Seems to be a stumbling block with the new Ibiza Cupra Bocanegra when it comes to tuning. I've read some info about DSG transmissions on other sites and a select few people seem to know a great deal about them and have been involved in the testing, because the other forums have been aimed at different cars I've still not been able to find a clear cut answer as to whats safe n whats not, so I'm hoping this thread might clear things up a little. I'd be happy with 330Nm safe or not??
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dsg box for boca and cupra
Lets get it straight once and for all, the gearbox is the same as the one used in the r33 all the parts inside are the same, so stop seeing that as a problem, i have readed so many threads in here, about the gearbox and can it hold for 300nm the answer is yes and it can hold 400 and 500 aswell. so now im just waiting untill week 11 where the first boca comes to Denmark for MEeeeeeeeeeee
Lets get it straight once and for all, the gearbox is the same as the one used in the r33 all the parts inside are the same, so stop seeing that as a problem, i have readed so many threads in here, about the gearbox and can it hold for 300nm the answer is yes and it can hold 400 and 500 aswell. so now im just waiting untill week 11 where the first boca comes to Denmark for MEeeeeeeeeeee
R32 is a 6 speedwet clutch DSG. Boc/Cup is a 7 speed dry clutch. Not the same.
If you mean the new mk6 Golf R or R20 this is also a new DSG box it is 7 speed but it is not the same dry clutch 7 speed as found in our cars.
If you mean the new mk6 Golf R or R20 this is also a new DSG box it is 7 speed but it is not the same dry clutch 7 speed as found in our cars.
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I think the only way we will know for sure ab out this box is once it has been extensively tested by a tuner with the cash to replace the box once it has reached the limit. I wonder who the brave soldier will be?
This was taken from another site, cant figure out which model number the 7 Speed dry DSG is.
Max Torque
6 Speed Wet DSG 350 Nm Transverse Engines
7 Speed Dry DSG 250 Nm Transverse Engines
'New' 7 Speed DSG 550 Nm Longitudinal Engines & Quattro Compatible
APR said the torque is limited by sensors in the DSG, should it reach maximum, the ECU reduces torque output from the engine.
This is from another forum
"A little information about DSG and its ability to handle more power/torque etc and to put to bed the general assumption that it can't.
The O2E DSG box has exactly the same torque rating as the O2M box found in manual R32's, and that is 350Nm or
approx 258Lb/ft of torque. Internally at VW the gearboxes are known as O2E 350 and O2M 350 because of these ratings. (on Audi 3.2 TT’s they are know as MQ-350 and DQ-350 gearbox’s) same gearbox’s same torque ratings.
VW also produce an O2E 280 which has a 280Nm torque rating for lesser powered VW models.
The weight of the DSG Box is approx 95kg by the way of which the special gear oil weighs 5.3kgs!!, I know this because I have completed a competitive analysis and tested the gearbox then taken one apart to inspect it's internals. We had no problems with it while it was tested at the proving ground.
Anyway, that’s not to say that the O2E or O2M box's can't handle more torque as anybody knows, with the current
crop of conversions from HGP-Turbo, EIP, HPA, Rothe etc.
HGP also produce a Single Turbo conversion for the DSG with 400ps and 515nm of torque, so it kind of puts to bed he rumor
that the box is the "weak" point of the car.
The limiting factor of the box is not the gears or clutch packs but the programming of TCM (transmission control
module). The DSG TCM is programmed such that, if the input shaft sees more than a certain amount of torque (350 Nm)
it tells the ECU to dial down on the engine power. I assume this has been done by VW engineers to prolong the life
of the box and preserve clutch packs and brake bands, as I have heard that the clutch packs are designed to last the life of the car without out ever
needing to be changed... this statement comes from an article written in ATZ/MZT Engineering magazine (from Germany) in March 2004
by Dr. Frank Günter, Director of VW Program Management for BorgWarner Transmission Systems, who helped develop the
gearbox.
Ok, back on track, a certain tuning company built at VW’s request a few single turbo R32 DSG’s for VW to stress
test their DSG’s at Ehra-Lessien proving grounds and VW have logged at full throttle 5500rpm launches with no
reported issues. I believe this to be single turbo engines pushing out approx 400ps similar to HGP’s 400PS
conversion.
The TCM’s were modified to increase the standard launch control rpm’s from 3500 to 5500 to further enhance
acceleration times, and test the transmissions durability.
They also were able to reprogramme the oil pressure regulators of the clutch packs (hydraulic controls & pumps)to simulate higher clamping
forces and hence enable the clutch packs to compress further to enable them to handle more torque without slipping.
It should also be noted that the clutch packs are sprayed with oil to lubricate and to help dissipate heat
during certain driving conditions.
The probable reason why AMD and other tuning companies in the UK have limited torque increases on R32 and 3.2 TT's conversions is that have not yet been brave enough to dig into the gearbox internals and modify the TCM's to increase the oil pressure in the box and therefore increase it's torque rating.
So it's not that it can't be done, you just have to know what you're doing.
HPG Tuning in Germany can carry out this modification, and do for there 400Ps conversion, Wendland MotorenTecknik produce engines conversions for DSG equipped vehilces up to 310ps/360Nm torque.
I hope the above goes some way to halt the general assumption that O2E’s can’t handle more torque."
And this site (http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/threads/399192.phtml)has further information
I've also seen some information that it's good for close to 650nm (the six speed)
Max Torque
6 Speed Wet DSG 350 Nm Transverse Engines
7 Speed Dry DSG 250 Nm Transverse Engines
'New' 7 Speed DSG 550 Nm Longitudinal Engines & Quattro Compatible
APR said the torque is limited by sensors in the DSG, should it reach maximum, the ECU reduces torque output from the engine.
This is from another forum
"A little information about DSG and its ability to handle more power/torque etc and to put to bed the general assumption that it can't.
The O2E DSG box has exactly the same torque rating as the O2M box found in manual R32's, and that is 350Nm or
approx 258Lb/ft of torque. Internally at VW the gearboxes are known as O2E 350 and O2M 350 because of these ratings. (on Audi 3.2 TT’s they are know as MQ-350 and DQ-350 gearbox’s) same gearbox’s same torque ratings.
VW also produce an O2E 280 which has a 280Nm torque rating for lesser powered VW models.
The weight of the DSG Box is approx 95kg by the way of which the special gear oil weighs 5.3kgs!!, I know this because I have completed a competitive analysis and tested the gearbox then taken one apart to inspect it's internals. We had no problems with it while it was tested at the proving ground.
Anyway, that’s not to say that the O2E or O2M box's can't handle more torque as anybody knows, with the current
crop of conversions from HGP-Turbo, EIP, HPA, Rothe etc.
HGP also produce a Single Turbo conversion for the DSG with 400ps and 515nm of torque, so it kind of puts to bed he rumor
that the box is the "weak" point of the car.
The limiting factor of the box is not the gears or clutch packs but the programming of TCM (transmission control
module). The DSG TCM is programmed such that, if the input shaft sees more than a certain amount of torque (350 Nm)
it tells the ECU to dial down on the engine power. I assume this has been done by VW engineers to prolong the life
of the box and preserve clutch packs and brake bands, as I have heard that the clutch packs are designed to last the life of the car without out ever
needing to be changed... this statement comes from an article written in ATZ/MZT Engineering magazine (from Germany) in March 2004
by Dr. Frank Günter, Director of VW Program Management for BorgWarner Transmission Systems, who helped develop the
gearbox.
Ok, back on track, a certain tuning company built at VW’s request a few single turbo R32 DSG’s for VW to stress
test their DSG’s at Ehra-Lessien proving grounds and VW have logged at full throttle 5500rpm launches with no
reported issues. I believe this to be single turbo engines pushing out approx 400ps similar to HGP’s 400PS
conversion.
The TCM’s were modified to increase the standard launch control rpm’s from 3500 to 5500 to further enhance
acceleration times, and test the transmissions durability.
They also were able to reprogramme the oil pressure regulators of the clutch packs (hydraulic controls & pumps)to simulate higher clamping
forces and hence enable the clutch packs to compress further to enable them to handle more torque without slipping.
It should also be noted that the clutch packs are sprayed with oil to lubricate and to help dissipate heat
during certain driving conditions.
The probable reason why AMD and other tuning companies in the UK have limited torque increases on R32 and 3.2 TT's conversions is that have not yet been brave enough to dig into the gearbox internals and modify the TCM's to increase the oil pressure in the box and therefore increase it's torque rating.
So it's not that it can't be done, you just have to know what you're doing.
HPG Tuning in Germany can carry out this modification, and do for there 400Ps conversion, Wendland MotorenTecknik produce engines conversions for DSG equipped vehilces up to 310ps/360Nm torque.
I hope the above goes some way to halt the general assumption that O2E’s can’t handle more torque."
And this site (http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/threads/399192.phtml)has further information
I've also seen some information that it's good for close to 650nm (the six speed)
Lets get it straight once and for all, the gearbox is the same as the one used in the r33 all the parts inside are the same, so stop seeing that as a problem, i have readed so many threads in here, about the gearbox and can it hold for 300nm the answer is yes and it can hold 400 and 500 aswell. so now im just waiting untill week 11 where the first boca comes to Denmark for MEeeeeeeeeeee
Its posts like this that get people into trouble with their cars!
Cheers for that techie, give's me some info to scour the net with to maybe find out more.
4k
poor customer if it wasn't in warranty!!!
The Golf in question had done 1300 miles and was on box number three, still to this day the only 7 speed i've had problems with. Plus it had only just come out (was 18 months ago or so). I would think the boxes are a bit cheaper now, and maybe an exhange available.
I would also venture as far as saying that i am pretty sure the technology has come a far way since then and more testing than is needed was done. How many DSG have been that problematic in all honesty? Would it be possible to do a conversion to 6 speecd manual? The new polo GTi will be available in either DSG or manual. Would require some modification but i believe it can be done. Then you could tune the nuts off the car don't you think?
Why couldn't they just have given us an option for manual too on the boca???!!!!! I don't mind the DSG at all but they have sort of limited us now as to what we can do with the car. Unless perhaps SEAT Motorsport develop something........ Having withdrawn from the sport though makes me doubt it. Don't you just hate this feeloing of not being sure about exactly what can be or cannot be done to this box?! Sure if you have money it would be agreat adventure of discovery but come on, not all of us have that luxury now do we?
Wouldn't be a cheap mod at all! I think there are uprated clutch pack's coming out for the 7speed DSG which will handle more torque. This will also be an expensive fit as the 7speed is apparently a sealed unit.
Ive got a boca on order comes mid march, i ordered it back at the beginning of december, don't know why its taking so long, im not to sure about all the mechanics of it but seems disappointing that we won't be able to do as much to our cars as we want to.
So boca/cupra will hold stage 1 remap with no problems.
Also i was wondering how would a dump valve be fitted to the turbo? :S
Seeing as in manual cars it dumps when you relieve the pressure on it by taking your foot off the gas?
So boca/cupra will hold stage 1 remap with no problems.
Also i was wondering how would a dump valve be fitted to the turbo? :S
Seeing as in manual cars it dumps when you relieve the pressure on it by taking your foot off the gas?
Why would SEAT or VW design something that can be modded, not really what they design things for.
The seven speed is indeed sealed, cant even change the oil (unlike the 6 speed). 3 bar+ internal pressure which is held I dont fancy opening it up either.
And the 1.4 TSi already has a recirculating dump valve, Forge do a spacer to make it more audible but its a PITA to fit and also doesnt offer any performance gains, just the noise.
The seven speed is indeed sealed, cant even change the oil (unlike the 6 speed). 3 bar+ internal pressure which is held I dont fancy opening it up either.
And the 1.4 TSi already has a recirculating dump valve, Forge do a spacer to make it more audible but its a PITA to fit and also doesnt offer any performance gains, just the noise.
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