Robbie C's Ibiza Cupra

[PhilW]

Great results robbie, gutted i wasnt there to see your runs. Ill be running another one there soon if you want to come along again, should be cheaper as well.

What plugs are you running and what gap as well?

 

[Robbie C]

Cheers Phil, yeah was a shame not to see you there. I'm up for another one once mine is sorted again

I'm running NGK BKR7Es on the standard gap. I'm wondering if I should replace them in case any detonation has weakened the electrodes. I worked out I've covered ~600-800 miles since the WMI has been broken.

 

[Backdraft]

Odd about the water meth. Is there no boost cut when the bottle runs low? Still great figures from the beast. Pop the plug gaps down to .64mm too.

 

[Robbie C]

Cheers Alex, yeah more than happy with the results

Bit weird about the WMI, hopefully just a controller I guess. I've always made sure I don't run low until I get round to wiring in an LED warning light at some stage, but I think the map just expects it all the time - no boost cut. It's normally when I've tried to drop from 5th to 4th you really feel it. I'll post up the VAG COM logs from the RR tomorrow, though they're a bit erratic.

How much protection will the knock sensors have been offering, i.e. can they pull CFs of ~10 back to safe territory?

The plugs are 9000 miles old now anyway so think I may replace them just to be safe in case the electrodes have been weakened.

Will have a look at the gapping too, thanks. What's the standard gap on those, .28?

 

[ibizacupra]

CF's can pull 12's

 

[ibizacupra]

you are talking like you have det with ZERO evidence of having had any... which you should'nt have as knock sensors and me7 are doing their job well

no different to someone running settings for 99 octane and dumping in 95 instead, same effect of CF's pulling back

pull back the 8.25 advance to zero until the wmi is workign again and all will be fine

 

[Robbie C]

Cheers Bill, it's only really been on the occasions where I've put my foot down and can feel the car struggling, like it's missing. Is that the timing being retarded?

 

[Robbie C]

Well after pulling the timing back to 0 last night with Lemmiwinks it turns out the car is missing under load which is what I could feel when driving it and had wrongly assumed it was caused by the advanced timing.

It's only an intermittent misfire, most commonly when going WOT in 4th but I can't pin it down to any one specific cylinder.

A VAG COM scan straight after the RR when it looks like the WMI also stopped working flagged:

VAG-COM Version: Release 409.1-US

Control Module Part Number: 6K0 906 032 AA
  Component and/or Version: 1.8L 20VT EU3    03 0002
           Software Coding: 10500
            Work Shop Code: WSC 12849
8 Faults Found:
17522 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor: B1 S2: Internal Resistance too High
        P1114 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
        P0300 - 35-00 - -
16687 - Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected
        P0303 - 35-00 - -
16688 - Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
        P0304 - 35-00 - -
16686 - Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected
        P0302 - 35-00 - -
16685 - Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
        P0301 - 35-00 - -
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys: Incorrect Flow
        P0441 - 35-00 - -
17658 - Fuel Level too Low
        P1250 - 35-00 - -

The EVAP code has since been mapped out by Bill and hasn't returned, and the fuel level code is probably due to the fact I'm using the LCR pump and haven't swapped the sender over yet.

After clearing these codes, resetting the ignition timing to 0 and going out for a drive last night I noticed it occasionally missing when on WOT and once home found these codes:

16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
        P0300 - 35-00 - -
16687 - Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected
        P0303 - 35-00 - -
17645 - Fuel Injector for Cylinder 1 (N30): Open Circuit
        P1237 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17646 - Fuel Injector for Cylinder 2 (N31): Open Circuit
        P1238 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17647 - Fuel Injector for Cylinder 3 (N32): Open Circuit
        P1239 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17648 - Fuel Injector for Cylinder 4 (N33): Open Circuit
        P1240 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16685 - Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
        P0301 - 35-00 - -
16688 - Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
        P0304 - 35-00 - -
17658 - Fuel Level too Low
        P1250 - 35-00 - -

The open circuit codes are from when I tried disconnecting each injector to see if it was a dead coil but it's only affected when the engine is under load

I'm wondering if the RR has weakened one or more coils just enough to make them struggle but not quite fail completely? The plugs are also nearly 10k old so I figure I may change both and go from there...

 

[Robbie C]

Here's the logs that were collected during the RR runs:

Sunday	21	February	2010	11:31:44						
6K0 906 032 AA										
										
	Group A:	'020				Group B:	'118			
		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 CF	 CF	 CF	 CF	STAMP	 /min	°C	%	 mbar
	2	0	0	0	0	1.6	1400	20	0	990
	2.91	0	0	0	0	2.4	1400	20	0	990
	3.81	7.5	11.3	11.3	11.3	3.41	1480	20	0	1000
	4.61	0	0	0	0	4.21	1600	19	0	1010
	5.41	6.8	0	11.3	0	5.01	1720	18	0	1020
	6.21	6.8	11.3	11.3	11.3	5.81	1640	18	0	1020
	7.01	0	0	0	0	6.61	1640	18	0	1030
	8	6.8	11.3	11.3	11.3	7.5	1640	18	0	1020
	8.91	3.8	8.3	8.3	8.3	8.51	1640	18	0	1020
	9.71	3.8	8.3	6.8	8.3	9.31	1680	18	95.3	1090
	10.51	3.8	8.3	6	6.8	10.11	1720	18	95.3	1210
	11.29	3.8	8.3	6	6	10.89	1920	18	95.3	1310
	12.11	3.8	8.3	5.3	6	11.69	2240	18	95.3	1490
	21.8	12	12	10.5	11.3	12.7	-58.5	231 001 200	15	118 033 255
	31.69	0	0	0	0	22.51	5840	35	7.5	25.41
	32.49	0	0	0	0	32.09	1600	24	78.4	1010
	33.39	0	0	0	0	32.99	2200	24	0	1060
	34.19	0	0	0	0	33.79	2280	24	0	1070
	34.99	0	0	0	0	34.59	2320	24	0	1070
	35.9	0	0	0	0	35.39	2200	23	0	1050
	36.7	0	0	0	0	36.3	2160	23	0	1070
	37.5	0	0	0	0	37.1	2160	22	0	1070
	38.3	0	0	0	0	37.9	1920	21	0	1050
	39.1	0	0	0	0	38.7	1840	21	0	1050
	39.9	0	0	0	0	39.5	1680	21	0	1040
	40.68	0	0	0	0	40.3	1720	21	0	1050
	41.48	0	0	0	0	41.08	1440	21	1.2	1030
	42.28	0	0	0	0	41.88	1480	21	0	1010
	43.08	0	0	0	0	42.68	1840	21	0	1050
	126.42	0	0	0	0	126.82	1680	19	0	1030
	127.22	0	0	0	0	127.62	1680	19	0	1030
	128.02	0	0	0	0	128.4	1720	19	95.3	1080
	128.8	0	0	0	0	129.2	1720	19	95.3	1200
	129.6	0	0	0	0	130	1920	18	95.3	1280
	130.4	0	0	0	0	130.8	2200	18	95.3	1450
	131.2	0	0	0	0	131.69	2520	18	94.5	4.3
	140.91	10.5	11.3	10.5	11.3	141.41	5720	34	1.2	2280
	141.81	0	6	6	6	142.21	4760	31	0	1220
	142.61	0	0	0	0	142.99	3320	30	0	1030
	143.39	0	0	0	0	143.79	2360	29	0	1010
	144.21	0	0	0	0	144.71	1600	27	0	1020
	145.11	3	3	3	3	145.6	1400	26	0	1020
	146	0	0	0	0	146.4	1600	24	0	1030
	146.8	0	0	0	0	147.2	1880	24	0	1050
	147.7	0	0	0	0	148.1	1520	23	0	1020
	148.5	0	0	0	0	148.9	1360	23	0	1020
	149.39	0	0	0	0	149.79	1360	22	0	1020
	150.19	0	0	0	0	150.7	1320	22	95.3	1000
	151.1	0	0	0	0	151.5	1480	21	43.1	1000
	151.9	0	0	0	0	152.3	1480	21	0	1010
	152.7	0	0	0	0	153.1	1600	21	0	1010
	153.5	0	0	0	0	153.89	1600	21	0	1030
	154.3	0	0	0	0	154.69	1800	21	0	1040
	155.09	0	0	0	0	155.49	1760	21	0	1030
	155.89	0	0	0	0	156.3	1760	21	0	1030
	156.7	0	0	0	0	157.09	1600	21	0	1020
	157.49	0	0	0	0	157.89	1960	21	0	1020
	158.29	0	0	0	0	158.69	960	21	0	1000
	159.09	0	0	0	0	159.49	960	22	0	1000
	159.89	0	0	0	0	160.29	1000	22	0	990
	160.69	0	0	0	0	161.09	960	23	0	990
	161.49	0	0	0	0	161.89	960	23	0	990
	162.29	0	0	0	0	162.69	960	23	0	990
	163.09	0	0	0	0	163.6	920	23	0	990
	164	0	0	0	0	164.4	920	23	0	990
	164.8	0	0	0	0	165.2	920	23	0	990
	165.6	0	0	0	0	166	1320	23	0	990
	166.4	0	0	0	0	166.8	1480	23	0	990
	167.2	0	0	0	0	167.6	1480	24	0	990
	168	0	0	0	0	168.4	1480	23	0	990
	168.78	0	0	0	0	169.18	1520	23	0	990
	169.58	0	0	0	0	169.98	1520	23	0	990
	170.4	0	0	0	0	170.89	1520	23	0	990
	171.29	0	0	0	0	171.69	1560	23	0	990
	172.19	0	0	0	0	172.59	1560	23	0	990
	172.99	0	0	0	0	173.39	1560	23	0	990
	173.79	0	0	0	0	174.19	1680	23	0	1000
	174.59	0	0	0	0	174.99	1800	22	0	1020
	175.39	0	0	0	0	175.79	1720	21	0	1040
	176.19	0	0	0	0	176.59	1720	21	0	1040
	176.99	0	0	0	0	177.39	1720	21	1.2	1040
	177.79	0	0	0	0	178.19	1760	21	95.3	1170
	178.59	0	0	0	3	179.08	1920	21	95.3	1280
	179.48	0	0	0	3	179.88	2240	21	95.3	1460
	180.38	0	0	0	3	181.07	2600	-765	203 239 015	203 231 009
	190.29	12	11.3	10.5	11.3	190.79	5800	37	-20	231 001 200
	199.98	0	0	0	0	200.47	1480	24	2.4	1010
	200.87	0	0	0	0	201.27	1520	24	0	1020
	201.77	0	0	0	0	202.28	1840	24	0	1050
	202.68	0	0	0	0	203.08	1760	24	0	1030
	203.48	0	0	0	0	203.88	1360	24	0	1020
	204.28	0	0	0	0	204.68	1640	24	0	1030
	205.08	0	0	0	0	205.48	2000	24	0	1030
	205.87	0	0	0	0	206.27	1840	24	0	1020
	206.67	0	0	0	0	207.07	1600	24	0	1020
	207.47	0	0	0	0	207.86	1400	24	0	1010
	208.26	0	0	0	0	208.66	1480	23	0	1030
	209.06	0	0	0	0	209.46	1400	23	0	1020
	209.86	0	0	0	0	210.26	1120	23	95.3	1010
	210.66	0	0	0	0	211.06	1240	24	95.3	990
	211.46	0	0	0	0	211.86	1720	23	0	1000
	212.26	0	0	0	0	212.78	1840	23	0	1040
	213.18	0	0	0	0	213.58	1840	23	0	1050
	213.98	0	0	0	0	214.38	1800	22	0	1050
	214.78	0	0	0	0	215.27	1600	21	0	1040
	215.67	0	0	0	0	216.17	1520	21	0	1040
	216.66	0	0	0	0	217.06	1200	21	95.3	1020
	217.58	0	0	0	0	217.98	1640	21	0	1030
	218.38	0	0	0	0	218.78	1680	21	0	1030
	219.18	0	0	0	0	219.67	1640	21	0	1040
	220.07	0	0	0	0	220.47	2000	21	0	1050
	220.87	0	0	0	0	221.27	1680	21	0	1040
	221.67	0	0	0	0	222.07	1600	21	0	1030
	222.57	0	0	0	1.5	222.97	1480	21	0	1030
	223.37	0	0	0	0	223.77	840	21	95.3	1000
	224.17	0	0	0	0	224.57	1160	21	0	1010
	224.97	0	0	0	0	225.37	1240	21	0	1000
	225.77	0	0	0	0	226.17	1480	22	0	1000
	226.57	0	0	0	0	226.97	1200	23	0	990
	227.37	0	0	0	0	227.77	1000	24	0	990
	228.17	0	0	0	0	228.57	1040	24	0	990
	229.06	0	0	0	0	229.46	1000	24	0	990
	229.86	0	0	0	0	230.26	960	24	0	990
	230.66	0	0	0	0	231.06	920	24	0	990
	231.56	0	0	0	0	232.07	920	24	0	990
	232.47	0	0	0	0	232.87	920	24	0	990
	233.27	0	0	0	0	233.67	920	24	0	990
	234.07	0	0	0	0	234.47	920	24	0	990
	234.87	0	0	0	0	235.36	920	24	0	990
	235.76	0	0	0	0	236.26	920	24	0	990
	236.66	0	0	0	0	237.06	920	24	0	990
	237.46	0	0	0	0	237.86	920	24	0	990
	238.26	0	0	0	0	238.66	920	24	0	990
	239.06	0	0	0	0	239.46	880	24	0	990
	239.86	0	0	0	0	240.26	920	24	0	990
	240.66	0	0	0	0	241.06	920	24	0	990

 

[ibizacupra]

owch!!!

FFS timing pull that high is wmi non-functional...
no wonder it faultered

Hang on tho, how come there is no boost above atmospheric on 118 block??? map sensor gone? (which tells wmi to run remember!)



coil packs will start to go when under peak cylinder pressure, ie when boost hits hard and you see peak torque

spark and coil field collapses hence misfire

one of the reasons peeps should carry spare coilpacks.. they are unreliable things

 

[Backdraft]

Does the WMI run off the oem map sensor then? No controller for it?

 

[ibizacupra]

Does the WMI run off the oem map sensor then? No controller for it?

yep, this particular controller runs of the signal 0-5v out from it

 

[Backdraft]

Do they do a controller with its own boost feed and internal sensor via a vac line?

 

[Robbie C]

Thanks again for all your input Bill.

From here I'm going to disconnect the WMI wire running off of the MAP sensor and re-log to see if this is interfering and get some new coils and plugs fitted. Then if it's still not registering any boost with the WMI controller completely out of the loop then I'll need to order a new MAP sensor too More updates to follow soon...

I'm also now wondering whether the car was running 100% even on run 1 on the RR... will be interesting to compare with another run once these issues are sorted I do remember smelling meth from the back of the exhaust though, which I'm told is noticable when overtaking

Alex, you mentioned re-gapping the plugs to 0.64mm up from what I think is 0.28 standard? What's the actual advantage of this; I assume it just creates a larger flame kernel for a cleaner burn?

 

[Backdraft]

Plugs are 0.80mm standard. It helps stop spark blow out at high rpm and boost.

 

[ibizacupra]

0.7mm is std on the NGK's I use - I seriously doubt 0.06mm will be detectable.. lol

usually closing down spark gap for high boost application (if) you have problem with spark energy...
more load on a coil to make a spark to jump a bigger gap under cylinder pressures is whats going on

 

[Robbie C]

Cheers. 4 new BKR7Es now on order, now I just need some coils...

I'm wondering whether the WMI failure has contributed to plug/coil breakdown? I.e. the water/meth stops contributing to the effective octane of the fuel which is ignited 8.25 degrees in advance, as well as losing any cooling benefits and hence leads to thermal overload from increased cylinder pressures, or even just too much increased thermal resistance, making the coils work too hard to conduct a spark? All just speculation but it intrigues me.

 

[ibizacupra]

coils just get weaker and with your extra power/boost/cyl pressure the weak spark shows itself

 

[Jairm88]

really detailed build thread good work

 

[Robbie C]

Thanks. Thought I'd upload the other RR print out I have showing all three runs so people can see what I was talking about before with runs 2 and 3 dropping off on power really early.

I'm now wondering whether the WMI was even functioning 100% on run one, bearing in mind that WHP is pretty much the same for all three