I think I found a suspension / geometry guru !

[muddyboots]

OK, the other day I was trying to find where I could get a "full" geometry check done on my car. In the past I've had tracking set at various fast-fit places, with the result that the car often felt worse than it started out - so this time I wanted to find someone who knew what they were doing.

Whilst googling round, I came across this site: www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk.
There's a lot of detailed theory on this site, and it seemed apparent that the author Tony "seems to know what he's talking about"

Further googling showed that Tony has done a LOT of work for the Lexus Owner's Club and solved a misalignment/tyre wear problem that had been affecting many owners of IS200/300 cars from new (sound familiar to many Mk4 Ibiza owners??), and has since setup over 200 of these cars with 100% success.
He has also held a "Geo setup day" for the LOC. Knowing how seriously most people on here take their car's setup, whether for road or track, I thought this could be an interesting adventure, a bit different from the usual RR days that know and love.

Anyway, judging by this success I thought SCNers might benefit from Tony's expertise, so I emailed him with some queries, and he said he'd be interested in helping out on SCN. So he's joined us...
First appearance was in this post with a follow-up here.

So there you go, hopefully this will be of use to all, maybe we'll have an inaugural SCN Geo Day soon

 

[muddyboots]

Here's a copy of the email I got back from Tony, after I enquired whether the fitting of Powerflex bushes to the rear of my front wishbones might require any changes to static geometry settings:

The problem you have with the handling under braking is 'Directly' due to the Castor then 'Indirectly the Toe.

Reason
Under braking the wheel reduces momentum but the car still owns inertia, the rear bush absorbs and controls this energy, 'But' since the wishbone has three points of application the braking forces allow the castor to reduce toward positive and permit the toe to move Negative, in summary it handles 'Pants'

Testing Theory
Straight line braking will act on both front wheels and the effect will be un-felt.
Add any steering action or cornering weight transfer under braking then a disparity will be born.

If you read
'About Us' on my site that explains my history, to date I wont work within dealerships, I work for the common man and I address their distress directly (Hence the site)

Answers to your Questions 1
The recommended settings < read that again?.... Global mistake is to rely on those words. Reality is this..... there are no actual settings for any car anywhere only suggestions, parameters go way beyond any 'matter of fact positions', the mistake within the industry is to rely on the recommended settings, when things go wrong the best you get is a 'shoulder shrug'

2
Respect the forces?
Static toe is 0 with a Dynamic flow of 5' per wheel, this position is calculated to respect the following
Rolling resistance = toe now Negative
Drive 'Application = toe now Positive
Inertia 'Relaxed' = toe now 0

So how's it done?
Using the manufactures 'suggested geometry positions' there will be a need to allow for the vehicles modifications (suspension drop/ wheel off-set) and so on. Then I would want the customers needs, Safe tyre wear/ Road race/ Drifting. From this evolves the geometry position. But there is one more thing? and this is the most important one! 'The fine-tune' After 2000 miles. I re-check the geometry and ensure everything has gone to plan, this test and any corrections is 'FREE' the reason for this is, you! are unique, your driving style/ area/ load belongs to you and you only, anyone who thinks that theoretical set-up is final is a fool... I'm not a fool hence the re-check and the £0 cost.

In Summary
On my main page click on the Lexus meet and have a look in the gallery. This meet was headed 'Geometry Health Check Day'. LOC approached me early 05 asking if I could resolve a repetitive front tyre wear problem on the IS200/300/300Sport and SC. So I looked into the geometry set-up and found that Lexus Japan developed incorrect dynamic positions for the Camber and Castor, these I re-wrote and tested..... to-date I have corrected over 200 cars based on these 'new' positions with 100% success. On that note we held a PR event and had some 30 cars at the centre including the only IS200 Drift car.... the day made the papers/mags and so on and seemingly displayed top support from LOC toward me.

I have a problem
Time..... Becoming visible on-line has dealt me an unexpected hand.Try this for a day
6.30 : Up eat, shower, travel
8.00 : Work
18.30: Shower, eat, answer email, hit Forum
23/24.00 bed
Day off 'write set-ups'
Sunday' write set-ups'

I am interested
By invitation I have become part of some clubs LOC and Meg own a share of my limited time and in both I found my self part of the 'knowledge base'. Seat is an interesting frame supporting many modifications, this I feel I would like to explore.

Cost
Within the forums due to volume I charge £0 for set-ups, providing the set-up is not displayed within the forum in full. Email also is £0 through WIM, Training is £500 per day, Consultancy £70 per hour, Third party Direct £100/ £175, Third party email £70 only on absolute resolve.

If you want to link this email into your forum feel free, opinionated information should be shared, if only for dispute.

 

[Neo_VR]

Thats good... altho its just baffled me even more

btw, make sure you hammer in those bushes good... ive lost one

 

[Pabs]

impressive stuff

 

[muddyboots]

It's obvious he knows his stuff, even if it is a little difficult to understand

 

[wheels-inmotion]

It's obvious he knows his stuff, even if it is a little difficult to understand

Leave the 'difficult' bits to me!..... don't worry a collaborated pact can solve all!

 

[ibizacupra]

I am intrigued by what can be offered setup wise for my 2001 ibiza cupra, which is competing in castle combe's saloon c'ship next year.

several suspension setups are in my mind re way to go, what regs will allow etc..

Are you able to assist in this sort of setup and familiar with other vag range components if I was to mix and match some parts?

thanks
bill

 

[wheels-inmotion]

Geometry

Vague question.... massive area to reply?
Geometry as you know is absolute in resolve within all forms of racing.

A real understanding would only reflect the needs of the driver..... 'What are your needs'
The 'Several' set-up's in mind what do they involve!

how's this for pedigree.
25yrs in geometry
wheels-inmotion.co.uk to warn people about alignment.... at £0 cost to the viewer
Set/ recovered untold domestic cars
Set/ Formula Ford/ for the track/ three seasons/data supplied
Written corrective geometry for Lexus IS200/300/sport and SC/UK/World
Set/wrote geometry for Drag/funny car/ UK/ Canada
Allowed training content within WIM in Canada and Malaysia
Oh and i wrote and set the geometry on the lead car for 'Driftworks' UK.. Next year WIM will be displayed on the only IS200 Drift car in the UK in the first televised Drift event.

Matter of fact is....... i work for the common man..... all the above is interesting reading no more! my site/my field is designed to help 'YOU' one to one...

 

[muddyboots]

I think that's a "yes" Bill

 

[wheels-inmotion]

I think that's a "yes" Bill

'Yes' to what?..... is this a 'Geometrical set-up' ?

 

[ibizacupra]

Vague question.... massive area to reply?
Geometry as you know is absolute in resolve within all forms of racing.

A real understanding would only reflect the needs of the driver..... 'What are your needs'
The 'Several' set-up's in mind what do they involve!

how's this for pedigree.
25yrs in geometry
wheels-inmotion.co.uk to warn people about alignment.... at £0 cost to the viewer
Set/ recovered untold domestic cars
Set/ Formula Ford/ for the track/ three seasons/data supplied
Written corrective geometry for Lexus IS200/300/sport and SC/UK/World
Set/wrote geometry for Drag/funny car/ UK/ Canada
Allowed training content within WIM in Canada and Malaysia
Oh and i wrote and set the geometry on the lead car for 'Driftworks' UK.. Next year WIM will be displayed on the only IS200 Drift car in the UK in the first televised Drift event.

Matter of fact is....... i work for the common man..... all the above is interesting reading no more! my site/my field is designed to help 'YOU' one to one...

Vague question yea.. but specifically VAG PARTS and their mix and match effect on geo.

thinking different wheel hub, different wishbone, different strut top mount, hence different camber, caster and increased track width, wider wheels & tyres... all a right mix of parts, possibly getting the car to have improved turn in and stability under power (410bhp and front wheel drive with atb diff) and braking.
My basic rule of thumb being the VW Motorsport spec geo in tarmac trim on their Mk3 Golf kit cars and GrpA rally cars.

 

[m0rk]

You're running a lot lower than the tarmac cars though bill.

 

[ibizacupra]

You're running a lot lower than the tarmac cars though bill.

at the mo I am yea.. mind you they run pretty low in that spec I thought.
got minimum 75mm ride height regs to achieve. which I think I am very close to now. 17" wheels will make it taller slightly. only exhaust is allowed to be lower.

will have to check it properly.

suspension is wide open to mods at the moment. got some different spring rates on order to swapsie and see. The balance is pretty nice currently so I dont want to **** it up, just improve turn in, corner traction and ride the bumps @ combe as well as I can.

 

[m0rk]

what was it the Carvell Brothers said once - make the front as grippy as you can / want - then take it away at the back. - I assume so you can adjust mid corner rather than only be fast if on the right line?

I guess lots more camber as the car will pitch more as you'll be going quicker - but then you will have straight line grip issues because of the narrower contact patch.

I had a book all about this - very very interesting reading - but have lent it out about 3yrs ago

 

[ibizacupra]

what was it the Carvell Brothers said once - make the front as grippy as you can / want - then take it away at the back. - I assume so you can adjust mid corner rather than only be fast if on the right line?

I guess lots more camber as the car will pitch more as you'll be going quicker - but then you will have straight line grip issues because of the narrower contact patch.

I had a book all about this - very very interesting reading - but have lent it out about 3yrs ago

I remember the carvell's setup was their own... in that it was'nt what most other people ran. Very stiff front, soft rear where stock hatch golfs had very stiff rear, softer front. It certainly worked for them and their preferred handling style.

 

[wheels-inmotion]

Vague question yea.. but specifically VAG PARTS and their mix and match effect on geo.

thinking different wheel hub, different wishbone, different strut top mount, hence different camber, caster and increased track width, wider wheels & tyres... all a right mix of parts, possibly getting the car to have improved turn in and stability under power (410bhp and front wheel drive with atb diff) and braking.
My basic rule of thumb being the VW Motorsport spec geo in tarmac trim on their Mk3 Golf kit cars and GrpA rally cars.

As well and impressive the modifications read...... to what end!
I'm sure my presence here is about to be cut short/down, but, theoretical geometrical positions are developed as i am sure you know!....

Matter of fact development has no actual direct input from the likes of myself.... development of suspension/ coil rates/ sway bars/ rack ratio belongs to you!..... the end result is the driver requesting geometry...... assuming the car is race wise (adjustable) then a unique position can be born, by request!

By invitation i joined this club.... never did i think in a matter of minutes my area would include race/set-up...... i work for the common man and i am proud of that.

Assuming i don't get 'black balled' then i would like to expand and make myself available to help in that area.. free!

Regarding any forms of race set-up...... i assume this would be held in private.

On that note... just for curiosity.. that 'turn in'.... most use Toe... i use TOOT..!

 

[muddyboots]

Assuming i don't get 'black balled' then i would like to expand and make myself available to help in that area.. free!

I don't think you are going to get "black balled", quite the opposite, unless I've missed something

Most of the guys (& girls) on here run road cars, some do trackdays, then you have one or two serious competitors like Bill above ("ibizacupra"). You've already got the two highest Cupranet posters interested in this thread (look at Bill and m0rk's post counts )

 

[wheels-inmotion]

reasurring words

I don't think you are going to get "black balled", quite the opposite, unless I've missed something

Most of the guys (& girls) on here run road cars, some do trackdays, then you have one or two serious competitors like Bill above ("ibizacupra"). You've already got the two highest Cupranet posters interested in this thread (look at Bill and m0rk's post counts )

Reasurring words indeed!..... you must understand me the 'newbie' here knows 'no one' the names displayed above.... with due-respect mean nothing to me!

The posibillity to read as **** sure/ over comfident/ absolut in reply is very posible, we don't, think or talk in person in the same format as we type!

I am a very humble fella, working in an area that (kills) or hurts un-told people world wide.... WIM, opened a door that has made the 'fast fit' industry cringe... that's good.

As i explained before.. geometry in all formats is open to debate, Race set-up is open only to the driver and if this derives corporate gaine then it will not be subject to display... rightly so!

So in this 'passive' submissive format...!

'Wheel Alignment'...... why do you have it!........ and fundermentaly 'What?' is the alignment to......?

 

[ibizacupra]

As well and impressive the modifications read...... to what end!
I'm sure my presence here is about to be cut short/down, but, theoretical geometrical positions are developed as i am sure you know!....

Matter of fact development has no actual direct input from the likes of myself.... development of suspension/ coil rates/ sway bars/ rack ratio belongs to you!..... the end result is the driver requesting geometry...... assuming the car is race wise (adjustable) then a unique position can be born, by request!

By invitation i joined this club.... never did i think in a matter of minutes my area would include race/set-up...... i work for the common man and i am proud of that.

Assuming i don't get 'black balled' then i would like to expand and make myself available to help in that area.. free!

Regarding any forms of race set-up...... i assume this would be held in private.

On that note... just for curiosity.. that 'turn in'.... most use Toe... i use TOOT..!

No hostility my friend.
you do wax lyrical

Using RobT's ibiza as an example of what is being considered by myself. see thread http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67484&page=3 this is the sort of thing from the mix and match point of view.

VAG parts used from various models to combine into making the ibiza front end wider with more beneficial geometry for competition use.

ibiza is a mongrel of a car being part golf mk2/3 & part polo, and has relatively narrow track and some less than ideal suspension arm angles when you drop it down etc... roll centres go to hell etc

I am running to a set of regs which limit my ability to swap to the extent of Rob (I believe) but improving turn in from better ball joint position, lower, flatter wishbones and additional caster is all on my list of mods to do. Only time on track will confirm this or not. I will be running radial road tyres (by regs to list 1a) but rob can run slicks which can be crossplys.

 

[wheels-inmotion]

No hostility my friend.
you do wax lyrical

Using RobT's ibiza as an example of what is being considered by myself. see thread http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67484&page=3 this is the sort of thing from the mix and match point of view.

VAG parts used from various models to combine into making the ibiza front end wider with more beneficial geometry for competition use.

ibiza is a mongrel of a car being part golf mk2/3 & part polo, and has relatively narrow track and some less than ideal suspension arm angles when you drop it down etc... roll centres go to hell etc

I am running to a set of regs which limit my ability to swap to the extent of Rob (I believe) but improving turn in from better ball joint position, lower, flatter wishbones and additional caster is all on my list of mods to do. Only time on track will confirm this or not. I will be running radial road tyres (by regs to list 1a) but rob can run slicks which can be crossplys.

That waxing of the 'lyrical' is deliberate...geometry is a boring read for most.... voice a picture then things become more palatable.

From that link i read Mr 'S' may bring you a Digital Geometry Gauge, from that i assume some..... setting-up will be explored... i would love to be part of the conversation but i need to know 'How adjustable' have you made the car? with any set-up 'direct' adjustment needs little maths...... in-direct takes... an age...
On that note... often even within racing still the importance of CASTOR/KPI/ TOOT is miss understood....... this area is 'very relevant' to you and the cars wider track and flat wishbones....i feel?