Under Perfoming Cupra - Problem Identified

[Invisible]

Monster Motorsport fitted the Autotech HPFP internals the other day for me and tweaked the REVO map.

While they tinkered with the code it appeared that some of the numbers were not adding up. Subsequently a few logs have been done and sent to REVO.

For background my performance mods are;
Stage 1 Revo
ITG Induction
Autotech HPFP internals + new CAM follower
Rev D DV
(Car also has NGK Iridium cold plugs)
Running VPower

As standard the car made 225bhp on RR (circa 15bhp down) - normal fuel/VPower mix
With Stage 1 273bhp (circa 27bhp down) - normal fuel/Vpower mix
With ITG added and full Vpower 300bhp
Now with Autoech Internals around 310ish ( versus Monsters own cupra with same mods 325ish)

The car did make a nice smooth curve on the RR although I do feel that on the road it can feel like it lack that extra punch I might have expected!

These are the observations / finding from REVO / Monster

- Revo Settings - t 4 b 6 f 4

- Requests for extra timing or Boost caused det

Logs done with and without MAF connected.

Revo have seen the logs and suggests that at Boost 6 it should be hitting 1.4 bar (its only hitting 1.2) and should be able to handle more timing than 4. The engine load is down

Nothing obvious on quick inspection for leaks but hey I am far from an expert!

Monster are happy to do some more investigation work on the boost system for me and have also confirm that REVO now have their very own VAG 'Master Technician' that can also do a check (which I am considering as fancy a gander around their new premises).

I was just wondering if anyone has experienced this themselves or has any ideas on what could be preventing it hitting the required 1.4. Other than a leak somewhere I can't think what it could be?

 

[GrahamFR]

I cant help unfortunately but that is worrying from the start, there are various FR's that are reaching 225bhp as standard, you werent duped when you bought it were you lol

 

[Invisible]

I cant help unfortunately but that is worrying from the start, there are various FR's that are reaching 225bhp as standard, you werent duped when you bought it were you lol

as far as I know it's a K04!

 

[Tombstoneuk]

I know what u mean, I was a little disappointed when mine made only a few bhp more than yours at stage 1. But I try and not think of the dyno lottery as it usually kills anything out on the road.

If you manage to get down to monster tomorrow we can have a bit of a test if u like, if my car gets sorted, as I know mine is almost identical in gear to a m3 csl, and they aren't slow by any means.
Just for info mines standard stage 1 with blueflame do and sports cat with autotech hpfp.

I keep thinking about going to a different dyno just to see what it produces.

 

[RobH]

Wow fuel 4, really? Also timing is pretty low aswell. Ive never herd of anyone with fuel set to 4, My seting are b7 t6 f7.

Take it down to Revo hq for them to have a look at it

 

[springer]

27 bhp from induction kit and v power is good going,wonder how much it would have gone up by just adding full tank of v power

 

[markgb]

Have you tried Tesco's 99 octane fuel? That is what I always fill up with, and mines put out 297bhp on Monster's and Street Racers RR'.
Also, a mate who has got a REVO stage 2 on his Mk1 LCR made an extra 30 odd BHP by using Tesco's 99.

 

[kezFR07]

does seem low mine made 273 hp completley standard and running mainly sainsburys super unleaded! Fair enough maybe a bit of a dyno lottery but not bad going

 

[RobH]

Have you tried Tesco's 99 octane fuel? That is what I always fill up with, and mines put out 297bhp on Monster's and Street Racers RR'.
Also, a mate who has got a REVO stage 2 on his Mk1 LCR made an extra 30 odd BHP by using Tesco's 99.

Tesco 99 was 15hp down on stage 2+ ed30 against Vpower, just so you know

 

[invisiblekid]

Have a chat to Steve at Statller today - I'm getting my Cupra on their RR shortly. He said fill up on V-Power as the difference can be anywhere between 20-30hp.

 

[markgb]

HHHMMM, Monster recommended my mate filled up wtih Tesco 99, as he was using V Power.

 

[RobH]

Have a chat to Steve at Statller today - I'm getting my Cupra on their RR shortly. He said fill up on V-Power as the difference can be anywhere between 20-30hp.

It was his ed30 i was talking about

@Invisible why are you still stage 1 with those mods???

 

[Invisible]

It was his ed30 i was talking about

@Invisible why are you still stage 1 with those mods???

Exhaust is standard. It won't take stage 2 until at min the DP is done.

I guess i'm just doing things a little arse about face as most do map + exhaust to my knowledge. I'm calling mine stage 1+

Also I think a few of the threads have gone a little off track here. It's not the RR that concerns me. I expect dyno lottery and that some will show higher numbers than others. I was just replaying back what two identical cupras did on the same rolloers for consistency.

It's the fact that the engine load is down and the VAGCOM logs show this. I therefore feel boost is leaking somewhere. I don't think this is down to the map.

Any thoughts?

 

[Al]

Have you logged fuel pressure, boost, air flow, timing pull etc? If its not making the boost its supposed to, there must be a reason for it like a hole in the intercooler. You know you can check requested vs actual boost in VAGCOM right?

Fuel being at 4 will make the car very rich for the boost its running. From the modifications you have, I would have expected it to be a little higher than it is, but then dyno lottery may be in play here. If you use JKM's rollers, that may explain the lower figures, because they claim a K04 will only work as far as 330-340bhp with all the bolt ons anyway. Any other set of rollers would say otherwise. Also, you would probably get away with timing being at 6 which will make a difference to your figures, and still be "safe".

Still on the standard intercooler too I assume (not that it will make a huge difference at this time of year)?

 

[Invisible]

Have you logged fuel pressure, boost, air flow, timing pull etc? If its not making the boost its supposed to, there must be a reason for it like a hole in the intercooler. You know you can check requested vs actual boost in VAGCOM right?

Fuel being at 4 will make the car very rich for the boost its running. From the modifications you have, I would have expected it to be a little higher than it is, but then dyno lottery may be in play here. If you use JKM's rollers, that may explain the lower figures, because they claim a K04 will only work as far as 330-340bhp with all the bolt ons anyway. Any other set of rollers would say otherwise. Also, you would probably get away with timing being at 6 which will make a difference to your figures, and still be "safe".

Still on the standard intercooler too I assume (not that it will make a huge difference at this time of year)?

Standard IC yes.

2 logs done, one with MAF disconnected both show requested v actual if I'm reading them right!

	Cyl 1 Ign	Cyl 2 Ign	Cyl 3 Ign	Cyl 4 Ign		Eng Spd	Eng Load	Bst Pres	Bst Pres		Rail Pres	Rail Pres	Rail Pres
TIME	Ang Dly	Ang Dly	Ang Dly	Ang Dly	TIME			(specif)	(actual)	TIME	(specif)	(actual)	Diff
STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar	STAMP	 bar	 bar	 bar
0.12	0	0	0	0	0.25	2440	15.8	280	1030	0.01	69.31	69.13	0.18
0.51	0	0	0	0	0.64	2480	74.4	2240	1000	0.37	67.57	67.32	0.25
0.89	0	0	0	0	1.04	2560	93.2	2150	1210	0.76	83.18	85.87	-2.69
1.28	0	0	0	0	1.4	2640	115	2170	1480	1.15	98.65	99.29	-0.64
1.66	0	0	0	0	1.79	2800	144.4	2190	1800	1.54	111.56	114.18	-2.63
2.06	0	-3	0	0	2.18	2960	175.9	2180	2180	1.92	119.69	121.76	-2.07
2.44	0	-3	0	0	2.59	3160	191.7	2190	2360	2.32	124.13	124.51	-0.38
2.84	0	-3	0	0	2.96	3320	186.5	2190	2250	2.71	124.89	124.1	0.78
3.23	0	-3	0	0	3.35	3520	182	2190	2180	3.1	124.98	125	-0.03
3.62	0	-3	0	0	3.74	3680	180.5	2190	2190	3.47	125.06	124.21	0.85
3.99	0	-3	0	0	4.13	3840	178.2	2180	2190	3.87	125.43	124.43	1
4.38	0	-2.3	0	0	4.51	4000	177.4	2200	2160	4.26	125.84	124.84	1
4.77	0	-2.3	0	0	4.9	4200	175.9	2210	2160	4.65	126.28	123.37	2.9
5.16	0	-2.3	0	0	5.29	4360	179.7	2230	2180	5.02	126.66	126.43	0.23
5.54	0	-2.3	0	0	5.68	4520	181.2	2240	2200	5.41	127.08	126.5	0.58
5.93	0	-2.3	0	0	6.05	4640	181.2	2230	2210	5.8	127.42	125.85	1.57
6.31	0	-2.3	0	0	6.44	4840	177.4	2230	2220	6.19	127.48	126.62	0.86
6.71	0	-2.3	0	0	6.83	5000	175.2	2230	2220	6.56	127.49	127.95	-0.46
7.08	0	-2.3	0	0	7.22	5120	175.2	2230	2210	6.95	127.49	128.4	-0.91
7.47	0	-1.5	0	0	7.6	5280	175.2	2230	2220	7.34	127.49	129.34	-1.85
7.86	0	-1.5	0	0	7.98	5440	174.4	2230	2200	7.73	127.49	128.42	-0.93
8.25	0	-1.5	0	0	8.37	5560	176.7	2230	2210	8.11	127.49	130.07	-2.58
8.63	0	-1.5	0	0	8.77	5720	175.2	2230	2210	8.5	127.49	128.76	-1.27
9.01	0	-1.5	0	0	9.14	5840	176.7	2230	2210	8.89	127.49	127.27	0.22
9.4	0	-1.5	0	0	9.53	5960	176.7	2170	2210	9.28	127.49	125.32	2.17
9.8	0	-1.5	0	0	9.92	6080	170.7	2150	2150	9.65	127.49	129.02	-1.53
10.17	0	-1.5	0	0	10.31	6080	25.6	400	1700	10.05	127.49	128.09	-0.6
10.56	0	0	0	0	10.69	6000	17.3	290	1240	10.43	106.97	119.94	-12.98
10.95	0	0	0	0	11.08	5840	17.3	290	1160	10.83	102.94	125.92	-22.99
11.34	0	0	0	0	11.46	5640	17.3	290	1130	11.2	99.35	126.9	-27.55
11.72	0	0	0	0	11.86	5400	17.3	290	1110	11.59	118.89	118.89	0
12.1	0	0	0	0	12.23	5160	17.3	290	1090	11.98	119.3	119.3	0
12.49	0	0	0	0	12.62	4960	16.5	290	1100	12.37	119.76	119.76	0
12.89	0	0	0	0	13.01	4720	16.5	290	1090	12.75	120.14	120.14	0
13.26	0	0	0	0	13.4	4440	16.5	290	1080	13.13	120.31	120.31	0
13.65	0	0	0	0	13.77	4280	16.5	290	1080	13.52	120.52	120.52	0
14.04	0	0	0	0	14.16	4120	17.3	290	1080	13.91	120.57	120.57	0
14.43	0	0	0	0	14.55	3960	17.3	290	1080	14.29	120.65	120.65	0
14.8	0	0	0	0	14.94	3840	16.5	290	1080	14.68	120.65	120.65	0
15.19	0	0	0	0	15.31	3800	16.5	290	1080	15.07	120.62	120.62	0
15.58	0	0	0	0	15.71	3680	16.5	290	1080	15.46	120.65	120.65	0
15.97	0	0	0	0	16.1	3560	16.5	290	1070	15.83	120.65	120.65	0
16.35	0	0	0	0	16.49	3440	16.5	300	1070	16.22	120.7	120.7	0
16.74	0	0	0	0	16.86	3360	15.8	300	1070	16.61	120.64	120.64	0
17.16	0	0	0	0	17.28	3240	16.5	300	1070	17.03	120.6	120.6	0
17.55	0	0	0	0	17.67	3200	15.8	300	1070	17.41	120.49	120.49	0
17.92	0	0	0	0	18.06	3120	15.8	300	1060	17.8	120.4	120.4	0
18.31	0	0	0	0	18.44	3080	15.8	300	1060	18.19	120.33	120.33	0
18.7	0	0	0	0	18.83	3000	15.8	300	1060	18.58	120.29	120.29	0
19.09	0	0	0	0	19.22	2960	15.8	300	1060	18.95	120.28	120.28	0
19.46	0	0	0	0	19.61	2960	15.8	290	1060	19.34	120.25	120.25	0
19.86	0	0	0	0	19.98	2920	15.8	290	1050	19.73	120.2	120.2	0
20.24	0	0	0	0	20.37	2880	16.5	290	1050	20.12	120.11	120.11	0
20.64	0	0	0	0	20.76	2840	15.8	290	1050	20.5	120.04	120.04	0
21.01	0	0	0	0	21.15	2800	16.5	280	1050	20.88	115.67	110.68	4.98
21.4	0	0	0	0	21.53	2800	15.8	280	1040	21.27	113.37	113.13	0.24
21.79	0	0	0	0	21.92	2760	16.5	280	1040	21.67	111.06	109.48	1.58
22.18	0	0	0	0	22.31	2760	15.8	280	1040	22.04	108.99	108.33	0.66
22.55	0	0	0	0	22.7	2720	15.8	280	1030	22.43	106.77	107.23	-0.46
95.92	0	0	0	0	96.05	1760	36.8	620	1060	96.17	78.02	77.8	0.21
96.31	0	0	0	0	96.44	1800	49.6	1660	1030	96.56	86.44	88.42	-1.98
96.69	0	0	0	0	96.83	1880	85	1600	1120	96.95	99.22	99.71	-0.49
97.07	0	0	0	0	97.2	1960	91.7	1680	1220	97.34	110.9	112.33	-1.43
97.47	0	0	0	0	97.59	2040	103.8	1780	1330	97.72	121.28	122.35	-1.08
97.86	0	0	0	0	97.98	2160	112.8	1970	1450	98.1	124.49	122.98	1.51
98.23	0	0	0	0	98.37	2280	125.6	2090	1600	98.5	124.93	124.56	0.37
98.62	0	0	0	0	98.74	2440	141.4	2150	1780	98.89	124.98	125.69	-0.71
99.01	0	0	0	0	99.13	2600	160.9	2180	2030	99.26	124.99	123.7	1.29
99.4	0	0	0	0	99.53	2760	177.4	2190	2240	99.65	124.99	123.71	1.28
99.78	0	0	0	0	99.92	2960	188.7	2180	2370	100.04	124.99	126.8	-1.81
100.17	0	0	0	0	100.29	3120	191.7	2190	2350	100.43	124.99	123.82	1.17
100.55	0	0	0	0	100.68	3280	183.5	2190	2240	100.8	124.99	124.74	0.25
100.95	0	0	0	0	101.07	3480	178.2	2200	2180	101.19	125.01	124.81	0.2
101.32	0	0	0	0	101.46	3640	179.7	2190	2210	101.58	125.32	124.89	0.43
101.71	0	0	0	0	101.83	3800	179.7	2190	2200	101.98	125.71	126.67	-0.96
102.1	0	0	0	0	102.22	3960	177.4	2190	2180	102.35	126.1	125.22	0.88
102.5	0	0	0	0	102.62	4120	175.9	2210	2170	102.74	126.49	125	1.49
102.86	0	0	0	0	103	4280	172.9	2220	2180	103.13	126.87	127.42	-0.55
103.25	0	0	0	0	103.38	4440	180.5	2240	2210	103.52	127.27	125.9	1.37
103.65	0	0	0	0	103.77	4560	180.5	2240	2210	103.9	127.46	126.7	0.75
104.04	0	0	0	0	104.16	4720	178.9	2230	2210	104.28	127.49	128.43	-0.94
104.41	0	0	0	0	104.55	4880	178.9	2240	2240	104.67	127.49	123.73	3.76
104.8	0	0	0	0	104.92	5000	174.4	2240	2220	105.07	127.49	127.48	0.01
105.19	0	0	0	0	105.31	5160	174.4	2240	2220	105.44	127.49	126.78	0.71
105.58	0	0	0	0	105.7	5280	176.7	2240	2220	105.83	127.49	127.77	-0.28
105.95	0	-3	0	0	106.1	5400	174.4	2240	2210	106.22	127.49	129.08	-1.59
106.35	0	-3	0	0	106.47	5520	176.7	2240	2210	106.61	127.49	127.61	-0.12
106.74	0	-3	0	0	106.86	5640	175.9	2240	2230	106.98	127.49	129.88	-2.39
107.13	0	-3	0	0	107.25	5800	176.7	2240	2230	107.37	127.49	125.67	1.82
107.5	0	-3	0	0	107.64	5880	176.7	2210	2230	107.76	127.49	126.94	0.55
107.89	0	-3	0	0	108.01	6000	175.9	2170	2210	108.15	127.49	127.18	0.31
108.28	0	-3	0	0	108.41	6120	169.2	2160	2130	108.53	127.49	128.98	-1.49
108.67	0	-3	0	0	108.79	6240	168.4	2160	2140	108.91	127.49	126	1.49
109.04	0	-3	0	0	109.19	6360	168.4	2170	2140	109.31	127.49	125.19	2.3
109.43	0	-2.3	0	0	109.56	6440	165.4	2180	2170	109.7	127.49	127.66	-0.17
109.82	0	-2.3	0	0	109.95	6520	166.2	2180	2170	110.07	127.49	129.48	-1.99
110.22	0	-2.3	0	0	110.34	6600	181.2	1240	2240	110.47	115.33	129.11	-13.79
110.59	-2.3	0	0	0	110.73	6560	22.6	330	1480	110.85	104.41	121.52	-17.11
110.98	0	0	0	0	111.1	6480	17.3	290	1220	111.24	100.65	122.57	-21.92
111.36	0	0	0	0	111.49	6400	17.3	290	1170	111.61	96.93	124.4	-27.48
111.76	0	0	0	0	111.88	6320	17.3	290	1150	112	120.22	120.22	0
112.13	0	0	0	0	112.27	6160	17.3	290	1130	112.4	124.03	124.03	0
112.52	0	0	0	0	112.65	6040	17.3	290	1120	112.79	123.34	123.34	0
112.91	0	0	0	0	113.03	5920	17.3	300	1140	113.16	123.58	123.58	0
113.3	0	0	0	0	113.43	5800	17.3	300	1140	113.55	123.69	123.69	0
113.68	0	0	0	0	113.82	5680	17.3	300	1140	113.94	123.7	123.7	0
114.06	0	0	0	0	114.19	5600	17.3	300	1140	114.33	123.75	123.75	0
114.46	0	0	0	0	114.58	5520	18	300	1140	114.7	123.8	123.8	0
114.85	0	0	0	0	114.97	5440	17.3	300	1130	115.1	123.8	123.8	0
115.22	0	0	0	0	115.36	5360	17.3	290	1130	115.49	123.85	123.85	0
115.61	0	0	0	0	115.73	5280	17.3	290	1120	115.88	123.76	123.76	0
116	0	0	0	0	116.13	5200	17.3	290	1120	116.25	123.86	123.86	0
116.39	0	0	0	0	116.52	5120	17.3	290	1110	116.64	123.86	123.86	0
116.76	0	0	0	0	116.9	5040	16.5	290	1100	117.03	123.76	123.76	0
117.16	0	0	0	0	117.28	5000	16.5	290	1100	117.42	123.81	123.81	0
117.54	0	0	0	0	117.67	4920	16.5	280	1090	117.79	123.71	123.71	0
117.94	0	0	0	0	118.06	4880	16.5	280	1090	118.18	123.71	123.71	0
118.31	0	0	0	0	118.45	4800	16.5	280	1080	118.57	123.72	123.72	0
118.7	0	0	0	0	118.82	4760	16.5	290	1080	118.96	123.71	123.71	0
119.09	0	0	0	0	119.21	4720	16.5	290	1080	119.34	123.72	123.72	0
119.48	0	0	0	0	119.6	4640	16.5	290	1080	119.73	123.71	123.71	0
119.85	0	0	0	0	119.99	4600	16.5	290	1070	120.12	123.7	123.7	0
120.24	0	0	0	0	120.37	4560	16.5	290	1070	120.51	123.71	123.71	0
120.63	0	0	0	0	120.76	4480	16.5	290	1070	120.88	123.69	123.69	0
121.03	0	0	0	0	121.15	4440	16.5	290	1070	121.27	123.69	123.69	0
121.4	0	0	0	0	121.54	4400	16.5	290	1070	121.66	123.64	123.64	0
121.79	0	0	0	0	121.91	4360	16.5	290	1070	122.06	123.64	123.64	0
122.18	0	0	0	0	122.31	4320	16.5	290	1070	122.43	123.57	123.57	0
122.57	0	0	0	0	122.69	4240	16.5	290	1080	122.82	117.34	115.46	1.88
122.94	0	0	0	0	123.08	4240	17.3	290	1090	123.21	113.83	113.46	0.37

Monster did airflow too which seemed low, hence the reason to run with/without MAF

Above is with MAF connected.

I'm not 100% but shouldn't engine load be up around 200%?

 

[Invisible]

Benn out again today, defo not pulling as it should.

Think its time to open the wallet again and get someone to do some proper investigating

 

[Al]

If Revo say this should be pulling 1.4 Bar of boost, note that the requested boost is only 1.2 Bar which is being met.

What happens when you run the car with the MAF connected?

 

[robdf2]

Dave the problems you and Alex are getting are the same problems i have with my Cupra only difference is mine has done it for 2 years now and SEAT grease monkeys say its all ok.

i have timimg pull of -4 and -5 on standard , your timing looks ok tbh , i will post my timing pull log up later also together with boost and fuel logs.

If i was to have a guess with my car i would say i have a hole in my intercooler and fueling issues , i might have to get a boroscope and look at my carbon build up while im at it.

 

[Al]

I might log my new car for shits and giggles later on to compare (not that a standard car compares to one with bolt ons and a remap). Will show boost, air flow, fuelling, timing etc though.

 

[Invisible]

Dave the problems you and Alex are getting are the same problems i have with my Cupra only difference is mine has done it for 2 years now and SEAT grease monkeys say its all ok.

i have timimg pull of -4 and -5 on standard , your timing looks ok tbh , i will post my timing pull log up later also together with boost and fuel logs.

If i was to have a guess with my car i would say i have a hole in my intercooler and fueling issues , i might have to get a boroscope and look at my carbon build up while im at it.

Thanks Rob, those furry intake valves you spoke to me about are a worry. A damaged intercooler has been mentioned as well.

I have decide to go see the VAG master tech at REVO so he can have a good once over and hopefully put his finger on the problem