDARD mate. I seem to remember him running a 14.3 with Remap...

he mentioned it on the clio vs revo LCR thread

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showpost.php?p=813947&postcount=7

 

[225]

The two are so evenly matched on power/bhp I really doubt there would be anything in it once moving. Driver, gear change, etc will soon sort out tenth of second advantages. Great looking cars the FIATs.

 

[corp]

My mate has a coupe 20v turbo and it is quick and slow in equal measure.

The lag is very bad, he has had problems with old grannies at the lights etc, infact, I left him for dead in an MGF at the lights (traction much better) up to about 80.

However, it can do 50-70 in second, 70-100 in third at a blistering rate, much quicker than the cupra r. As a consequence of this gearing set up, try flooring one at around 50-60 in top gear, you will find it very slow.....I would guess seconds slower than the R. Add some hills with corners and you will find the R punch out without using ratios that cause excessive traction problems, maybe except tight 2nd gear ones.

I think it definately requires a sixth gear, as in the special edition one. As someone mentioned earlier, the 0-100 is quick because of 3rd running to 100. I would imagine always having to drop a cog to get the thing moving in normal day to day driving. I think torque at the wheels is related to power x rpm, therefore, 6 cogs result in more torque produced at wheels more often???

I think it looks pretty good even now, and actually seems like a special car when you are inside or out. Something the R is not.

Overall, I think the R faster more of the time, the coupe only excels in a few stat orientated areas e.g. 0-100.

 

[S1MMA]

Peak power was at 5850rpm and peak Torque 3500rpm. The torque Curve does tail off very very slightly, but not a massive amount really... The car pulls well all the way to about 6500rpm to.
If you're at Pod this year mate. I'll give you a run.... ?

sure, I should be at the pod probably with that whippersnapper cupra_jeff and a few other mates sometime this year.

Haha alright mate !! I wondered how long it would be before you got here, you trading in the punto and getting a real car ?

Mine doesn't overboost to as much as 20 psi more like 18 psi... you are right about the agressive overboost, but don't forget though that is on a K03, the bigger K04 and twin intercoolers does help matters a lot !!

As much as I like the LCR don't bother at Santa Pod, you will get cained down the standing 1/4 as its all about the launch and the non-lsd seats don't really like launching (although i did get a 2.19s 60' once)

Not sure I agree with the Fiat being the best handling car (along with a corrado ??!! nice 1975 chassis !!) that big old lump of, odd cylinder, unbalanced pig iron you call an engine can't be good for the weight

Hi mate, how's the polo going? Had any grannies mistaking it for their own polo at sainsbury recently? The coupe 20VT is a great handling car, not much body roll, and a great rear suspension setup along with the LSD makes it a very entertaining car. I remember losing you round the business park once when we were having a play, and that roundabout in maidstone when pete was in your car! The old torsion rear bean in the polo's is quite a limiting factor, but now your car is as low as a go cart there's no way you'd keep up with me on normal bumpy roads (I'll let you have the smooth tracks though).

My best mate used to have a Fiat 20V Turbo and although it was extremely fast in a straight line (sounded like Darth Vader when flooring it in first) he used to say it handled very poorly. While he'll admit that down the strip it would have beaten his brothers CTR and my other best mates Integra type R, he admits that it was no way near as planted on corners...He say's the best handling cars he's ever driven (handling wise) are his old clio williams, Integra Type R and FQ340.

One issue with Fiat Coupe's is that the front wishbones do wear out and this in turn screws up the handling. It's possible that your friends car had this problem - hence why he didnt rate it. Any reviews of the Coupe will say it's a fine handling car, but you do need to review parts on what is an aeging italian car.

The lag is very bad, he has had problems with old grannies at the lights etc, infact, I left him for dead in an MGF at the lights (traction much better) up to about 80.

Thats interesting, as my 2.2s 60ft time doesn't really match what you're saying. You have to know how to drive this sort of car to get fast launches, if you just pull away using 1500rpm and floor it there will be lag obviously, but not catching an MGF till 80mph? Pull the other one mate, he would be infront by 50.

I think it definately requires a sixth gear, as in the special edition one. As someone mentioned earlier, the 0-100 is quick because of 3rd running to 100. I would imagine always having to drop a cog to get the thing moving in normal day to day driving. I think torque at the wheels is related to power x rpm, therefore, 6 cogs result in more torque produced at wheels more often???

I think it looks pretty good even now, and actually seems like a special car when you are inside or out. Something the R is not.

Overall, I think the R faster more of the time, the coupe only excels in a few stat orientated areas e.g. 0-100.

I think you are a bit confused here mate, torque at the wheels is determined by flywheel torque and an equation utilising gear ratio's. Its not how many gears you have that changes this (if the first 5 are the same ratio's), its what ratios they are that changes it (long or shorter ratios). The 6 speed coupe's have the same 5 gears as a normal coupe 20VT with a very slightly adjusted final ratio. So you can do maybe 1 or 2 more mph in every gear in the 5 speed model. Accounts to nothing on the road as I've compared my car to a friends LE many times with the same mods and they perform the same.

the coupe does not just excel in a few stats, although you have to keep it above 2500rpm to keep it in the powerband. If you want to cruise at 1000rpm then buy a diesel. If you want to make progress or have a play with another car, then you're going to be above 2500rpm arent you? Think about that. Like I said, you can catch a coupe off guard in the wrong gear, but then if a coupe catches a revo Leon Cupra R off guard (coupe in 2nd, cupra in 3rd) the leon wouldnt be seen for dust.

 

[corp]

I think you are a bit confused here mate, torque at the wheels is determined by flywheel torque and an equation utilising gear ratio's. Its not how many gears you have that changes this (if the first 5 are the same ratio's), its what ratios they are that changes it (long or shorter ratios). The 6 speed coupe's have the same 5 gears as a normal coupe 20VT with a very slightly adjusted final ratio. So you can do maybe 1 or 2 more mph in every gear in the 5 speed model. Accounts to nothing on the road as I've compared my car to a friends LE many times with the same mods and they perform the same.

the coupe does not just excel in a few stats, although you have to keep it above 2500rpm to keep it in the powerband. If you want to cruise at 1000rpm then buy a diesel. If you want to make progress or have a play with another car, then you're going to be above 2500rpm arent you? Think about that. Like I said, you can catch a coupe off guard in the wrong gear, but then if a coupe catches a revo Leon Cupra R off guard (coupe in 2nd, cupra in 3rd) the leon wouldnt be seen for dust.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am!! torque at the wheels is a relationship between gear ratios and torque produced. I was getting confused with power LOL. However, my point was that the long ratios left the coupe with an in gear acceleration problem. Does this not still apply?

 

[Ruddmeister]

Ladies please stop bickering.

Life is too short.

Both cars are of similar performance.....both appeal to different tastes.

This is shaping up like another pointless LCR Vs CTR thread

 

[S1MMA]

Yes, I am!! torque at the wheels is a relationship between gear ratios and torque produced. I was getting confused with power LOL. However, my point was that the long ratios left the coupe with an in gear acceleration problem. Does this not still apply?

The long ratio's in the coupe means that you have to select the lowest gear available if you want to accelerate very hard (above 2500rpm anyway), so you are right about that, pootling along at 2000rpm in 5th a coupe is not going to lunge forward if you floor it. Shorter gear ratio's do give better acceleration due to higher torque at the wheels, although the trade off is that you can't hold that harder acceleration as long as a longer gear car (with the same engine), so where you change up - the longer geared car holds another x mph at now higher acceleration than you (as you've changed up). hope that makes sense, its a trade off, shorter geared cars do accelerate harder, but require more gear changes to get to x mph. Cars that rev higher (like an S2000 for example) take advantage of having high torque to the wheels in gear as they can get away with having shorter ratio's as they can still hold acceleration to the same speed as a car that doesnt rev as much - but has longer ratios. I know this isnt written very well (I'm trying to make it simple), does it make sense?

No one is bickering, you guys must be very tame if you think this thread has got out of hand, its a good discussion IMO. Just puttin the facts across.

 

[corp]

The long ratio's in the coupe means that you have to select the lowest gear available if you want to accelerate very hard (above 2500rpm anyway), so you are right about that, pootling along at 2000rpm in 5th a coupe is not going to lunge forward if you floor it. Shorter gear ratio's do give better acceleration due to higher torque at the wheels, although the trade off is that you can't hold that harder acceleration as long as a longer gear car (with the same engine), so where you change up - the longer geared car holds another x mph at now higher acceleration than you (as you've changed up). hope that makes sense, its a trade off, shorter geared cars do accelerate harder, but require more gear changes to get to x mph. Cars that rev higher (like an S2000 for example) take advantage of having high torque to the wheels in gear as they can get away with having shorter ratio's as they can still hold acceleration to the same speed as a car that doesnt rev as much - but has longer ratios. I know this isnt written very well (I'm trying to make it simple), does it make sense?

No one is bickering, you guys must be very tame if you think this thread has got out of hand, its a good discussion IMO. Just puttin the facts across.

Agreed, what you say makes sense. Are you sure that 2500rpm is the threshold for rapid progress, I would have thought more 3000 based on my friends one???? Also, is there more turbo lag due to the older technology involved???

 

[Ruddmeister]

No one is bickering, you guys must be very tame if you think this thread has got out of hand, its a good discussion IMO. Just puttin the facts across.

Yes I'm very tame.....nobody said the thread got out of hand it's just that this type of thread has been done to death

(where is that Yawn smilie.....can't find it)

 

[S1MMA]

peak torque is produces at 2500rpm, but yes I know what you mean by the 3000rpm comment.

There is more turbo lag due to the turbo being different on the Fiat Coupe (than say a K03 or K04), it's got a garrett T28 turbo (same as the Nissan 200SX or Escort Cossie). Just a characteristic of the turbo really, there are options of hybrids with faster spoolup avail if you want to go down that route. Really speaking, cars like the MK5 Golf GTI or most stock 1.8T engines dont produce much boost standard so have smaller turbo's - which are good for spoolup but not great for holding boost high up in the rev range. So again, its give and take in this area also.

 

[Tallpaul]

well i think this thread makes a nice CHANGE from the LCR v CTR threads.

I'm not bored, interesting to here an owners opinion of a cars performance rather than the usual 'i thrashed one on the dual-carriage way, therefore they are slow and sh*t' comments.

 

[corp]

well i think this thread makes a nice CHANGE from the LCR v CTR threads.

I'm not bored, interesting to here an owners opinion of a cars performance rather than the usual 'i thrashed one on the dual-carriage way, therefore they are slow and sh*t' comments.

agreed

 

[S1MMA]

I know VAG products very well, I appreciate the smooth power delivery of the 1.8T engine and having driven an early MK4 GTI T they don't suffer much lag at all. I'm a regular on Club GTI also, having owned a GTI for 4 years.

I'm not biased towards Fiats, the Coupe 20VT is the only Fiat I'll ever own or want to own. I know it's strenghts and pitfalls, and I'm no fan of the marque (apart from the co's the marque owns, Ferrari and Maserati!) . Its a great car in its own right, and shouldnt be underestimated.

So I have pretty much a well rounded opinion and experience, and I don't have any bias to be honest. It's all too easy to get caught up in a marque and defend it to the death, I'll save that time for when I buy a TVR or similar! Some people can't see beyond what they own or appreciate what's out there, or they're just too f*cking stupid and just open their mouths when they don't know sh1t. These people usually are the ones that ruin this type of thread, shame really.

 

[Ruddmeister]

Some people can't see beyond what they own or appreciate what's out there, or they're just too f*cking stupid and just open their mouths when they don't know sh1t. These people usually are the ones that ruin this type of thread, shame really.

I haven't said anything nasty or offensive just that I thought this was covering old ground.

Why make this a personal attack on me all of a sudden......

I have my right to a view as do you

 

[S1MMA]

I wasnt referring to you mate, just saying people that pipe up on threads saying "yeah I hammered one on a DC, and they're slow" type comments are usually the ones that ruin these threads.

The one liner "they're crap" etc... posts. Nothing to do with what you wrote!

 

[Ruddmeister]

That's good to hear.

 

[keithrann]

I once got taken for a drive in one years back. But, the driver never gave it a good run for its money. So really can't comment on the acceleration or speed. He did give it a bit round a roundabout and my initial impression was that it wasn't that spectacular although may have had bad tyres etc etc.

Sorry can't comment anymore. In regards to my LCR i can't see there being anything in it on the uk roads.

 

[aphix]

With regards to the TCS kicking, i have come to the conclusion that the biggest factor with this is the tyres.

I had a brand new set of Pirelli Pzeros, then a Set of Bridge Stone S-03's then decided to put 2 Goodyear Eagle F1s on the front.

I very rarley see the traction control light come on, nailing it out of roundabouts where i just had very little traction before and lost all my LCR's power through loss of traction.

It made my brother laugh that on some roads.. albeit sometimes slightly damp roads the traction control light still came on through second.

Out of all the cars ive driven, then LCR seems a comptley differnt vehicle with decent tyres.

Rob

 

[Cupra_Jeff]

The long ratio's in the coupe means that you have to select the lowest gear available if you want to accelerate very hard (above 2500rpm anyway), so you are right about that, pootling along at 2000rpm in 5th a coupe is not going to lunge forward if you floor it. Shorter gear ratio's do give better acceleration due to higher torque at the wheels, although the trade off is that you can't hold that harder acceleration as long as a longer gear car (with the same engine), so where you change up - the longer geared car holds another x mph at now higher acceleration than you (as you've changed up). hope that makes sense, its a trade off, shorter geared cars do accelerate harder, but require more gear changes to get to x mph. Cars that rev higher (like an S2000 for example) take advantage of having high torque to the wheels in gear as they can get away with having shorter ratio's as they can still hold acceleration to the same speed as a car that doesnt rev as much - but has longer ratios. I know this isnt written very well (I'm trying to make it simple), does it make sense?

No one is bickering, you guys must be very tame if you think this thread has got out of hand, its a good discussion IMO. Just puttin the facts across.

so you do listen to me then mate ? there was me thinking you were just nodding and not knowing what I'm on about !!

 

[Cupra_Jeff]

peak torque is produces at 2500rpm, but yes I know what you mean by the 3000rpm comment.

There is more turbo lag due to the turbo being different on the Fiat Coupe (than say a K03 or K04), it's got a garrett T28 turbo (same as the Nissan 200SX or Escort Cossie). Just a characteristic of the turbo really, there are options of hybrids with faster spoolup avail if you want to go down that route. Really speaking, cars like the MK5 Golf GTI or most stock 1.8T engines dont produce much boost standard so have smaller turbo's - which are good for spoolup but not great for holding boost high up in the rev range. So again, its give and take in this area also.

also don't forget the compression ratio, the fiat probably has around 8.5:1 which makes it sluggish from lower revs when the turbo hasn't cut in, even when it has that Garrett t28 is a pretty old turbo and was probably even used on some of the later blue top saff cossie lumps..... so the efficiency isn't very high, it has less efficient bearings/ heavier turbine and compressor wheels, less efficient actuation, etc... One good thing is though is that lower compression ratio allows you to run more boost (less chance of detonation) - Bring on Petes 1.3 bar and 300bhp !!

The more efficient flow of the 5 valves per cylinder, higher compression ratio and smaller turbine wheel (less inertia) helps the 1.8 20vT spool up a lot quicker, as proven time and time again side by side with you and pete... but that obviously makes it suffer at higher revs its all a compromise.