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Phil
I'm guessing your file is for a 69mm (id) maf from an s3/tt/r, so with a 73mm (id)maf it under reads at higher flows by roughly10%. This means you're seeing 250g/s which is about right for 1.5bar boost on a small port.
Your fuel trim is likely a function of the maf under reading by 10%.
Now mafs have different calibration curves so at low flows, its not as simple at just mutliplying the areas. This gives bigger mafs ok resolution at low flow, but it's just a function of air travelling faster down the centre of a pipe than at its walls. Higher flows will have a flatter velocity profile across the maf.
My 3076 was roughly that laggy on a 1.8, and 1bar boost level dropped by 8-900rpm when I went 2l.
with the current cracked housing, it still makes a bar by 4300, and 1.8 by 5000rpm.
Looking at that turbine map, you need 21lb/min to really get it spinning, and you're hitting that at about 4700 and low and behold, it starts to spool fast.
You need more boost now to make more power, as head flow on a small port peaks and goes flat at around 6500rpm, so in other words at fixed boost, engine flow doesn't increase much after 6500rpm.
You need headwork, 1.8bar boost and an 8k limiter to make that turbo work. That or a 2l
I'm guessing your file is for a 69mm (id) maf from an s3/tt/r, so with a 73mm (id)maf it under reads at higher flows by roughly10%. This means you're seeing 250g/s which is about right for 1.5bar boost on a small port.
Your fuel trim is likely a function of the maf under reading by 10%.
Now mafs have different calibration curves so at low flows, its not as simple at just mutliplying the areas. This gives bigger mafs ok resolution at low flow, but it's just a function of air travelling faster down the centre of a pipe than at its walls. Higher flows will have a flatter velocity profile across the maf.
My 3076 was roughly that laggy on a 1.8, and 1bar boost level dropped by 8-900rpm when I went 2l.
with the current cracked housing, it still makes a bar by 4300, and 1.8 by 5000rpm.
Looking at that turbine map, you need 21lb/min to really get it spinning, and you're hitting that at about 4700 and low and behold, it starts to spool fast.
You need more boost now to make more power, as head flow on a small port peaks and goes flat at around 6500rpm, so in other words at fixed boost, engine flow doesn't increase much after 6500rpm.
You need headwork, 1.8bar boost and an 8k limiter to make that turbo work. That or a 2l
Alright mate, thanks for chipping in. Appreciate it.
It was written for Alex @ Backdraft, i'll try and get him to confirm if it was any different for the 73mm MAF and 630cc injectors @ 3bar he ran. FYI Im running 73mm maf with 550's @ 4bar, so ~615cc, which im starting to think @ 1.8bar and 8k like you suggested are not going to be anywhere near big enough.
So what i mentioned earlier with the logs about taking 10% out via lemmiwinks isnt that far off the truth?
Do you think in all honesty then my setup isnt actually running that bad, just needs tweaking and that the hardware is ok, albeit possibly a bigger turbo than what i previously thought?
I wasnt planning on revving it as im on standard head (valves, spirngs etc..) but was looking to go largeport with a fully built head next year.
It was written for Alex @ Backdraft, i'll try and get him to confirm if it was any different for the 73mm MAF and 630cc injectors @ 3bar he ran. FYI Im running 73mm maf with 550's @ 4bar, so ~615cc, which im starting to think @ 1.8bar and 8k like you suggested are not going to be anywhere near big enough.
So what i mentioned earlier with the logs about taking 10% out via lemmiwinks isnt that far off the truth?
Do you think in all honesty then my setup isnt actually running that bad, just needs tweaking and that the hardware is ok, albeit possibly a bigger turbo than what i previously thought?
I wasnt planning on revving it as im on standard head (valves, spirngs etc..) but was looking to go largeport with a fully built head next year.
I'll look out the BT logs I have tonight phil
bell me later if you want with your email address to send them to etc
regards
bill
Must have been a 3rd gear run so a tad useless. I am reaching full load, but going by your logs you are not. I dont think it was the final map either. I do have some more logs on the laptop. I will hunt them out for tmoz.
I also ran a 3 bar map sensor so you will need to work out the boost as if its a 3 bar sensor. Iirc this was a 1.8 bar peak going off the defi.
Code:
Group A: '115 Group B: '020 Group C: '004
RPM Load Absolute Pres. Absolute Pres. Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization RPM Voltage Temperature Temperature
TIME TIME TIME
STAMP /min % mbar mbar STAMP °KW °KW °KW °KW STAMP /min V °C °C
0.24 3680 120.3 2360 1410 0.53 0 0 0 0 0.02 3600 13.37 87 21
1.14 4040 160.9 2440 1790 1.44 0 0 1.5 1.5 0.83 3920 13.65 86 22
2.03 4640 191.7 2450 2280 2.34 0 0 1.5 1.5 1.74 4480 13.37 87 24
2.94 5040 191.7 2440 2370 3.24 0 0 1.5 1.5 2.63 4840 13.65 87 24
3.84 5680 191.7 2510 2350 4.14 1.5 0 1.5 1.5 3.54 5520 13.37 87 27
4.74 5920 191.7 2550 2300 5.04 1.5 0 2.3 0.8 4.44 5840 13.72 87 29
5.64 6320 191.7 2550 2290 5.94 1.5 1.5 2.3 0.8 5.34 6200 13.65 87 30
6.54 6640 191.7 2550 2300 6.84 0.8 1.5 2.3 0.8 6.24 6560 13.51 87 33
7.44 6960 186.5 2550 2260 7.75 0.8 1.5 1.5 0 7.14 6880 13.23 86 34
8.34 4880 14.3 1000 1040 8.64 0 0 0 0 8.04 5800 13.72 86 33
9.24 5320 7.5 1000 910 9.54 0 0 0 0 8.93 5400 13.65 86 30I also ran a 3 bar map sensor so you will need to work out the boost as if its a 3 bar sensor. Iirc this was a 1.8 bar peak going off the defi.
I tried finding out what size the hotside is on this turbo as i dont really know, with the help of Bill, we think its a 0.82 a/r which would explain the late spool and not the 0.63. But not confirmed as i cant make out any of the markings on the hotside. Tried to take a pic or two so will post up my efforts. lol.
What you all think?
What you all think?
Last edited:
Looking at the Garrett website they are 84 trim?
740902-15 Turbine Option. But then again it doesnt list the compressor housing, which is a 0.60 a/r 3" inlet.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT30/GT3071R.htm
Any thoughts?
740902-15 Turbine Option. But then again it doesnt list the compressor housing, which is a 0.60 a/r 3" inlet.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT30/GT3071R.htm
Any thoughts?
I have another log with a bit more detail.
Code:
Group A: '115 Group B: '020 Group C: '002
RPM Load Absolute Pres. Absolute Pres. Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization RPM Load Inj. On Time Mass Flow
TIME TIME TIME
STAMP /min % mbar mbar STAMP °KW °KW °KW °KW STAMP /min % ms g/s
0.58 3160 82 2190 970 0.04 0 0 0 0 0.27 3120 75.2 5.33 47.67
1.48 3400 102.3 2240 1200 0.87 0 0 0 0 1.17 3320 94.7 6.56 61.69
2.37 3720 122.6 2320 1430 1.77 0 0 1.5 0 2.07 3560 114.3 8.2 81.28
3.28 4040 163.9 2430 1830 2.68 0 0 1.5 0 2.98 3880 149.6 12.3 118.36
4.18 4600 191.7 2440 2320 3.58 1.5 3 2.3 1.5 3.88 4320 191.7 16.4 171.19
5.08 5120 191.7 2440 2410 4.47 4.5 3 2.3 3 4.77 4840 191.7 18.86 207.64
5.98 5560 191.7 2450 2380 5.38 4.5 3 3.8 4.5 5.68 5400 191.7 19.27 221.39
6.88 6000 191.7 2510 2350 6.28 4.5 4.5 3.8 4.5 6.58 5880 191.7 18.45 239.22
7.78 6480 191.7 2520 2310 7.18 4.5 4.5 3.8 4.5 7.48 6280 191.7 17.63 246.81
8.68 6880 191.7 2550 2270 8.08 3.8 4.5 3.8 3.8 8.38 6640 191.7 17.22 249.14
46.46 3360 94 2290 1100 46.76 0 0.8 0 0 46.18 3280 86.5 5.33 56.56
47.36 3640 116.5 2340 1350 47.66 0 0 0 0 47.05 3520 108.3 7.79 75.64
48.25 4000 154.9 2430 1720 48.55 3 1.5 3.8 0 47.95 3880 140.6 11.48 107.83
49.16 4600 191.7 2440 2280 49.46 3 1.5 3.8 0 48.86 4360 191.7 15.58 167.08
50.06 5120 191.7 2430 2420 50.36 3 3 3.8 3 49.76 5000 191.7 19.27 220.06
50.96 5720 191.7 2500 2370 51.26 3 3 3.8 3 50.66 5480 191.7 19.27 220.89
51.86 6040 191.7 2550 2330 52.15 4.5 4.5 3 3 51.56 5920 191.7 18.45 236.83
52.76 6480 191.7 2540 2310 53.06 4.5 4.5 3 3 52.46 6400 191.7 17.63 242.89
187.71 3360 78.9 2320 920 187.99 0 0 0 0 188.3 3480 97 6.56 68.17
188.59 3600 105.3 2320 1210 188.89 0 0 0 0 189.2 3800 130.8 10.25 102.78
189.49 3920 145.9 2440 1610 189.8 1.5 0 0 0 190.1 4240 179.7 14.35 153.69
190.4 4400 191.7 2460 2170 190.69 2.3 3 0 0 191 4800 191.7 18.45 200.5
191.3 5040 191.7 2450 2410 191.6 2.3 4.5 3 1.5 191.9 5400 191.7 19.27 224.08
192.2 5560 191.7 2510 2390 192.5 2.3 5.3 4.5 4.5 192.8 5800 191.7 18.45 232.5
193.1 6000 191.7 2500 2350 193.4 3.8 5.3 6 4.5 193.7 6320 191.7 17.63 243.72
194 6440 191.7 2490 2310 194.3 3.8 6.8 6 4.5 194.6 6680 191.7 17.22 254.78
194.9 6800 191.7 2470 2330 195.2 3.8 6.8 6 4.5 195.5 7080 191.7 16.4 260.31
195.8 7240 189.5 2490 2280 196.1 3 6.8 5.3 3.8 196.41 7320 184.2 15.99 256.42Thanks a lot for that Alex, good to see your logs to compare. Shifting some air wasnt it?!?!
You're not hitting peak boost til 5k not far off when i am, granted it was 1.8bar vs my 1.4. Whats your turbo again? 2871? trim and a/r?
You're not hitting peak boost til 5k not far off when i am, granted it was 1.8bar vs my 1.4. Whats your turbo again? 2871? trim and a/r?
It did make some good maf figures. I dont know what the calculation is from the S3 maf to the S4 maf?
Peak boost felt higher. Maybe the defi picked it up faster than the oem map sensor. It was the 2871 with the .86 hotside: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2871R_743347_2.htm
gt3071,t25,0.86a/r, 2ltr 20v
same car
Code:
Saturday 7 August 2010 16:01:27:61786 VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0 Data version: 20100630
06A 906 032 DE 1.8L R4/5VT G03 0001
Group A: '002 Group B: '020 Group C: '118
Engine Speed Engine Load Injection Intake Air Mass Cylinder 1 Ignition Cylinder 2 Ignition Cylinder 3 Ignition Cylinder 4 Ignition Engine Speed Intake Air Charge Pressure Charge Pressure
TIME Timing TIME Angle Delay Angle Delay Angle Delay Angle Delay TIME Temperature Solenoid Valve (actual Value)
Marker STAMP /min % ms g/s STAMP °KW °KW °KW °KW STAMP /min °C % mbar
2187.79 1600 45.9 2.72 15.58 2188.09 0 0 0 0 2188.38 1720 39 100 1030
2188.7 1720 84.2 4.42 27.86 2188.99 0 0 0 0 2189.29 1720 37 100 1080
2189.6 1760 88 4.42 29.94 2189.9 0 0 0 0 2190.21 1920 36 100 1120
2190.51 2000 91.7 4.76 36.19 2190.81 0 0 0 0 2191.1 2160 34 100 1180
2191.41 2240 99.2 5.1 44.78 2191.71 0 0 0 0 2192.01 2400 33 100 1250
2192.32 2520 105.3 5.44 51.56 2192.62 0 0 0 0 2192.92 2680 33 100 1310
2193.22 2720 106 5.44 55.5 2193.52 0 0 0 0 2193.83 2920 32 100 1340
2194.13 3000 111.3 5.78 63.22 2194.43 0 0 0 0 2194.73 3160 31 100 1410
2195.03 3240 119.5 6.8 75.5 2195.33 0 0 0 0 2195.63 3440 31 100 1500
2195.94 3560 131.6 7.82 92.11 2196.24 0 0 0 0 2196.54 3760 30 100 1720
2196.84 3880 158.6 9.52 122.39 2197.14 0 0 0 0 2197.44 4200 30 100 2040
2197.75 4360 183.5 10.88 159.08 2198.05 0 0 0 0 2198.35 4640 29 100 2170
2198.65 4800 185.7 10.88 171.69 2198.95 0 0 0 0 2199.26 5040 28 100 2140
2199.57 5120 188 10.54 185.72 2199.86 0 0 0 0 2200.16 5320 27 100 2130
2200.46 5400 190.2 11.22 196.86 2200.77 0 0 0 0 2201.07 5640 27 100 2150
2201.37 5720 190.2 11.22 207.42 2201.67 0 0 0 0 2201.97 5840 27 100 2080
2202.27 5920 188 10.54 212.78 2202.58 0 0 0 0 2202.89 6080 27 100 2130
2203.18 6120 185.7 10.54 220.75 2203.49 0 0 0 0 2203.79 6240 27 100 2090
2204.09 6280 184.2 10.54 220.42 2204.4 0 0 0 0 2204.7 6400 27 100 2130
2204.99 6440 182.7 10.54 227.14 2205.29 0 0 0 0 2205.59 6560 27 100 2150
2205.9 6600 182 10.2 230.06 2206.2 0 0 0 0 2206.51 6720 28 100 2120same car
Code:
Saturday 7 August 2010 18:41:45:61786 VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0 Data version: 20100630
06A 906 032 DE 1.8L R4/5VT G01 0001
Group A: '020 Group B: '031 Group C: '118
Cylinder 1 Ignition Cylinder 2 Ignition Cylinder 3 Ignition Cylinder 4 Ignition Lambda Sensor Lambda Sensor Engine Speed Intake Air Charge Pressure Charge Pressure
TIME Angle Delay Angle Delay Angle Delay Angle Delay TIME Current Value Specified Value TIME Temperature Solenoid Valve (actual Value)
Marker STAMP °KW °KW °KW °KW STAMP STAMP /min °C % mbar 22.64 0 0 0 0 22.94 1 1 23.24 1760 39 100 1030
23.54 0 0 0 0 23.85 0.953 1 24.15 1800 36 100 1100
24.45 0 0 0 0 24.75 0.984 1 25.06 2240 35 100 1170
25.36 0 0 0 0 25.66 0.977 0.969 25.96 2680 33 100 1260
26.26 0 0 0 0 26.56 0.93 0.93 26.87 3160 32 100 1300
27.17 0 0 0 0 27.47 0.852 0.828 27.77 3680 31 100 1470
28.07 0 0 0 0 28.37 0.805 0.813 28.68 4280 30 100 1880
28.98 0 0 0 0 29.28 0.836 0.805 29.58 5240 30 93.7 2540
29.88 0.8 0 0.8 3 30.19 0.766 0.805 30.5 6680 27 100 2540
30.79 0.8 0 0.8 3 31.09 0.789 0.805 31.39 7400 27 100 2510
31.69 0.8 0 0.8 3 31.99 0.797 0.805 32.29 7680 29 100 2540
Last edited:
gt3071-compact-48trim, 0.63a/r,T25
polo, t3t04e-57trim,0.62a/r @ ajec before fueling was sorted
Actuator pressure on polo, early log
hope this helps compare phil
Code:
Saturday 31 July 2010 16:18:57:61786 VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0 Data version: 20100630
8N0 906 018 J 1.8L R4/5VT G02 0004
Group A: '002 Group B: '020 Group C: '118
RPM Load Inj. On Time Mass Flow Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization RPM Temperature Load Absolute Pres.
TIME TIME TIME
Marker STAMP /min % ms g/s STAMP °KW °KW °KW °KW STAMP /min °C % mbar
0.31 800 24.1 1.36 3.67 0.6 0 0 0 0 0.01 800 39 0 1000
40.13 1760 57.9 3.4 22.03 40.43 0 0 0 0 39.84 1680 38 0 1000
41.03 1760 78.9 4.08 26.78 41.34 0 0 0 0 40.73 1760 37 94.5 1020
41.94 2000 82.7 4.42 32.58 42.25 0 0 0 0 41.64 1840 36 94.5 1070
42.86 2480 92.5 4.76 46.83 43.15 0 0 0 0 42.56 2320 34 94.5 1140
43.76 2920 106.8 5.1 63.47 44.06 0 0 0 0 43.46 2800 33 94.5 1210
44.67 3400 124.1 6.12 84 44.97 0 0 0 0 44.37 3280 33 94.5 1340
45.57 3920 160.9 7.48 126.81 45.87 0 0 0 0 45.27 3760 33 94.5 1590
46.48 4480 191.7 11.22 180.78 46.78 0 0 0 0 46.17 4280 33 85.5 2090
47.38 5160 191.7 13.6 249.61 47.68 0 3 0 0 47.08 4920 35 83.5 2540
48.29 5640 191.7 13.94 262.28 48.59 0 3 3 0 47.98 5520 37 84.3 2540
49.19 6040 191.7 13.94 275 49.49 0 3 3 0 48.89 5920 39 84.7 2540
50.1 6400 191 13.6 272.08 50.4 0 3 3 0 49.79 6280 42 85.5 2540
51.01 6720 191 13.6 264.58 51.3 0 3 3 0 50.7 6640 46 85.5 2540
51.91 7120 191 13.6 271.78 52.21 0 0 0 0 51.61 7000 49 87.1 2540polo, t3t04e-57trim,0.62a/r @ ajec before fueling was sorted
Code:
Saturday 12 December 2009 13:17:19
06A 906 032 TL 1.8l R4/5VT 01 0040
Group A: '001 Group B: '031 Group C: '118
RPM Temperature Lambda Bin. Bits Lambda Factor Lambda Factor RPM Temperature Load Absolute Pres.
TIME TIME TIME
Marker STAMP /min °C % STAMP STAMP /min °C % mbar
436.64 2080 96 -10.2 11101001 436.94 0.75 1 436.34 2080 27 95.3 1030
437.55 2280 96 0 11100001 437.85 0.75 1 437.25 2120 27 95.3 1100
438.45 2800 96 0 11100001 438.75 0.75 0.953 438.15 2640 27 95.3 1180
439.36 3320 96 0 11100001 439.66 0.75 0.914 439.06 3160 26 95.3 1330
440.26 3920 96 -18.8 11101001 440.56 0.828 0.852 439.96 3680 26 95.3 1670
441.18 4840 96 -9.4 11101001 441.47 0.813 0.836 440.87 4480 27 73.7 2540
442.08 5520 96 -7.8 11101001 442.39 0.789 0.813 441.77 5320 27 40.8 2540
442.98 6040 96 -11.7 11101001 443.28 0.813 0.813 442.69 5880 29 43.9 2540
443.89 6480 96 -16.4 11101001 444.2 0.782 0.813 443.58 6360 30 39.2 2540
444.8 6840 96 -18 11101001 445.1 0.789 0.813 444.49 6760 33 29.8 2540
445.7 7240 96 -21.1 11101001 446.01 0.797 0.813 445.4 7120 35 14.1 2540
446.61 7640 96 -25 11101001 446.9 1.991 0.875 446.31 7520 37 15.3 2540Actuator pressure on polo, early log
Code:
Sunday 15 November 2009 15:23:44
06A 906 032 TL 1.8l R4/5VT 01 0040
Group A: '001 Group B: '031 Group C: '115
RPM Temperature Lambda Bin. Bits Lambda Factor Lambda Factor RPM Load Absolute Pres. Absolute Pres.
TIME TIME TIME
Marker STAMP /min °C % STAMP STAMP /min % mbar mbar
435 2120 89 -13.3 11101001 434.4 0.969 1 434.71 2080 92.5 1480 1110
435.91 2160 89 -14.1 11101001 435.3 0.984 1 435.61 2160 94.7 1590 1140
436.81 2240 89 -14.8 11101001 436.21 0.984 1 436.51 2200 96.2 1620 1170
437.72 2280 89 -13.3 11101001 437.11 1 1 437.42 2280 97.7 1640 1190
438.62 2360 89 -14.1 11101001 438.02 0.992 1 438.32 2360 99.2 1660 1200
439.54 2440 89 -10.9 11101001 438.92 1 1 439.23 2400 100 1690 1210
440.43 2520 89 -12.5 11101001 439.83 0.953 0.969 440.13 2480 101.5 1680 1230
441.34 2600 89 -12.5 11101001 440.73 0.961 0.961 441.05 2560 103 1710 1240
442.24 2680 89 -13.3 11101001 441.64 0.953 0.961 441.94 2640 105.3 1730 1240
443.15 2760 89 -13.3 11101001 442.55 0.953 0.961 442.85 2720 107.5 1750 1260
444.05 2800 90 -13.3 11101001 443.45 0.938 0.953 443.75 2800 109.8 1780 1280
444.96 2880 90 -13.3 11101001 444.36 0.953 0.953 444.66 2880 112 1810 1310
445.86 3000 90 -12.5 11101001 445.26 0.938 0.945 445.56 2960 117.3 1880 1350
446.77 3080 90 -10.9 11101001 446.17 0.938 0.945 446.47 3040 121.8 1860 1410
447.67 3160 90 -11.7 11101001 447.07 0.938 0.93 447.37 3160 127.8 1800 1500
448.58 3280 90 -14.8 11101001 447.98 0.914 0.914 448.28 3240 143.6 1780 1610
449.48 3400 90 -14.8 11101001 448.88 0.914 0.906 449.18 3360 160.2 1720 1770hope this helps compare phil
Last edited:
Thanks Bill. Appreciate that a lot.
Alex gets his about 4000, maybe a bit less.
gt3071,t25,0.86a/r, 2ltr 20v : 4300 ish
gt3071-compact-48trim, 0.63a/r,T25: 4250 ish Tuftys? No wonder hes re-doing is cooler. lol
polo, t3t04e-57trim,0.62a/r : probably about 4000.
And mine: Between 4500-4700.
Now this might be to do with richness on spool, large fmic core and maybe small boost leak.
Are any of them on tubular manifolds like mine? Loggers should spool quicker i would have thought.
Need to check for leaks, adjust the fuelling and raise the boost and see what my logs look like from there.
If i can get it down 300-500rpm id be pretty happy.
Alex gets his about 4000, maybe a bit less.
gt3071,t25,0.86a/r, 2ltr 20v : 4300 ish
gt3071-compact-48trim, 0.63a/r,T25: 4250 ish Tuftys? No wonder hes re-doing is cooler. lol
polo, t3t04e-57trim,0.62a/r : probably about 4000.
And mine: Between 4500-4700.
Now this might be to do with richness on spool, large fmic core and maybe small boost leak.
Are any of them on tubular manifolds like mine? Loggers should spool quicker i would have thought.
Need to check for leaks, adjust the fuelling and raise the boost and see what my logs look like from there.
If i can get it down 300-500rpm id be pretty happy.
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