What is the best induction kit I should go for?

[Mark300zx]

I think the badger 5 intake has proven benefits, couple it with a cold air intake and I think it will give you a positive outcome

Another little bit of info

Remember that for every 4C increase in air temp, power goes down by about 1%, so 40C increase will result in 10% power loss. This is not an extravagant figure - just stick a temp probe under the bonnet and in a 20C garage it can easily exceed 60C, especially after the car has had a few dyno runs.

 

[sambryant]

More power at idle sounds great remember this, when air is hitting your car at 100mph it will be cold, a cold feed will do nothing while moving. Remember my temps went up by 10 degress so i lost 2.5 % power, so what your saying is, my intake temps wont go up with a cold feed? So dont buy a fmic as a cold feed is better. The only time a cold feed might work is on idle but even then the air wont be rushing into the bay.

 

[Mark300zx]

More power at idle sounds great remember this, when air is hitting your car at 100mph it will be cold, a cold feed will do nothing while moving. Remember my temps went up by 10 degress so i lost 2.5 % power, so what your saying is, my intake temps wont go up with a cold feed? So dont buy a fmic as a cold feed is better. The only time a cold feed might work is on idle but even then the air wont be rushing into the bay.

It takes a little while to get to 100mph

Never said intake temps won't rise with a cold air feed, it is just a nice add on to assist with keeping things slightly cooler, not perfect but for the money it costs, I think it is a worthwhile addition.

If you don't think cold air feed is worth the money, why are you advising buy a heat shield?

Never said don't buy a fmic, they are great but they cost a few hundred quid and a cold air feed costs a hell of a lot less, have both by all means

You are welcome to your thoughts and beliefs but why the objection to a cold air feed, can they be a negative, I don't think there any disadvantages, they take minutes to fit and a few pounds out of your wallet????

 

[sambryant]

Ok fair enought m8. I suggested the heat shield as they secure the filter and maf. i have no objections for cold air feeds but i just dont think they make any difference to our cars thats all. I feel our debate has gone a little to far as its only a cold air feed were talking about. On a plus side they can look pretty when they fill a empty space in the engine bay

 

[traumapat]

If i have a pint of air at 10 degrees and another at 5 degrees, and i compress them both to 1bar ... wont the be the same temp anyway?
Theres more to compress with the 5 degree air so wouldnt it actually equalise the temps?

Bet theres a clever formular for working that out

 

[Mark300zx]

If i have a pint of air at 10 degrees and another at 5 degrees, and i compress them both to 1bar ... wont the be the same temp anyway?
Theres more to compress with the 5 degree air so wouldnt it actually equalise the temps?

Bet theres a clever formular for working that out

The pint of air at 5 degrees will give you more bhp as it contains more oxygen.

There is not more air to compress as they are both 1 pint, the air at 5 degrees is denser if that is what you mean?

 

[traumapat]

The pint of air at 5 degrees will give you more bhp as it contains more oxygen.

There is not more air to compress as they are both 1 pint, the air at 5 degrees is denser if that is what you mean?

yes but the crucial thing is the temp once compressed by the turbo. Isnt the temp dictated by the pressure rather than its temp before it enters.

In other words wouldnt 1.5bar of compressed air always hit the same temp relative to the natural atmosphere? Regardless of the airs starting temp? Bearing in mind the heat is created by the act of compression rather than radiation/ combustion.

 

[Mark300zx]

yes but the crucial thing is the temp once compressed by the turbo. Isnt the temp dictated by the pressure rather than its temp before it enters.

The crucial thing is the temperature of the air entering the cylinder not leaving the turbo.

The temperature of the air entering the turbo is important, as it is denser it will be easier for the turbo to build pressure and keep the compressor cooler, the compression of the air creates heat, plus the turbulence and also the radiated heat from turbo.

In other words wouldnt 1.5bar of compressed air always hit the same temp relative to the natural atmosphere? Regardless of the airs starting temp? Bearing in mind the heat is created by the act of compression rather than radiation/ combustion.

I think you need to look at turbos as a separate entity, it is pumping air and compressing air, to give you an example bigger turbos can create more reliable boost at a higher psi that will produce more bhp for an engine.

The reason they can do this is that the larger turbo can pump more air more efficiently, meaning using less turbulence, the 20 psi on a larger turbo will give more bhp than 20 psi on a smaller turbo with everything else being the same. The reason for this is the air@20 psi on the larger turbo is cooler than the smaller turbo,then more O2 is entering the cylinder and there is less chance of knock occuring.

 

[ibizacupra]

The reason they can do this is that the larger turbo can pump more air more efficiently, meaning using less turbulence, the 20 psi on a larger turbo will give more bhp than 20 psi on a smaller turbo with everything else being the same. The reason for this is the air@20 psi on the larger turbo is cooler than the smaller turbo,then more O2 is entering the cylinder and there is less chance of knock occuring.

Its the flow which enables more power.... boost being the force behind it
compress air to 20psi on a small turbo and a large turbo, whilst both are in their efficiency areas of the maps, I doubt you see such huge charge temp variances, but the larger flowing compressor will physically move more air for the same pressure, hence make more power.. A slightly better example is compare flows between them, and for the same 200g/s flow to pluck a pseudo meaningfull number out of the air, the k04 is working at 1.4bar whilst an equivalent GT30 is pumping 0.7 bar, hence not compressing (heating) the air as much for the same mass airflow. - this all happens further up the engines rev range of course on the larger framed units cos they have more inertia to get going.

 

[Mark300zx]

Its the flow which enables more power.... boost being the force behind it
compress air to 20psi on a small turbo and a large turbo, whilst both are in their efficiency areas of the maps, I doubt you see such huge charge temp variances, but the larger flowing compressor will physically move more air for the same pressure, hence make more power.. A slightly better example is compare flows between them, and for the same 200g/s flow to pluck a pseudo meaningfull number out of the air, the k04 is working at 1.4bar whilst an equivalent GT30 is pumping 0.7 bar, hence not compressing (heating) the air as much for the same mass airflow. - this all happens further up the engines rev range of course on the larger framed units cos they have more inertia to get going.

Naturally the increased flow gives you more bhp, but if both turbos were producing 20psi @5000rpm the larger one would give you more bhp because of the lower charge temperature, I am not sure the efficiency areas of the maps can be applied that well outside of laboratory conditions, but only of use as a guideline.

 

[Ovni_cupraR]

I don't know much about the technical aspect of this debate but one thing I do notice is that on a cold night my lcr pulls a lot harder than on a hot summers day so I've always thought cooler air is better and so I use a cold air feed.

Then again that may be due to the intercoolers working more efficiently because of the lower outside temperature instead of lower intake temps

 

[Captain Cupra]

Air filter setups in terms of heat don't really make huge differences on intake temps as air is having to go throughout the intercooler or (intercoolers) before entering the engine so if the air coming through an open cone is 25 degrees and the air through an airbox is 18 degrees by the time that air is heated up by the turbo it will come out and be cooled to the sane degree before entering the engine anyway, so I would say beside flows characteristics of your filter setup that are important intercooling is more important,


Sent from my IPhone when I should be doing Work!!

 

[Mark300zx]

I think we have gone over it.

 

[traumapat]

I don't know much about the technical aspect of this debate but one thing I do notice is that on a cold night my lcr pulls a lot harder than on a hot summers day so I've always thought cooler air is better and so I use a cold air feed.

Then again that may be due to the intercoolers working more efficiently because of the lower outside temperature instead of lower intake temps

Your right. But again its the IC that controls the temp of the air entering the cylinder rather than the intake.



The thing im not getting is.

Its 1 degree outside. 2 cars. 1 has an awesome intake and the air coming through the filter is at 1 degree.
car 2 has a cone filter and the air is at 4 degrees.

Both sets of air are compressed to 1.5bar creating heat as a by product. The temp of the air in car 1 is at 301 degrees.
Whats the temp of the air in car 2 301 or 305?


Im still pro heatshield if only to keep cleaner air hitting the filter.

 

[Mark300zx]

Your right. But again its the IC that controls the air entering the cylinder rather than the intake.

It cools the charge temp it doesn't control it.

A lot of people think that the air entering the turbo will be heated to a certain temp regardless of the whether the air is cool or not, this isn't so, the cooler air entering the turbo leaves the turbo cooler. and in turn is easier to for the ic to cool even further.

It may not be by a lot as this changes due to variables, but for the cost and minimal effort involved it is worth it imo.

 

[traumapat]

It cools the charge temp it doesn't control it.

A lot of people think that the air entering the turbo will be heated to a certain temp regardless of the whether the air is cool or not, this isn't so, the cooler air entering the turbo leaves the turbo cooler. and in turn is easier to for the ic to cool even further.

It may not be by a lot as this changes due to variables, but for the cost and minimal effort involved it is worth it imo.

Edited for clarity. so your saying the temp will be 305 according to my example

 

[Mark300zx]

Edited for clarity. so your saying the temp will be 305 according to my example

Is it an example or you saying this is the case with two cars you observed, if it is real then it is very difficult to apply the specific to the general?

 

[Captain Cupra]

I personally really don't think the gains in terms of filter setup even if it's 10bhp is worth even bothering about, this is why I use a standard box and uprated panel filter I believe it's the best compromise, it's enclosed and not going to be sucking in hot air, also has a cold feed, this subjects been done to death, use the search bar


Sent from my IPhone when I should be doing Work!!

 

[traumapat]

Is it an example or you saying this is the case with two cars you observed, if it is real then it is very difficult to apply the specific to the general?

A general example of of how gas behaves under pressure temp wise. Thanks for the answer