OEM or Big Turbo?

[Willie]

Well as with most people the draw of BT has always been big.
The bragging rights to having a 300, 400 or even 500 BHP car.

Until now I've had a OEM mapped LCR for 7 years, mostly concentrating on handling mods.

Now I've got the full stage 2 mods and have been mapped my thoughts on BT have changed.
I always known getting the power down in a BT FWD car would be difficult.
This has been proven in 1/4 mile days.
Also due to traction these cars only become really fast when they get traction, which is usually in 3rd gear at about 100 MPH, when can you really get the benefits of this??

The power delivery of my car just now is pretty savage and is boosting well up to red line, the torque feels great and traction, with LSD and R888's, is not too much of an issue.

Now I feel there is no point in even going hybrid turbo, okay my car is more track focussed and on the track there will always be fast and bigger powered cars making more use of the BT's.

But when would you really feel the benefits of a BT car in the real world?
When are you in a situation where your needing massive acceleration about 100 MPH?

We have some very very fast OEM turbo'd cars up here, not many people believe the out puts but the figures speak for themselves.

370 BHP KO4 MK2 LC doing 12.9 secs with 116 MPH terminals

260 BHP KO3s MK3 IC doing 13.6 secs with 108 MPH terminals

210 BHP KO4 MK1 LCR doing 14.4 secs with 99 MPH terminals

There is more to come from these three cars and others very soon, just a shame Santa Pod is so far away as the figures for Crail seem to not being believed.

Cars have been proven to do the 1/4 mile at Santa Pod 0.2 seconds quicker than at Crail so taking that off the times above make this even more interesting

So is BT really worth it???

 

[westallc]

i take it the second one is a ko3s hybrid???

 

[Willie]

i take it the second one is a ko3s hybrid???

No, KO3s mapped by Star Performance.
With 250 ft-lbs too.
It's very very fast.

 

[jamiebennett81]

Also due to traction these cars only become really fast when they get traction, which is usually in 3rd gear at about 100 MPH, when can you really get the benefits of this??

The power delivery of my car just now is pretty savage and is boosting well up to red line, the torque feels great and traction, with LSD and R888's, is not too much of an issue.

Now I feel there is no point in even going hybrid turbo, okay my car is more track focussed and on the track there will always be fast and bigger powered cars making more use of the BT's.


just answered your own question there mate (on the second point most importantly)

never been a fan of the BT's. All very well for bragging and going fast (on a road which we shouldnt be anyway), but on a track, unless you have 4WD and it is a tight twisty circuit for example, you will never benefit from it, and a well remapped LCR will keep up with a BT car, especially your car as its heavily stripped and the handling sorted

stick with the OEM with a twist theme

 

[Willie]

Yup, even in OEM form I was mixing it with the Elises and Exiges.
Now mapped it'll be more interesting

 

[jamiebennett81]

Yup, even in OEM form I was mixing it with the Elises and Exiges.
Now mapped it'll be more interesting

there you go then mate, question answered

 

[wild willy]

Going BT is a double edged sword imho as you gain top end but loose low down. I would like to see a selection of cars all run on the same dyno and thier graphs imported into a program like auto cad to allow the area under the graph to be accurately scrutinised.
A remapped LCR is a beast in its own right, stage one was good, stage 2 was awesome and like getting mapped all over again. K04 hybrid CORRECTLY SET UP is in a different league compared to stage 2 and costs so little in comparison to BT plus you loose very little low down.
A hybrid in a lightweight LCR will blow your socks off. I fully intend getting the car dynoed over 350 bhp in the next 12months without flogging the tits off it. The problem is that so many people have bad experiences with hybrids simply because most tuners don't have the ability to set them upcorrectly.

 

[Madmile]

Going BT is a double edged sword imho as you gain top end but loose low down. I would like to see a selection of cars all run on the same dyno and thier graphs imported into a program like auto cad to allow the area under the graph to be accurately scrutinised.
A remapped LCR is a beast in its own right, stage one was good, stage 2 was awesome and like getting mapped all over again. K04 hybrid CORRECTLY SET UP is in a different league compared to stage 2 and costs so little in comparison to BT plus you loose very little low down.
A hybrid in a lightweight LCR will blow your socks off. I fully intend getting the car dynoed over 350 bhp in the next 12months without flogging the tits off it. The problem is that so many people have bad experiences with hybrids simply because most tuners don't have the ability to set them upcorrectly.

IHI vf34 spool is nice but lacks top end savage grunt, dont get me wrong 320-340bhp is enough to drag it upto a genuine 165mph quickly in a Mk3 cupra.

470bhp would be nice as a figure but not real world useable, vf34 like spool with 375-400bhp would be ideal, I seriously think a genuine Td05 18g or Scoobyclinic SC36 doing a real 370bhp would be the ticket for a Mk3 Ibiza. When my vf34 goes its what I will be doing.

 

[_chris_]

Going BT is a double edged sword imho as you gain top end but loose low down. I would like to see a selection of cars all run on the same dyno and thier graphs imported into a program like auto cad to allow the area under the graph to be accurately scrutinised.
A remapped LCR is a beast in its own right, stage one was good, stage 2 was awesome and like getting mapped all over again. K04 hybrid CORRECTLY SET UP is in a different league compared to stage 2 and costs so little in comparison to BT plus you loose very little low down.
A hybrid in a lightweight LCR will blow your socks off. I fully intend getting the car dynoed over 350 bhp in the next 12months without flogging the tits off it. The problem is that so many people have bad experiences with hybrids simply because most tuners don't have the ability to set them upcorrectly.

i think that in the next year i am probs going to go hybrid, been looking at bt and for the cost i just cant see me spending the extra,

i agree with a well set up hybrid, that it should perform well.

 

[Al]

Going BT is a double edged sword imho as you gain top end but loose low down.

Nail on head - and at speeds that you dont drive at 90% of the time.

Hybrid would be the best option - OEM spool and extra power.

 

[ibizacupra]

Also due to traction these cars only become really fast when they get traction, which is usually in 3rd gear at about 100 MPH, when can you really get the benefits of this??

The power delivery of my car just now is pretty savage and is boosting well up to red line, the torque feels great and traction, with LSD and R888's, is not too much of an issue.

Now I feel there is no point in even going hybrid turbo, okay my car is more track focussed and on the track there will always be fast and bigger powered cars making more use of the BT's.


just answered your own question there mate (on the second point most importantly)

never been a fan of the BT's. All very well for bragging and going fast (on a road which we shouldnt be anyway), but on a track, unless you have 4WD and it is a tight twisty circuit for example, you will never benefit from it, and a well remapped LCR will keep up with a BT car, especially your car as its heavily stripped and the handling sorted

stick with the OEM with a twist theme

Absolute bollocks

 

[ibizacupra]

IHI vf34 spool is nice but lacks top end savage grunt, dont get me wrong 320-340bhp is enough to drag it upto a genuine 165mph quickly in a Mk3 cupra.

470bhp would be nice as a figure but not real world useable, vf34 like spool with 375-400bhp would be ideal, I seriously think a genuine Td05 18g or Scoobyclinic SC36 doing a real 370bhp would be the ticket for a Mk3 Ibiza. When my vf34 goes its what I will be doing.

I disagree

BT can be very drivable.. when its boost is progressively brought in..

high 300's low 400's WILL overcome 2wd traction even on treaded track rubber, but not on slicks...

Depends if people are talking track (willy) use or road use, or the unavoidable compromise of trying to be both things in one car

Want to go fast round a track, handling and brakes first, then build on the power and use better rubber designed to be used on track.. slicks etc

the most time to be gained will be from grip, not power, but combine both and woohoo

 

[ibizacupra]

Nail on head - and at speeds that you dont drive at 90% of the time.

Hybrid would be the best option - OEM spool and extra power.

Not on track..

low down power on track? you aint driving a diesel - lol

you dont use low down revs on track..

 

[Al]

Yeah I agree with that. My comment was for road use. You would definitely get some benefit of a bigger turbo on the track although it may depend on the track.

There was a 500bhp Subaru running slower times than standard turbo ones on a track up this way last year as it took forever for the turbo to spool and when it did, the standard Subaru was way ahead by that point.

 

[jamiebennett81]

Absolute bollocks

I think he is referring to 300 - 400bhp cars bill

Not 600+

 

[Willie]

Absolute bollocks

Savage in my mind, granted I'm still trying to get used to it.

Bill, you wouldn't drive your car day to day?
i know your not 21 any more but what's the point in having all that power with no means for using it.
ow many BT FWD cars are built to go on the track?
Even my so called track/road car will only see about 5 % usage on the track.

BT for 4WD track cars, usable power for FWD road cars

 

[Al]

BT for 4WD track cars, usable power for FWD road cars

 

[Madmile]

I disagree

BT can be very drivable.. when its boost is progressively brought in..

high 300's low 400's WILL overcome 2wd traction even on treaded track rubber, but not on slicks...

Depends if people are talking track (willy) use or road use, or the unavoidable compromise of trying to be both things in one car

Want to go fast round a track, handling and brakes first, then build on the power and use better rubber designed to be used on track.. slicks etc

the most time to be gained will be from grip, not power, but combine both and woohoo

I worded it incorrectly Bill when I said " Real world Useable" I meant Public road real world useable for the average SCN user who maybe wants to hit the track 1-2 a year.

1.8T and huge turbo has to involve a lag trade off plain physics of CC vs Turbo size. And who wants that kind of top end power in your daily driver doing the shopping and dropping kids off at schools.

A little more lag over the Vf34 would not be a problem say 200-300rpm but no more. Theres a real gap for a genuine 365-375bhp turbo which can hit 1 bar below 3800rpm thats not been run ragged to achieve the power.

Wilko could possibly shed some light on it, but its seems like a genuine 18g is a nice turbo for the stnd 1.8T. Also scoobyclinic have some new Billet turbos which may provide some decent power.

There Sc36 on a sti on v-power with supporting mods hit 373bhp in shootout mode on a DD, and its about £850 inc vat.

 

[Al]

For what its worth, at one of the recent meets someone turned up with a MK4 Ibiza with a VF34 and all the trimmings, and it was mapped up with r/r graphs of more than 350bhp.

On the road, it wasnt very nice, and to be fair, on boost, it wasnt anywhere near as quick as I expected it to be either in any gear other than 4th 5th and 6th due to wheelspin.

If I was going big turbo, I would be making sure the car had rear or four wheel drive before I started tinkering regardless of it being a road car or a track car.

Even on my car with all the chassis mods etc loads of power is wasted at lower speeds, and it only has 370bhp/340ft-lbs. Luckily though, it makes torque reasonably low down in the rev range though and maintains a decent torque figure all the way to the point where the car makes maximum power.

Then there is the consideration of anything other than a dry road etc.

[/£0.02]

 

[pj1985]

Firstly if you are going to compare the best of the OEM+ cars out there surely its only fair to compare them to the best of the BT cars out there? This means well mapped, set up.

On track a well set up BT car will eat a well set up OEM+ car every time (driver dependent). If it has a massive turbo with quite abit of lag like Bills car it will still have enough power to be well ahead and if its at the beginning of the BT range such as an IHI/GT28 it wont have the lag but will still have sufficiently enough power to be ahead.

On the road its different as you cant do silly speeds as you can on track and the surface isnt as good to get the power down. If you have a car with a set up like Bills then its still going to be silly quick but lag and grip will not make it a good road car and by that i mean also pleasurable to drive. With an IHI/GT28 theres some lag but with a good set up it will still get lots of grip and be nice to drive.

At the end of the day it all comes down to the set up and how you personally like your car to drive. I loved my IHI. Power when you wanted it that could blast past most things but nice and sedate to drive for pottering around town.