i cant fit it now i have my nozzle there.. im quite happy with my charge pipe and mani for now.. thanks for offering though
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i cant fit it now i have my nozzle there.. im quite happy with my charge pipe and mani for now.. thanks for offering though
O yeh of couse.. Sill of me really. but surely you can cut up the cold side kit. See how mine goes together..
Ok mate. well let me know when/if. Going to be redoinf my inlet mani next weekend.
Thanks for the link Dave
Ok mate. well let me know when/if. Going to be redoinf my inlet mani next weekend.
Thanks for the link Dave
I think that any fuel tweaks you make other than warm up ones will just adapt out (fairly quickly).
cf's without wmi are ok for the occasional >6 when the cars hot, and 3-6s when cool, but if you run wmi, if you limit it to 3's, when the wmi fails (which it will) the knock sensors have enough headroom left to save you from disaster.
Water slows down the flame front speed, so you can ignite the charge earlier without the max pressure rise occurring too early (before the piston is travelling down), and get more of the pressure rise over before the exhaust valves open. It also increases charge density (mass) so there is more mass expanding and pushing against the piston.
Maximum power is achieved if when you take the absolute maximum expansion (and consequently temperature) out of the charge. Low egts=max efficiency from charge. When you ramp up charge density, and rpm, the time available for the charge to burn/expand is reduced, egt's climb, efficiency drops. The sooner you can ignite the charge without knock, the more power can be extracted on the expansion stroke.
Cooling the intake charge has the same effect (intercooling), so wmi can be win win.
The third benefit is that the meth is additional fuel (v high octane) which needs twice as much air to burn, and messes with lambda measurement a little, but at 5% addition will not do any harm, and gives a good octane improvement.
Fueling is generally over rich to provide charge cooling where inter cooling is insufficient. Max power will be made somewhere in the 12.5-13:1 region, but most over fuel to provide charge cooling when turbos and their inter coolers are pushed too hard. That's the beauty of wmi, no need for over rich (power sapping) af ratios.
cf's without wmi are ok for the occasional >6 when the cars hot, and 3-6s when cool, but if you run wmi, if you limit it to 3's, when the wmi fails (which it will) the knock sensors have enough headroom left to save you from disaster.
Water slows down the flame front speed, so you can ignite the charge earlier without the max pressure rise occurring too early (before the piston is travelling down), and get more of the pressure rise over before the exhaust valves open. It also increases charge density (mass) so there is more mass expanding and pushing against the piston.
Maximum power is achieved if when you take the absolute maximum expansion (and consequently temperature) out of the charge. Low egts=max efficiency from charge. When you ramp up charge density, and rpm, the time available for the charge to burn/expand is reduced, egt's climb, efficiency drops. The sooner you can ignite the charge without knock, the more power can be extracted on the expansion stroke.
Cooling the intake charge has the same effect (intercooling), so wmi can be win win.
The third benefit is that the meth is additional fuel (v high octane) which needs twice as much air to burn, and messes with lambda measurement a little, but at 5% addition will not do any harm, and gives a good octane improvement.
Fueling is generally over rich to provide charge cooling where inter cooling is insufficient. Max power will be made somewhere in the 12.5-13:1 region, but most over fuel to provide charge cooling when turbos and their inter coolers are pushed too hard. That's the beauty of wmi, no need for over rich (power sapping) af ratios.
hehe 
so no point in fuel tweaks then John? where to go from here then. if i need to push timing to burn the meth is my timing advanced enough to do it?
so no point in fuel tweaks then John? where to go from here then. if i need to push timing to burn the meth is my timing advanced enough to do it?
This is the part from that link that sums it up
"pressure and temperature are strongly linked, knock can also be attenuated by controlling peak combustion chamber temperatures at the engineering level by compression ratio reduction, exhaust gas recirculation, appropriate calibration of the engine's ignition timing schedule, and careful design of the engine's combustion chambers and cooling system. As an aftermarket solution, a water injection system can be employed to reduce combustion chamber peak temperatures and thus suppress detonation."
"pressure and temperature are strongly linked, knock can also be attenuated by controlling peak combustion chamber temperatures at the engineering level by compression ratio reduction, exhaust gas recirculation, appropriate calibration of the engine's ignition timing schedule, and careful design of the engine's combustion chambers and cooling system. As an aftermarket solution, a water injection system can be employed to reduce combustion chamber peak temperatures and thus suppress detonation."
i was thinking the same earlier.... well i was wondering if i can make a sleeve up to make it standard again.
i didnt buy it because it was bigger, it was a bling thing
im not sure what to do Dave, it does run good power with it so do i need to change it .. i do want to be able to push the timing more.... will a standard one do that though?
I'm thinking the tube is helping you make good numbers by making Revo a tad leaner......
Move on with the wmi, bearing in mind - as John says - what happens if the wmi fails....
Move on with the wmi, bearing in mind - as John says - what happens if the wmi fails....
have a look at this log from last night Dave. with WMI running B7 T8 as the last log i posted.
its pretty much running on the rich side of requested all the time.
Code:
Sunday 8 March 2009 20:25:12
1ML 906 032 A 1.8l R4/5VT 03 0001
Group A: '031 Group B: '115
Lambda Factor Lambda Factor Bin. Bits Bin. Bits RPM Load Absolute Pres. Absolute Pres.
TIME TIME
MARKER STAMP STAMP /min % mbar mbar
24.56 0.961 1 24.14 2240 31.6 980 990
25.36 0.992 1 24.96 2440 54.1 990 1100
26.15 0.953 1 25.75 2880 86.5 1500 1330
26.95 0.93 0.961 26.55 3520 109.8 1910 1490
27.77 0.86 0.883 27.37 4560 173.7 2390 2480
28.57 0.86 0.86 28.17 5640 172.2 2280 2310
29.37 0.883 0.922 28.99 6360 148.9 2230 2270
30.19 0.914 0.883 29.77 4680 99.2 2250 1470
30.99 0.875 0.867 30.59 5240 175.2 2320 2350
31.79 0.836 0.86 31.39 5720 168.4 2270 2270
32.59 0.844 0.86 32.19 6160 150.4 2220 2280
33.4 0.75 0.93 33 6520 148.9 980 2160
34.2 0.844 0.875 33.8 5200 144.4 2240 2110
35 0.867 0.86 34.6 5480 165.4 2280 2350i am happy to carry on logging and pushing it. if it breaks i have a second car..... lol it is a peugeot though so im not sure how long i could drive that around for.
Sorry for asking all the Noob Questions. Buy when the engine has to "CF" whats it actualy doing?
And a big repaire bill.. Dont forget why you bought WMI in the first place mate! To have a safer engine.. I know you got the bug.. but done push it to much or you might regret it.
Also what i dont understand is why i can run 9-9 and u cant? and you have WMI? Even with WMI off wasent you getting alot of CF's?
And a big repaire bill.. Dont forget why you bought WMI in the first place mate! To have a safer engine.. I know you got the bug.. but done push it to much or you might regret it.
Also what i dont understand is why i can run 9-9 and u cant? and you have WMI? Even with WMI off wasent you getting alot of CF's?
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i'd play with injection rates and mixtures to see which improves timing the most.
Don't take injection rates off manufacturers charts. Measure them yourself. Nozzle into measuring jug for 30secs should be accurate enough.
Take your peak fuel flow and try to get 10% water, or 15% w/m.
Keep increasing rates until you see no improvement in knock suppression.
This is all a long winded exercise so you could just stick to the injection rates above. They have been found to work by aquamist, and may not be optimal for every engine, but they shouldn't be far out.
Don't spend too much time on it though. Is it worth running too close to the edge for 5hp. Go drive the thing and try not to loose your licence.
And dave an over size maf tube when your ecu has not been calibrated for it is not the best idea. You may be lucky and accidentally cause some minor gains, but it could just as easily be detrimental.
we are all hampered by our over sensitive knock sensors, or rather the ecu's reactions on seeing it. The speed at which the timing is pulled back on seeing potential knock can be slowed down, but I doubt you'll get a tuner to do it for you. You get what timing the knck sensors will allow, not much you can do without going aftermarket ecu.
Don't take injection rates off manufacturers charts. Measure them yourself. Nozzle into measuring jug for 30secs should be accurate enough.
Take your peak fuel flow and try to get 10% water, or 15% w/m.
Keep increasing rates until you see no improvement in knock suppression.
This is all a long winded exercise so you could just stick to the injection rates above. They have been found to work by aquamist, and may not be optimal for every engine, but they shouldn't be far out.
Don't spend too much time on it though. Is it worth running too close to the edge for 5hp. Go drive the thing and try not to loose your licence.
And dave an over size maf tube when your ecu has not been calibrated for it is not the best idea. You may be lucky and accidentally cause some minor gains, but it could just as easily be detrimental.
we are all hampered by our over sensitive knock sensors, or rather the ecu's reactions on seeing it. The speed at which the timing is pulled back on seeing potential knock can be slowed down, but I doubt you'll get a tuner to do it for you. You get what timing the knck sensors will allow, not much you can do without going aftermarket ecu.
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thanks for the advice John, ill get the mrs's jugs out at the weekend
youre making me think i should be making a sleeve to reduce the ID now.
Got ya. So the less CF the more you can advance the timing. Again.. dont see why you cant run 9 timeing aaron? Strange.. So how does the engine detect Knock?
Got ya. So the less CF the more you can advance the timing. Again.. dont see why you cant run 9 timeing aaron? Strange.. I think we need another beer and food so you can explain it all to me
I also still have a hissing on full boost..
beer sounds good but not sure im the man to talk to about things like this.
i have my car booked in at TotalVag on Friday for a leak check.... very cheap mate, gets yours done too?
Code:
Engine Speed Mass Air Flow Throttle Valve Angle Ignition Timing Retardation Timing Retardation Timing Retardation Timing Retardation
TIME (G28) (G70) Timing Angle TIME Cylinder 1 Cylinder 2 Cylinder 3 Cylinder 4
STAMP /min g/s % °BTDC STAMP °KW °KW °KW °KW
497.72 4760 200.02 100 23.3 497.42 0 0 0 0
498.34 5120 231.04 100 15 498.02 0 0 0 0
498.93 5440 268.70 100 14.3 498.63 0 0 0 0
499.53 5840 296.12 100 16.5 499.23 0 0 0 0
500.14 6160 312.92 100 21.8 499.83 0 0 0 0
500.74 6520 322.37 100 18.8 500.44 0 0 0 0
501.35 6840 328.31 100 23.3 501.04 0 0 0 0
501.95 7200 324.54 100 20.3 501.65 0 0 0 0
502.56 7480 330.25 100 27 502.26 0 0 0 0
503.16 7760 327.69 100 27 502.87 0 0 0 0one of mine for comparison
There are two knock sensors bolted to the block just below the inlet manifold. They are like microphones and are tuned to the frequency of the ping from knock. They have to be torqued correctly to work properly.
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