biodiesel

[jordanogrady]

Wow this is very interesting!

Would you recommend a 50:50 then with a 140 TDI 2006?

Jordan

 

[OLDOILER]

Can we have this has a sticky please - it will come up again and again !!

 

[jordanogrady]

I've just found this on a site, dont know if this is the actual method............

Making BioDiesel
- It’s a piece of piss

There’s nothing we like more at SchNEWS towers than a spot of DIY, be it a pint of homebrew or a free party. But one piece of DIY that we reckon is up there with free parties is home made diesel.

Yep, forget about handing your hard-earned coffers over to the corrupt, greedy and killing corporations like Shell and BP, take a squeezy bottle, a piece of sticky backed plastic and make your own biodiesel. No seriously, biodiesel is a fuel made from waste vegetable oil, of which there is literally tons of the stuff being dumped in landfill sites up and down the country! This otherwise waste is easily collected from chip shops and restaurants and without too much hassle processed to make biodiesel that can be used to run any diesel engine. Biodiesel, far from being an inferior homemade product, is better for your engine than the usual crappy fossil-based fuel that is helping to screw up the environment and people’s health. Biodiesel can be made in your own backyard with little start up cost involved and works out at about 30 pence per litre. Wanna know more? Then read on.

Let’s first rewind and go back to the beginning of the 1900s where Dr Rudolf Diesel has just invented the diesel engine and is displaying it at the Paris exhibition. Sat right there is the mother of all diesel engines happily chugging away running on peanut oil! Rudolf had designed the Diesel engine to be run a variety of fuels and during his Paris speech said, "the diesel engine can be fed with vegetable oils and will help considerably in the development of the agriculture of the countries which use it." Sounds good for developing countries but not so good for the petroleum industry. A few years later and Rudolf Diesel’s body is found drifting face down in the English Channel. After holding secret talks with the UK navy about fitting diesel engines into their submarine fleet Rudolf Diesel was killed by the French to stop his diesel technology being fitted into submarines over the world, nothing new there then! After Diesel’s death the petroleum industry capitalised on the diesel engine by naming one of their crappy by-products of petroleum distillation ‘diesel fuel’. That’s how dirty diesel fuel has come to be the fuel for diesel engines.

Fast-forward to the beginning of a brave new millennium, one where oil is running out, the climate is ****ed and Biodiesel can save the world, well no but it can do its bit!

A few facts on biodiesel

Biodiesel is biodegradable and non-toxic. 100% biodiesel is as biodegradable as sugar and less toxic than table salt. It biodegrades up-to four times faster than petroleum diesel fuel with up-to 98% biodegradation in three weeks. However, contrary to a popular misconception, it stores indefinitely in completely full, cool, dark containers. Compared to crappy fossil fuel diesel, biodiesel has the following emissions characteristics:

*
100% reduction of net carbon dioxide
*
100% reduction of sulphur dioxide
*
40-60% reduction of soot emissions
*
10-50% reduction of carbon monoxide
*
a reduction of all polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and specifically the reduction of the following carcinogenic PAHs:
*
phenanthren by 97%
*
benxofloroanthen by 56%
*
benz-a-pyrene by 71%
*
aldehydes and aromatic compounds by 13%
*
5-10% reduction of nitrous oxide depending on age and tuning of vehicle.

For every one ton of fossil fuel burnt, 3 tons of CO2 is released into the atmosphere, biodiesel only releases the CO2 that it has taken in while the plants it is made from were growing, therefore there is no negative impact on the carbon cycle.

How to build a single tank biodiesel processor

Firstly though, we have to say that our biodiesel expert is not longer involved in SchNEWS so we are not able to offer any advice or further information on the subject further than what's here. There are websites listed at the bottom of the page which contain loads more info. Please don't email us asking questions about biodiesel as we won't be able to help.

Equipment required

*
45 gallon drum.
*
1/2 or 3/4 Hp electric motor.
*
Two pulleys which produce 250 rpm and a max of 750 rpm at mixer blade.
*
A belt for the above.
*
12 inch rolled steel rod.
*
Two steel shelf brackets (for the blade).
*
1 1/2 inch (38mm) brass ball valve.
*
A hinge and a spring to act as a belt tensioned.
*
2000-watt electric water heater element.
*
A water heater thermostat.
*
1 1/2 diameter piece of steel pipe * 3-5 inches long with male threads on one end.
*
Assorted tat: angle iron, wood, screws etc.

Assembly

1. Cut a large opening (about half the top) in the top of the steel drum.
2. Drill 11/2-inch hole in the bottom of the drum.
3. Weld the 1 1/2-diameter pipe in the hole at the bottom of the drum.
4. Attach the 1 1/2-inch brass ball valve to the pipe. This is the drain valve.
5. Drill a hole in the side of the drum at the bottom, same size as the heater element.
6. Fit the heater element making sure it is not touching the side of the drum.
7. Wire up the heater element.

Chemical mixer

1. Attach one pulley to the rolled steel rod.
2. Attach the other pulley to the spindle of the electric motor.
3. Weld the propeller to the other end of the rolled steel rod (shelf brackets).
4. Attach the rod, pulley and propeller assembly to one side of the hinge.
5. Weld a piece of angle iron across the top of the drum.
6. Weld the unattached side of the hinge to the angle iron so the propeller and rod assembly sits in the middle of the drum. The hinge should swing the propeller and rod back and forth.
7. Mount the electric motor on the side of the drum.
8. Fit the belt to the pulleys and tighten by wedging a block of wood into the hinge.

You also need to fashion a simple wooden measuring stick with 10 litre increments.

Other bits and bobs

A hydrometer is a good piece of kit to have to measure the specific gravity of the biodiesel. The specific gravity of biodiesel should be between 0.860 and 0.900, usually 0.880. The specific gravity of vegetable oil is 0.920 therefore the specific gravity of biodiesel should be lower than the vegetable oil used to make the biodiesel.

How to make biodiesel

Every time you make a new batch of biodiesel using old vegetable oil you have to find out the amount of reactants required to get the correct reaction, this process is know as titration. In addition to the above equipment you will also need the following equipment:

Petri dish

20 ml beaker

1500 ml beaker

500 ml beaker

Isopropyl alcohol

A graduated eye dropper

Litmus paper

Blender with a glass bowl.

Methanol

Used cooking oil

Sodium Hydroxide

Titration

Step 1 Titration: to determine the quantity of catalyst required

1. Measure 1 gram of Sodium Hydroxide onto a petri dish
2. Measure 1 Lt. of distilled water into a 1500 ml beaker.
3. Pour the 1 gram of Sodium Hydroxide into the 1 Lt. of distilled water
4. Label ‘do not drink Sodium Hydroxide’
5. Measure 10 ml of isopropyl alcohol into a 20ml beaker
6. Dissolve 1ml of used vegetable oil into the isopropyl alcohol.
7. Label oil/alcohol.
8. Use the graduated eye dropper to drop 1 millilitre of Sodium Hydroxide /water solution into the oil/alcohol solution
9. After 1 millilitre of Sodium Hydroxide /water solution is added check the pH
10. Repeat steps 8&9 until the oil/alcohol reaches a pH of between 8&9. The pH increase will usually occur suddenly. Usually no more than 3 millilitres of Sodium Hydroxide /water solution will need to be added.
11. Use the following equation: · the number of millilitres of the Sodium Hydroxide/water solution dropped into the oil/alcohol mixture = x · (x+3.5)=N

· N= the number of grams of Sodium Hydroxide required to neutralise and react 1 Litre of used vegetable oil.

· N will be between 4.5-6.5, but it can be higher if the oil has been used for a long time.

Step 2. Measure the reactants

Measure the reactants in separate containers

1 Litre of filtered used oil into a 1500ml beaker

200 ml of methanol into a 500 ml beaker

N grams of Sodium Hydroxide onto a petri dish

Step 3. Dissolve the Sodium Hydroxide into the Methanol

The third step is to combine the methanol with the Sodium Hydroxide to create sodium methoxide, an extremely strong base. Once the Sodium Hydroxide has been dissolved in the methanol, the sodium methoxide must be mixed with the vegetable oil straight away.

· Carefully pour the methanol into the blender, any spills must be cleaned immediately with a water and vinegar solution.

· Carefully pour the Sodium Hydroxide into the blender

· Replace the lid of the blender and blend on the lowest setting for 30 seconds, until the Sodium Hydroxide has dissolved. Sodium methoxide has been produced and caution must be exercised

Step 4. Mix the reactants

· Remove the lid of the blender keeping your face well away from the top of the blender

· carefully pour the vegetable oil into the blender

· Place the lid on the blender and blend on a medium/high setting for 15 minutes. If the bowl or the blender motor get over hot switch off the blender and leave until cooled down sufficiently to continue again.

Step 5. Allow the glycerine to settle

Settling takes about 8 hours but since 75% of the separation occurs within the first hour after the reaction immediate separation will be visible. Within 8 hours the glycerine will have fallen to the bottom leaving a layer on top, this is methyl esters, or more commonly referred to as biodiesel

Step 6. Separation

After blending the contents can either be transferred into a 1500ml container with a stopcock or left in the blender for at least 8 hours.

Step 7. Clean up

Store the leftover used vegetable oil in a dry cool place

Clean all the equipment so it is ready to use again

Expose the glycerine to air and sunlight for 1 week and then use as soap.

Pour the biodiesel into your fuel tank and laugh like ****!

So there you have it, fuel from vegetable oil. Of course this is only one method of making biodiesel, there are many recipes for making biodiesel just take a look through the web sites at the end of this article. Don’t be fooled into thinking that biodiesel is anything but a serious contender in the alternative fuels market, throughout the world there are commercial processors being built to supply a rapidly emerging market. The UK government however, has chosen to ignore biodiesel, this is their mistake and something we can capitalise on. Let’s start making biodiesel and get production down to the local small scale level with co-operatives and individuals supplying all our needs while taking power away from the mega-corporations.

For more information on biodiesel check out www.planetfuels.co.uk rather than emailing us (please, you wouldn't believe how many people do email us) - we're no experts, unfortunately. Alternatively the first book on the following website (LILI: how to make biodiesel by Dan Carter & Jon Halle) has been recommended to us: www.lowimpact.org/acatalog/books_biodiesel.html The Low Impact Living Initiative website also has other information and equipment for biodiesel and other related topics.

Other Useful web sites:

www.biodieselcommunity.org

www.biodieselfuelonline.com

www.lazymansguideto.com/Making-Biodiesel.html

www.veggievan.org

www.dancingrabbit.org/biodiesel

 

[stuartsjg]

Hi,

I know you can make it but ive never had the inclination to do so. I may look into it some time but i live in a flat and whilst i can get away with building crazy things like jet engines at the back of my works workshop, i think making fuel would be too far.

I also know for a fact that most modern cars cannot deal with 100% bio-diesel, even the fully certified stuff which is made to strict standards.

Its this 30% bio : 70% mineral that morrisons are selling. Is 30% ok to use or does it invalidate warranties on the seat diesels? A firm answer would be good as most the official things ive seen say no to 100% (which is not surprising) but no mention of the 30% blend avaliable at the pumps.

Stuart

 

[stuartsjg]

Hi, bio_derv

Im just looking into this bio-diesel lark. I did once make a small batch (a few L) as we had some of the chemicals at the office and fancied giving it a go. We only used it in a cement mixer which a friend had.

Ive just bought an 08 Leon FR TDI 170 and i get conflicting messages about bio-diesel which are probably due to the term "bio-diesel" applying to diffirent oil sources, namely RME and veg-oil. As RME is the more commerical thing and has EN standards applied most the do's and dont's from car manufacturers referr to this.

Many users like you say no probs, go for it! everythings fine whilst some users (seremotors) list a load of do's and dont's. These seam to apply to RME source diesel tho, which i beleive behaves differently to veg-oil source.

Whats your thoughts?

I am a design engineer and have access to various bits and pieces to design and build a small production unit and would probably make it automatic using a PLC and sensors (once i get the basics!) But ill only do all that if im confident i dont harm my baby which will ill have by tomorrow (assuming things go ok with dealer)

Thanks,
Stuart

indeed it does, but so does nearly every new car, then in back of ym manual says i can run on it. and i am, which is saving me about £45 a fill up.
If it goes bang, its under warranty

SEATs currently have a ‘No Bio Fuel’ sticker on the inside of the filler flap, which relates only to fuel with a biodiesel content of more than five per cent, including 100 per cent biodiesel. None of SEAT’s current production vehicles are suitable for use with 100 per cent biodiesel, which will decrease engine durability and invalidate the manufacturer’s warranty.

Summary

• Vehicles that do not have the factory preparation for biodiesel cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with a common-rail fuel injection system cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with pumpe düse injectors cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel; however EN590 containing up to five per cent biodiesel is approved for use with DPF.
• 100 per cent biodiesel vehicles cannot be used in temperatures below -10°C.
• The use of 100 per cent biodiesel may slightly reduce the driving performance of the vehicle and slightly
increase the fuel consumption.
• The use of 100 per cent biodiesel may mean the vehicle needs to be serviced more frequently.

 

[Tuscan_No27]

Hi, bio_derv

Im just looking into this bio-diesel lark. I did once make a small batch (a few L) as we had some of the chemicals at the office and fancied giving it a go. We only used it in a cement mixer which a friend had.

Ive just bought an 08 Leon FR TDI 170 and i get conflicting messages about bio-diesel which are probably due to the term "bio-diesel" applying to diffirent oil sources, namely RME and veg-oil. As RME is the more commerical thing and has EN standards applied most the do's and dont's from car manufacturers referr to this.

Many users like you say no probs, go for it! everythings fine whilst some users (seremotors) list a load of do's and dont's. These seam to apply to RME source diesel tho, which i beleive behaves differently to veg-oil source.

Whats your thoughts?

I am a design engineer and have access to various bits and pieces to design and build a small production unit and would probably make it automatic using a PLC and sensors (once i get the basics!) But ill only do all that if im confident i dont harm my baby which will ill have by tomorrow (assuming things go ok with dealer)

Thanks,
Stuart

Hi Stu

I'm running my Mk1 Leon FR quite happily on anything up to 100% bio on a home made rig. I'm chemical process engineer so I designed & built the rig myself. If you email me from my ID I'll send you my P&ID with instructions - it would lend itself very nicely to PLC control because I have something like 12 or 13 manual valves

Going back to your question, RME just stands for Rape Methyl Ester. The vast majority of vegetable oil in UK and Europe is derived from rapeseed. Vegetable oil's chemical name is triglyceride (3 ester molecules attached to a glycerol molecule). Once you process it with methoxide your strip the esters off the glycerol molecule (transesterification) so the gylcerol settles at the bottom (by-product) and you're left with crude methyl ester (biodiesel) at the top.

The benefit of rapeseed veg oil is that it has a low cloud point keeping it liquid at low temperatures and this characteristic seems to get passed onto its biodiesel derivative because I've been running at about 80 to 90% bio this last 2 weeks with ambient temps of -2degC.

It would be good to hear from any Mk2 FR owners running on bio in case I decide to trade in my faithful Mk1 at some stage.... running at 150bhp, 50mpg at 20p/litre bio for the last 10,000 miles sets the bar very high for any replacement car.

Cheers
Richard
Northumberland

 

[stuartsjg]

Hi,

from this forum and other sources, Seat/VAG did approve 100% bio for cars made up untill 2004. After that it appears you need to request a factory mod on the car when ordered new. Perhaps i can order "replacement parts"?

I see what you are saying with the chemical change, some info is overly simplistic, ive done seconday school chemisty then done it as a module at uni so i can understand the basics

With regards to bio-fuel at the pumps, i got this from BioDieselFillingStations.co.uk on the B30 that morrisons sell:

Hi
Yes absurd thing really as all diesel SEATs were made to be officially
compatible from 1996 to 2004. Then some EU standards changed any enthusiam
went due to bad imported biodiesel. The bad stuff is now disallowed
through the UKs RTFO so SEAT should make standard compatibility again.

I have heard that the Morrisons B30 DOES meet the EN590 - so your car
should be OK on it!!

Check with Morrisons though to be sure

Write to SEAT as well if you can be bothered.. consumer power can make a
difference

Regards
Adrian

Original Message:
-----------------
From: stuart
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:40:25 -0000 (UTC)
To: [email protected]
Subject: B30 bio-diesel at Morrisons

Hi,

Are you aware of car compatability with the 30% bio-fuel mix that
Morrisons have at their pumps?

I have an 08 Seat 2.0 TDI and they advise against using "bio-fuels" which
i assumes means 100% and fuel used should meet EN590 with upto 5% bio.
They can apply a factory mod by installing viton seals compatable with
100% but as its not a factory order i cant do it. Why they dont install
these seals as standard ive no idea. They cant cost that much more than
rubber.

From what i can tell only Peugeot and Citroen oficially allow it.

Are you aware if the Morrisons fuel complies with EN590 meaning i can use
it or is it risky going against user manual advise.

I understand that anything you reply will have a disclaimer about
following your advise, and possible going against manufacturers advise
etc.

Thanks in advance if you can help,

Stuart

I got data sheets on the fuel from Shell (they are very helpfull with fuel technical info) and asked if they happen to supply Morrisons bio-diesel and got this response:

Stuart,
Supermarkets by their fuel on the spot market, so what they supply
at the pumps can vary considerably from week to week. They will buy
from various oil companies.
With regards to the datasheet, I can't understand why they are so
reluctant to provide you with a spec. sheet, though they are obliged
to provide this information. Legally they are only required to supply
the Material Safety Data sheet as the supplier of the product.
Sorry I can't be of more help on this one.

Regards,
Rob.

Before i want to go to the extent of building a plant (probs a 60l batch size) i was going to run on normal diesel to see what it feels like, then change to morrisons then make a small few L from new oil and see what its like.

Ill check the user manual when i get the car, would have been today but i got stuck in traffic and missied the dealer!

Stuart

 

[Tuscan_No27]

Stuart

You might notice a very small drop in power but really, its only slight... I like my power but its only a small sacrifice and you only tend to notice the difference if you go back onto dino-diesel for a tankful.

I started with a 50 litre batch size but I also used a 120 litre plastic conical tank for separating the glycerol and subsequent water washing. I found my 50 litres a bit lost in there so I've now replaced the 50 litre drum with a 117 litre hot water cylinder turned upside down - its so much more efficient !

Before I ran bio I was concerned about the compatibility of my engine with this fuel. My handbook said it was ok but I rang Seat and they said they no longer recommend it. My car doesn't have the biodiesel mods on the engine code either so I asked if the parts could be retrofitted but the reponse was along the lines of "computa says nooooo" - they were clearly not going to endorse biodiesel, presumably to protect themselves against warranty claims from numpties throwing old chippie oil complete with fish heads into their tanks. But from my experience so far all is fine.

I tend to let the glow pugs have two pre-heats before firing the car up first thing on these freezing mornings just to be sure I get a good combustion from the outset otherwise its a bit smokey for the half a minute.

Enjoy the new car - I want one

Richard

 

[stuartsjg]

Hi Tuscan, What car do you drive? If its not Mk2 FR 170, do you think/know there will be diffirences in the fuel delivery system?

Got car today (brilliant car by the way!! 100% right choise over a civic s) and it has the usual No BioDiesel in the fuel cap and the warnings about the part number (which i cant see anywhere on the plate on the car so i assume its not)

There is contradictory advise...

it says bio-diesel cannot be used due negative effect on the DPF...
-But you can add optional parts at time of order. I can only assume they cannot change how the fuel may affect the DPF so that effect must be rubbish or a translation error.
-Damage to rubber/seals is what worries me tho and why id stay away - unless the replacement cost is less than fuel cost savings (was £100/pm with 62hp corsa)

Stuart

 

[Tuscan_No27]

Hi Tuscan, What car do you drive? If its not Mk2 FR 170, do you think/know there will be diffirences in the fuel delivery system?

Got car today (brilliant car by the way!! 100% right choise over a civic s) and it has the usual No BioDiesel in the fuel cap and the warnings about the part number (which i cant see anywhere on the plate on the car so i assume its not)

There is contradictory advise...

it says bio-diesel cannot be used due negative effect on the DPF...
-But you can add optional parts at time of order. I can only assume they cannot change how the fuel may affect the DPF so that effect must be rubbish or a translation error.
-Damage to rubber/seals is what worries me tho and why id stay away - unless the replacement cost is less than fuel cost savings (was £100/pm with 62hp corsa)

Stuart

Hi Stuart

I have an 05 FR 150 which is the Pumpe Deuse engine which I believe means it has individual high pressure pumps on each injector rather than a common rail manifold with a single pump.... I may get corrected on this but that's my understanding. I don't think VAG/Seat are pursuing the PD engine design any longer.

I shared your concerns over seal failure but I think all modern engines use man-made elastomers these days rather than natural rubber so they tend to be resistant to bio-diesel. I left an o-ring suspended in a jug full of my fuel for a few weeks just to see if it started to corrode but it was fine.

I think one of the key things is that its important to wash the biodiesel with water after the initial separation of glycerol. I know some people put it straight in their car which would make the process very easy but there are still contaminants in the bio including surplus methanol which I would think is most likely to attack seals. Other contaminants include, soaps, and potentially mono or di-glycerides if there is any incomplete reaction.

The water washing process involves spraying water over the top of your bio so that fine drops of water fall through the bio picking up these contaminants on the way. After the first wash, the settled water is very milky but as you repeat the wash cycles, the water becomes increasingly clear until eventually its crystal clear - that's your washing end point. You then have bio with some fine drops of water so you now need to dry it using heat and mixing (or recirculation). Eventually it goes a nice clear olive oil colour. Its a bit time consuming but at least you know that the bio is now free of methanol and contaminants that could cause your engine problems.

I don't know anything about the DPF sensor but someone on another forum (see link) suggests you need to run 5 or 10% DERV to produce some CO2 for the sensor to work Fine by me.
http://www.tyresmoke.net/forum/bmw-3-series/107285-bio-diesel.html see the reply by the guy with a big letter 'N' as his avatar.

Sounds like the new car is living up to your expectations - good luck.

Richard

 

[stuartsjg]

Hi,

It is a common rail as far as im aware. I would think that too but i do know that valves etc that i buy for work do have various seal options, EPDM rubber, nylon, viton, natural rubber etc etc. I would hope the use modern seals! no doubt the one which has a trade off of initial cost vs. warrnty cost.

I understant the nessessity of washing, i have seen many forums/sites which dont mention it. When i 1st saw it mentioned i thought it a very sensible thing todo, particulary because of methanol remining in the fuel. Some forums/sites say dont bother with washing, its a waste of time etc etc. I dont think you can be so careless unless you are using it in an ancient Land Rover which can probably run from waste engine oil!

It appears the guy with the N is mistaken over the bio producing no CO2. There will be just as much CO2 comes out the exchuast for a given engine power delivery than with mineral diesel. Bio is still a hydrocarbon fuel source.

I think the bio produces less soot/carbon (i mean just carbon, not carbon dioxide) so the DPF may get confused that its not filling up as much or needing regenerated so much. Also, adding some DERV may allow some of its aditives to do some good work.

I may concider it for cash saving, esp after 36 hours of owenership ive kerbd the front passengers side 18" alloy and taken a bit out the tyre (see http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185539 for pix and the story. Save money on fuel and buy new wheels!!

Stuart

 

[alx_chung]

Hi,

It is a common rail as far as im aware. I would think that too but i do know that valves etc that i buy for work do have various seal options, EPDM rubber, nylon, viton, natural rubber etc etc. I would hope the use modern seals! no doubt the one which has a trade off of initial cost vs. warrnty cost.

I understant the nessessity of washing, i have seen many forums/sites which dont mention it. When i 1st saw it mentioned i thought it a very sensible thing todo, particulary because of methanol remining in the fuel. Some forums/sites say dont bother with washing, its a waste of time etc etc. I dont think you can be so careless unless you are using it in an ancient Land Rover which can probably run from waste engine oil!

It appears the guy with the N is mistaken over the bio producing no CO2. There will be just as much CO2 comes out the exchuast for a given engine power delivery than with mineral diesel. Bio is still a hydrocarbon fuel source.

I think the bio produces less soot/carbon (i mean just carbon, not carbon dioxide) so the DPF may get confused that its not filling up as much or needing regenerated so much. Also, adding some DERV may allow some of its aditives to do some good work.

I may concider it for cash saving, esp after 36 hours of owenership ive kerbd the front passengers side 18" alloy and taken a bit out the tyre (see http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185539 for pix and the story. Save money on fuel and buy new wheels!!

Stuart

The FR TDI is not available with the Common Rail 2.0 yet. So far its only on the Audi A4 and the Octavia vRS. Will prob be a while before it filters down to Seat.
Alex

 

[Tuscan_No27]

Ouch - nasty graze that and tyre too

Sounds like you're plenty savvy enough to make bio-diesel to help pay for it.

I'm going skiiing in January on the back of my cost savings by the way

 

[stuartsjg]

Ouch - nasty graze that and tyre too

Sounds like you're plenty savvy enough to make bio-diesel to help pay for it.

I'm going skiiing in January on the back of my cost savings by the way

OK for some!!!

Just been to dealer and for the same tyre its £120 fitted etc. Seam ok to you guys? Its an 18" dunlop as what came with it as standard. About 1 month ago on my old car which it cost me £80 something at quick-fit for a bog standard tyre for a corsa so probs its ok.

I hope a whole set doesnt cost £120 x 4!!!

I glanced on his screen at a quote/invoice and it was totalling £147.xx as a total but he says £120 as a total. I really hope a whole set isnt £147 x 4, will probe about forum and see what ppl say...

Id better be carefull as this is moving off topic.

Ill poke about under the engine, i thought i read the car was common rail but i mabey am getting confused with BMW 1 series or honda civic type S as thoes were my other car choises.

If its PD then i may be ok. Ill probs try a few L of morrisons 30% for some time and go from there. Small steps, i cant afford needing a new fuel system!!!

Even if i make up a 30% blend myself and creep it up im gonna be cheeper (found oil source, office canteen will give me theirs).

Stuart

 

[stuartsjg]

Hi, Had emailed SEAT with some questions on bio, really to see if they had changed their minds or anything like that. Was always being hopefull.

More so, i wanted to see if i could buy replacment parts like the ones they would fit if at time of ordering where you select the bio-diesel compatable option.

1st email to them

Hi,

Your user manual advises against B100 bio-diesel fuel. However the EN590 B5 is sutiable.

Can you advise what the maximum mix of bio and mineral diesel you can use is For example, B30 or B50 etc.

If 5 is the maximum, is it possible to upgrade or replace engine components so that higher concentrations of bio-diesel can be used As far as i know, its only the fuel pump as ive read that at time of order PR code 2G0 means the fuel pump is produced with a viton seal as opposed to standard seal.

If this upgrade can be bought, or a new pump can be bough and fitted at my local dealer then i would be insterested in a price for this.

Please note that when i referr to bio-diesel i mean properly refined fuel made to the German EN standard and not "garden shed" fuel or neet vegetable oil or other type of oil.

Reply back from them

Dear Mr Graham

Thank you for your e mail regarding this increasingly popular subject.

I am happy to provide the following information for you;

Certain vehicle models are approved to run on 100% Rapeseed Methyl Ester (RME) bio diesel to standard DIN EN 14214 and no other bio diesel can be used.

100% RME bio diesel compatible parts fitted during manufacture of the vehicle are denoted by the vehicle PR code 2GO, which is found on the data sticker usually located on the front door pillar, however some of the older vehicles may not have this PR code.

Vehicles that do not have the factory preparation for bio diesel cannot use 100% bio diesel.

Vehicles fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) cannot use 100% bio diesel (EN590 is approved).

100% bio diesel vehicles cannot be used in temperatures below -10 degrees C.

100% bio diesel may slightly reduce the driving performance of the vehicle and slightly increase the fuel consumption.

100% bio diesel may increase the frequency of the maintenance schedule on the vehicle.

Vehicles fitted with a common rail fuel injection system cannot use 100 percent bio diesel.

Vehicles fitted with pumpe duse injectors cannot use 100 percent bio diesel.

The legislation on bio diesel introduced on15th April, makes bio diesel a mandatory component in diesel offered at UK pumps. This ruling, which forces fuel suppliers to use at least 2.5 percent biofuel in diesel production, does not change the current situation at SEAT, which approves the use of diesel fuel containing up to 5 percent bio diesel in all of its diesel vehicles, the same amount allowed in the UK by motor fuel standard BS EN590.

BS EN590 fuel is also approved for vehicles fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF).

SEAT vehicles currently have a 'No Bio Fuel' sticker on the inside of the filler flap, which relates only to fuel with a bio diesel content of more than 5 percent, including 100 percent bio diesel. None of SEAT's current production vehicles are suitable for use with 100 percent bio diesel.

I can also confirm that it is not possible to retrofit any parts to enable the vehicle to become compatible with bio diesel.

I can check the PR codes for your vehicle with our technical department and will be able to advise you further if you could forward the following information;

Vehicle registration number

Vehicle chassis/VIN number


I hope this information is helpful to you.

Kind Regards

Liz Graham
SEAT Customer Service Advisor
SEAT National Contact Centre
[email protected]
[email protected]
0500 222 222

I replied back

Hi Liz, thanks for getting back so quickly with the info, its very helpful.

Can I confirm that if the car, when bought new, was ordered to be bio-diesel compatible, would the warnings about things that cannot use bio-diesel become non-existant?

The reason I ask is how the compatible parts undo any ill effect bio-diesel may have on the DPF, common rail or pumpe duse injections systems, be stopped by changing a few parts? I would have thought the compatibility issue was inherent in the technologies of these systems?

Also, if my car was compatible with bio-diesel, and I needed to buy an out of warranty spare for the parts which would have been upgraded for bio-diesel, surely I can buy these spares? In which case could I not buy them and have them fitted? Can you advise what parts get upgraded under the 2GO code?

The reg. number is xxxxxx, Leon FR 2.0 TDI 170PD. I will email back with the VIN number.

Thanks,

Stuart

And this morning received an email back

Dear Mr Graham

I can confirm that all the current models in the SEAT range are not compatible with bio diesel and cannot be ordered to be bio diesel compatible. Vehicles cannot have parts upgraded to become compatible as it is not simply matter of changing just some of the parts. Should any parts be changed and bio diesel used then this will invalidate the warranty. I have checked with our Technical Department and can confirm that your vehicle, registration number xxxxxxx and chassis number xxxxxxxxxxxxxx is not compatible and can therefore not be upgraded to become compatible with bio diesel.

I hope this answers all your questions.

Kind Regards

Liz Graham

What interests me is im being told that you cannot order any current SEAT model to be bio-diesel compatable. This goes agasint what the user manual and other forum users say.

Im not going to go further with them as i know it will be the same story.

Still seams like i would have to "risk" it if i were to use bio-diesel.

Stuart

 

[Tuscan_No27]

Well done Stuart for challenging them. Don't they talk cr*p ! How can they say that the 2GO engine code denotes the car is fitted with 100% bio compatible parts and then go on to say that none of the current models in the Seat range are not compatible with bio diesel.

Your engineering knowledge came through in your message and must have given her a headache. they rely on people just accepting the notion that everything that happens under the bonnet is magic and not to be questioned.

I wish they would just be honest and say the cars can run on 100% bio with engine code 2GO and 80% bio with other engine codes. The bio must conform to DIN EN 14214 and they will not honour warranty claims if the fuel is found to be sub-standard.

The only fact I agreed with in her correspondance was that you do see a drop in power and fuel economy. But at 15 to 20 per litre I'm happy to accept that.

I've been running at 90% this last 2 weeks in freezing temeratures and she's been good as gold. I'm due a service - I go to Just Diesels, Blaydon on Tyne who do a great job. I'm going to ask them to take a look at the head and injectors just out of interest. I'll report back when I've had this done.

Cheers
Richard

 

[sxi20vt]

At work weve have had a internal notice about bio diesel saying they can use bio upto 5% any more than that will invalidate any warranty on your car

 

[/dev/null]

I asked SEAT about using biofuel in my fr 170 and was told it would invalidate my warranty.

Also, if you're driving a highly tuned engine like the 170 then you'd be better of using the premium diesel fuels surely?

 

[stuartsjg]

I'm going to ask them to take a look at the head and injectors just out of interest. I'll report back when I've had this done.

If they are trustworthy then id tell them to you run on mostly bio-diesel and ask them to check out the compontnets which are liable to damage.

The story from SEAT is conflicting. Ive got all the injector, engine, etc, service and training manuals from erwin and they mention that you cannot use Bio-Diesel as it would make it impossible to guarantee the car would meet emissions standards.

Im wondering if they have not tested or programmaed the emission control system for use with bio-diesel and they are worried about the fines etc. that can be imposed if cars on the road dont do what they say on the tin.

Stuart

 

[SEATgod]

Hello SEAT do not approve the use of Bio-diesel on any SEAT vehicle with a PD engine or that complys to emission rating EU IV.

The only fuel approved is BS EN 590 which contains up to a maximum of 5% bio-diesel in 95% fossil fuel. - Normal forecourt Diesel, super diesel is also approved!

Morrisons new B30 bio-diesel is not approved either!

This is especially appareant in FR's (DPF engines) where the fuel coagulates the filter!

Only certain rotary pump engines are approved provided they have PR code 2GO.

I hope this helps.

KR