Hybrid K04 Turbo Discussion

[J@mes]

... James, you jammy git You were very nearly there and pulled out right at the last minute. In hindsight i wish i had done so

At least i can laugh about it though i suppose

yes and yes!

 

[Mitchy]

Bill which measuring block measures the WG duty cycle?

I will put a bit more pre load on the actuator like Jacob has told me to do. I'll give it a couple of turns to see if it helps

 

[Feel]

Block 118

 

[wild willy]

Sie, Your boost gague must be inaccurate:-

APR standard stage 2 requests 2270 boost @ 5000 RPM.
.................................................2060 boost @ 6480 RPM

multiplying by a VTune 5% increase =1.33 bar @ 5000RPM
............................................. = 1.1bar @ 7000 RPM

I don't understand how your car can achieve 1.45 bar @ 5000 rpm
1.25 bar @ 5000 rpm.
Even if the turbo is capable of it, how can the ecu request it if your running the above settings. I know your car is strong but i don't understand how.

 

[YerMother]

I was surprised when Sie got the 273whp result. If it were me, i would have went straight to JBS, paid my £40 and got an indication of the fly output. Maybe Sie just aint bothered, thats upto him It wasn't Sie that sold us this turbo, he only posted his results and then we all jumped in feet first, thinking we would get the same.

I couldn't see the point as I could see what the boost gauge was now reading, car was pulling really well and i was happy with the result comparing it with all the other cars that run on the day! IHI boys were getting 300WHP so i was slap bang in the middle of them and the standard k04s!

Remember i only got this to replace my blown turbo just thought it was worth a go for an extra £300 over brand new standard unit! I never advertised in anyway! Like you said you all jumped in feet first!

 

[YerMother]

Sie, Your boost gague must be inaccurate:-

APR standard stage 2 requests 2270 boost @ 5000 RPM.
.................................................2060 boost @ 6480 RPM

multiplying by a VTune 5% increase =1.33 bar @ 5000RPM
............................................. = 1.1bar @ 7000 RPM

I don't understand how your car can achieve 1.45 bar @ 5000 rpm
1.25 bar @ 5000 rpm.
Even if the turbo is capable of it, how can the ecu request it if your running the above settings. I know your car is strong but i don't understand how.

Thats just seems standard boost settings! Slap it up more!

 

[YerMother]

You sure thats 105% boost? PM me your email address Carl

 

[Scotty_b]

Can i just say im happy with my tubby, i thought my results were good considering the boost leak (when people put there hands over there ears when mines at full chat after listining to a 480bhp s4 you can tell theres a leak!) and the fact im on a generic map.

BUT if its not doing what it says on the tin then i would like to know!

 

[dsrr]

Strange though how the APR mapped cars always make the power at Awesome, my previous car pulled 220bhp at the wheels with 8 bhp losses at Awesome running APR Stage 2, ran it at TRL at Halifax on a Dyno Dynamics RR and it pulled 226 Fly and 33.5 bhp losses....more realistic I would say. I also ran the same car before it was mapped by anyone, just running BF Turbo, TIP, CAI and FMIC and it pulled 199 Fly and 165.5 wheelpower. A Dyno is only as good as the operator and no disrespect to Awesome but in their hands the Dyno is just a good tool for getting people in through the door, they don't have anyone who really understands the finite dynamics of mapping and using the Dyno, they rely on e-mailing the results to APR who 'virtual' map then e-mail the modified map back. I don't think that there is any substitute for hands on mapping.
Disappointing results for you guys, it is a lot to spend for only 10-15bhp gains.

 

[Feel]

They're bloody good at fiddling it to get it so consistent then!

Just looked on their site, all the plots are on there, apart from some "insider" knowledge on who's car was/wasn't running well on a particualr day they should speak for themselves.

Two cars picked at random, both Stage 1 (although one has a zorst) one APR, one Revo. 224/230whp & 225/227whp.

Which is which?

Edit: Two more plots from the JBS day at their old premises - 240 & 234 whp

 

[Mitchy]

Carl, when are you fitting your turbo mate? Will be interesting to see some hybrid logs from your car

 

[wild willy]

Carl, when are you fitting your turbo mate? Will be interesting to see some hybrid logs from your car

Soon I Hope, When ever i get spare time, i'm refurbing a small flat, its been standing idle for ages and is costing me a fortune. I'm looking forward to getting it fitted and RR with the other three but i can't justify writing off a complete day for it at the mo. very frustrating.......

 

[ibizacupra]

as a guide... sort of... my current turbo is £1300 worth of unit, and good for 500bhp on the right spec motor.
puts a k0x hyrid into context.

(ignoring manifold/DP in this comparison)

 

[Mitchy]

True Bill but you need the whole shabang with that turbo

Manifold/DP/Injectors/Fuel pump/Inlet mani/Engine rebuild-pistons/rods/valves and god knows what other goodies you have got Oil cooler/baffled sump etc

This was just supposed to be a £1000 mod, no more

But yes when in comparison to flow rates, it does show what you pay for. Ours seem very expensive in comparison to yours when compared.

 

[ibizacupra]

I know I omitted the other bits... (for obvious reasons) but the comparison is bang for buck on this k04 hybrid vs my evolution from VF34 to PE1820 to TD06-hybrid, the TD06-hybrid took me from 390bhp to 485bhp in one step. (Yes I made a manifold at the same time, but had I started with my manifold, which takes VF34 and PE1820, the rest would have been the same bar some detail pipe changes. Nearly 100bhp more from an already 390bhp.
The K04 hybrid does seem dear in comparison ~15-20bhp tops?

 

[Mitchy]

Yeah i would say so, 20bhp at maximum is all this turbo is going to get IMO.

However saying that, some people spend similar money on an exhaust system and get 1/2 that amount of power

 

[wild willy]

Here are some logs (118) of my stock turbo apr software using vtune @105 boost. (4th gear run)
2680 12 0 1350 0.35
2840 12 0 1350 0.35
3000 12 21.2 1410 0.41
3240 12 12.9 1380 0.38
3160 11 0 1270 0.27
2680 12 95.3 1180 0.18
2800 12 95.3 1780 0.78
3040 12 75.3 2540 1.54
3400 12 75.3 2540 1.54
3680 12 76.1 2540 1.54
3960 13 76.5 2540 1.54
4240 14 76.9 2540 1.54
4520 15 76.9 2530 1.53
4800 17 77.3 2430 1.43
5040 18 78.8 2390 1.39
5240 20 81.6 2320 1.32
5480 21 85.5 2270 1.27
5720 23 87.8 2200 1.2
5880 24 85.9 2170 1.17
6080 24 92.9 2090 1.09
6240 26 86.3 2130 1.13
6400 27 85.9 2070 1.07

Here is one of scotty's Hybrid

0.5 2520 25 0 1100
0.9 2600 24 0 1110
1.3 2600 24 0 1160
1.71 2360 24 0 1070
2.19 2120 25 0 1030
2.59 2080 26 100 1050
3.01 2120 25 100 1150
3.41 2200 24 100 1260
3.81 2240 24 100 1350
4.22 2360 24 98.4 1470
4.72 2440 23 96.1 1630
5.21 2600 23 95.3 1850
5.61 2720 22 65.9 2080
6.03 2880 22 49 2390
6.43 3040 22 43.5 2470
6.83 3160 21 46.3 2380
7.34 3360 21 48.6 2360
7.74 3520 21 49.8 2360
8.24 3680 21 49.8 2370
8.73 3880 22 49 2370
9.15 4000 22 52.2 2370
9.55 4160 23 50.6 2390
10.05 4360 23 52.5 2370
10.45 4440 24 51.8 2350
10.86 4800 24 50.2 2320
11.26 4720 24 52.9 2270
11.66 4840 24 53.3 2250
12.06 4960 25 53.3 2250
12.46 5080 26 54.1 2230
12.97 5240 27 55.7 2220
13.47 5360 27 56.5 2220
13.87 5480 27 53.7 2210
14.27 5560 28 56.5 2260
14.68 5680 29 57.6 2230
15.08 5760 29 56.5 2270
15.58 5880 30 56.9 2160
15.98 5960 30 60 2160
16.38 6040 31 62 2180
16.8 6120 31 63.1 2150
17.29 6200 32 63.1 2150


What i notice is that my duty cycle is alot higher. For a given rpm for a similar boost pressure, my turbo is much near its max as oppossed to the hybrid,
eg @ 6000 rpm standard turbo is 1.09 bar @ 93% wastegate.
......................... Hybrid turbo is 1.18 bar @ 62% wastegate.


Looks promising.
Does this mean that the actuator needs manual adjustment. after all the actuator is in the stock position and has not been adjusted for the new hybrid characteristic.

 

[Mitchy]

I done some 118 logging yesterday also Carl.

Give is a minute and ill post them up...

 

[Mitchy]

From going over them, they seem to change dependant on what gear the run was done in.

I done some 6th gear logging yesterday

In 6th gear it seemed to be nearly at max 90-95%

However 4th gear 75-85%



I have adjusted by 1mm so far.

 

[wild willy]

From going over them, they seem to change dependant on what gear the run was done in.

I done some 6th gear logging yesterday

In 6th gear it seemed to be nearly at max 90-95%

However 4th gear 75-85%



I have adjusted by 1mm so far.

I think what needs to be done here is this, (hoping Bill and Wilko will give us better advice):-
Scotty has the ability to add more boost demand via his sps, at the moment you can't so its a bit awkward for you to see results.
If scotty was to demand more boost at the red line ....1.3 bar say and then adjust his waste gate a little at a time he will either see a poisitive or negetive benifit. By simply adjusting the waste gate without increasing a load that is already being met i doubt you'll see a benifit.
Once scotty sees results he can advise you of the direction of adjustment and quantity on the wastegate and then you can go to jbs to crank up the boost which hopefully will be met.
I think Sie will benift from this also.
A rosey picture i'm painting, but lets hope.