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Hybrid K04 Turbo Discussion
- Thread starter J@mes
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- discussion hybrid k04 turbo
Hi Guys, I'm interested in one of these too. After being impressed with yer mums results i contacted jacob the next day and have exchanged several emails since. He has done group buys in the past and so this should be possible. I personally would not wish to run this turbo past 1.55 bar, Your still going to get good gains at this boost. With regards mapping i wouldn't get too hung up on it. Its still reasonably a stage two set up. Adjustments to pressure reg, maff and the use of Vtune/leminwinks etc should do the trick. That said a group buy price on custom software would be considered but a full remap price is out of my range considering we've all invested several hundreds in our respective programs. The JBS mani is interesting, but my experience with JBS has been alot of talk and not many results.
Bill can you explain in laymans terms why high boost levels for your engine may be bad even if the turbo has been built to withstand high levels ie 2 bar. Is it excessive pressures affecting the compression stroke or similar.
Watching with interest
Bill can you explain in laymans terms why high boost levels for your engine may be bad even if the turbo has been built to withstand high levels ie 2 bar. Is it excessive pressures affecting the compression stroke or similar.
Watching with interest
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Update
Guys i got a reply from Jacob this morning reference pricing and the news is not as good as i thought
The pricing even after a group order is still high and we will need to pay for import tax at this side along with individual shipping.
Here is Jacob's reply.....
'' I’ve got some information for you about the possibility of a groupbuy.
To start with, there are two different versions of the K04 turbo that is used on your engine. They are the same turbo except for one thing, a difference in the turbine housing. The K04-23 (which I assume is what you all are using because that is what YerMother had on his car) uses what KKK calls a T3 sensor in the turbine housing. Basically this means that the K04-23 turbine housing has a threaded hole in the side of the housing for this sensor to screw into. Other than that, the turbochargers are the same.
Now, the reason that I am telling you this is because as I don’t have any stock of K04-23’s for the hybrids, I checked with KKK both in the US and Germany and they are 12-14 weeks out on delivery for them. I do, however, have in stock K04-20’s which are the same as the K04-23 except for they do not have the hole in the turbine housing for the T3 sensor. I can modify the turbine housings on the K04-20’s to fit the sensor if that is something you guys are interested in.
If the modification of the turbine housings is something that may work, here is what pricing would be. The turbocharger would be the K04-23 hybrid and include the port/polishing and ceramic coating of the turbocharger. Retail for the turbocharger is $1775. Pricing for 2-5 units would be $1600 and if we were to get 6 units the price would be $1500. I am going to cap the groupbuy at 6 members due to the stock of turbochargers I currently have. It is possible for me to do more than 6 hybrids, but due to the increases in pricing from KKK over the past 6 months I could not offer the previously mentioned pricing. After this groupbuy the retail pricing on the hybrids is going to be rising around 10% just so I can keep up with KKK’s increase in pricing.
Shipping would be provided using USPS at a cost of $85/unit. I would rather ship individually to each person instead of trying to organize a single shipment of all the turbochargers. Now, here is the bad part of the deal. I have already been warned by USPS about shipping to the UK and marking turbochargers as commercial samples or of a lower value than actual. I have done that on probably half a dozen orders already this year. You probably know better than I, but I am estimating that importing tax is going to be around $250 for the turbocharger.
Here is some more information about the hybrid itself:
For this hybrid we start with an OEM KKK K04-023 turbocharger and modify both the compressor and turbine side. On the turbine side we clearance the exhaust housings which is used to compensate for the increase in flow through the turbocharger. Without this when upgrading the compressor side we tend to see an issue where there is too much air trying to flow through the stock turbine housing. Clearancing allows us to increase the flow of the turbocharger without drastically increasing the lag time.
On the compressor side we use a larger KKK compressor wheel that allows us to flow more air/boost at a higher efficiency than the stock K04 compressor wheel. The larger wheel has quite a few advantages over the stock wheel. First is its ability to run at a higher boost level and do so safely. We are able to run upwards of 2bar while still staying in healthy shaft speed ranges and efficiency ranges. Another advantage is its ability to sustain flow through to redline. When in chipped or modified form, the stock turbo has a tendency to run out of breath before it reaches redline, with the new compressor wheels ability to flow more, we can eliminate that problem. The final advantage of the new compressor wheel is it’s ability to run at a lower shaft speed than the stock wheel. Running at a lower shaft speed is going to reduce heat within the turbocharger, extend the life of the turbocharger, as well as put the rpm’s back in the range that the turbine wheel was designed to run in.
For the build of the turbocharger, we balance the wheels individually as well as together in a rotating assembly to beyond factory tolerances. The turbocharger is then blueprinted during the build to ensure that all of the parts, though new from the factory, are within factory specifications.
Does your forum have some sort of groupbuy forum that you usually run the groupbuys through? Payment wise it would be an initial deposit (usually 50%) and once the turbochargers are ready to ship them the remainder of the payment would be due. Build time would be 1-2 weeks for the turbochargers once we have finalized how many/who are in.
Hopefully that gives you enough information to see if there is enough interest out there to do this groupbuy. Let me know if you have any other concerns or questions you’d like me to answer''
Guys i got a reply from Jacob this morning reference pricing and the news is not as good as i thought
The pricing even after a group order is still high and we will need to pay for import tax at this side along with individual shipping.Here is Jacob's reply.....
'' I’ve got some information for you about the possibility of a groupbuy.
To start with, there are two different versions of the K04 turbo that is used on your engine. They are the same turbo except for one thing, a difference in the turbine housing. The K04-23 (which I assume is what you all are using because that is what YerMother had on his car) uses what KKK calls a T3 sensor in the turbine housing. Basically this means that the K04-23 turbine housing has a threaded hole in the side of the housing for this sensor to screw into. Other than that, the turbochargers are the same.
Now, the reason that I am telling you this is because as I don’t have any stock of K04-23’s for the hybrids, I checked with KKK both in the US and Germany and they are 12-14 weeks out on delivery for them. I do, however, have in stock K04-20’s which are the same as the K04-23 except for they do not have the hole in the turbine housing for the T3 sensor. I can modify the turbine housings on the K04-20’s to fit the sensor if that is something you guys are interested in.
If the modification of the turbine housings is something that may work, here is what pricing would be. The turbocharger would be the K04-23 hybrid and include the port/polishing and ceramic coating of the turbocharger. Retail for the turbocharger is $1775. Pricing for 2-5 units would be $1600 and if we were to get 6 units the price would be $1500. I am going to cap the groupbuy at 6 members due to the stock of turbochargers I currently have. It is possible for me to do more than 6 hybrids, but due to the increases in pricing from KKK over the past 6 months I could not offer the previously mentioned pricing. After this groupbuy the retail pricing on the hybrids is going to be rising around 10% just so I can keep up with KKK’s increase in pricing.
Shipping would be provided using USPS at a cost of $85/unit. I would rather ship individually to each person instead of trying to organize a single shipment of all the turbochargers. Now, here is the bad part of the deal. I have already been warned by USPS about shipping to the UK and marking turbochargers as commercial samples or of a lower value than actual. I have done that on probably half a dozen orders already this year. You probably know better than I, but I am estimating that importing tax is going to be around $250 for the turbocharger.
Here is some more information about the hybrid itself:
For this hybrid we start with an OEM KKK K04-023 turbocharger and modify both the compressor and turbine side. On the turbine side we clearance the exhaust housings which is used to compensate for the increase in flow through the turbocharger. Without this when upgrading the compressor side we tend to see an issue where there is too much air trying to flow through the stock turbine housing. Clearancing allows us to increase the flow of the turbocharger without drastically increasing the lag time.
On the compressor side we use a larger KKK compressor wheel that allows us to flow more air/boost at a higher efficiency than the stock K04 compressor wheel. The larger wheel has quite a few advantages over the stock wheel. First is its ability to run at a higher boost level and do so safely. We are able to run upwards of 2bar while still staying in healthy shaft speed ranges and efficiency ranges. Another advantage is its ability to sustain flow through to redline. When in chipped or modified form, the stock turbo has a tendency to run out of breath before it reaches redline, with the new compressor wheels ability to flow more, we can eliminate that problem. The final advantage of the new compressor wheel is it’s ability to run at a lower shaft speed than the stock wheel. Running at a lower shaft speed is going to reduce heat within the turbocharger, extend the life of the turbocharger, as well as put the rpm’s back in the range that the turbine wheel was designed to run in.
For the build of the turbocharger, we balance the wheels individually as well as together in a rotating assembly to beyond factory tolerances. The turbocharger is then blueprinted during the build to ensure that all of the parts, though new from the factory, are within factory specifications.
Does your forum have some sort of groupbuy forum that you usually run the groupbuys through? Payment wise it would be an initial deposit (usually 50%) and once the turbochargers are ready to ship them the remainder of the payment would be due. Build time would be 1-2 weeks for the turbochargers once we have finalized how many/who are in.
Hopefully that gives you enough information to see if there is enough interest out there to do this groupbuy. Let me know if you have any other concerns or questions you’d like me to answer''
So in summary $1685 = £900
Plus Vat on top when it gets into this country
£850ish x 1.175 = £1000 approx
Then FPR/MAF on top = £1100ish, then mapping? (A tweak £50-100? or a full remap £500?)
Then scotty is on about a manifold, JBS are not cheap and 1st thoughts probably about £500 at the very least seeing as they have priced the IHI at £1000ish
You could be speaking £2000-£2500 all in.
But as he said in his email, this offer is only open to a maximum of 6 people and the prices will go up after that
So if this still interests you let me know and then we can ask permission from mork to go ahead with this, if not then ill email jacob and say we are all tight arses here in the UK and to forget the whole thing
I wonder if its actually the K04 that is setting the high price? There is an idea of us sourcing our own K04 and sending it to him for modification? Might be more hassle than what its worth though?
Plus Vat on top when it gets into this country
£850ish x 1.175 = £1000 approx
Then FPR/MAF on top = £1100ish, then mapping? (A tweak £50-100? or a full remap £500?)
Then scotty is on about a manifold, JBS are not cheap and 1st thoughts probably about £500 at the very least seeing as they have priced the IHI at £1000ish
You could be speaking £2000-£2500 all in.
But as he said in his email, this offer is only open to a maximum of 6 people and the prices will go up after that
So if this still interests you let me know and then we can ask permission from mork to go ahead with this, if not then ill email jacob and say we are all tight arses here in the UK and to forget the whole thing
I wonder if its actually the K04 that is setting the high price? There is an idea of us sourcing our own K04 and sending it to him for modification? Might be more hassle than what its worth though?
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Fantastic opportunity, but in the words of the "Dragons Den" - Im Out - too rich for me im afraid.
Now i have been doing some hunting around and found this....
http://66.218.71.231/language/trans...ext=http://www.ls-cartec.de/turboladerkkk.htm
I believe the bottom turbo priced 995 euros is exactly the same as what jacob offers??
This would work out at around £675 before delivery/tax and again a group buy price might bring it down a little.
Its a shame i cant speak/translate german though and find out the spec of the turbo. It says 290 max achievement from a G60 but doesnt quote 1.8t? Is this figure alone before you take into account other mods or is it wheel hp figures or is it indeed just overall flywheel figure? Who knows?
http://66.218.71.231/language/trans...ext=http://www.ls-cartec.de/turboladerkkk.htm
I believe the bottom turbo priced 995 euros is exactly the same as what jacob offers??
This would work out at around £675 before delivery/tax and again a group buy price might bring it down a little.
Its a shame i cant speak/translate german though and find out the spec of the turbo. It says 290 max achievement from a G60 but doesnt quote 1.8t? Is this figure alone before you take into account other mods or is it wheel hp figures or is it indeed just overall flywheel figure? Who knows?
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Even better they have it on special offer....
http://66.218.71.231/language/trans..._en&text=http://www.ls-cartec.de/angebote.htm
Now who can speak/translate any german and enquire about this??
Maybe a private message to zebu? (The german CTR racing guy that comes on here now and again)and he can help us out on translation and speak to this company?
If this is the same turbo then i would be more than happy at this price!
http://66.218.71.231/language/trans..._en&text=http://www.ls-cartec.de/angebote.htm
Now who can speak/translate any german and enquire about this??
Maybe a private message to zebu? (The german CTR racing guy that comes on here now and again)and he can help us out on translation and speak to this company?
If this is the same turbo then i would be more than happy at this price!
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scott... again interested but this will mean things are starting to get expensive!
im hoping to have the new turbo fitted and my map adjusted to suit for about £1k!
scott... again interested but this will mean things are starting to get expensive!
im hoping to have the new turbo fitted and my map adjusted to suit for about £1k!
Please tell then james? Ive pm'd you my address.
Exactly how much did you think the turbo would be/how much discount did you think you'd get?Compared to other upgrades, it's still a cheap option. Also, you asked Jacob to quote for ceramic coating which I think would increase the cost quite a bit.
The L&S Cartec K04R turbo is definitely not the same as the Buehn Engineering one. From memory (I looked at these as well) the K04R is not a hybrid, just a polished/ported/worked on one. I don't think they touch the hot side of the K04R, just the cold side.
Search for "Cartec" you'll find someone fitted one to an Ibiza, which was then sold to Casper, who I think now runs a larger GT series.
Edit: Looking at the page you've posted, they quote 280 bhp on a G60 with k04-23, and 290 with a k04R...
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Well seeing as Sie got his delivered for about £950 i would have thought a group buy would have yielded a cheaper price
In fact its around £50 more than what he paid
It looks as if though he has put his prices up since that as he advertises the turbo on his site with the 2 options at $1575.
I was thinking more in the region of around £750-£800 would have been a decent price.
Who knows i might still be up for it, its just a bit more than what i wanted to pay
Can't remember exactly, sorry. I know the guy there speaks reasonable english though.
Edit: Compressor = cold side.
TurboDynamics do an uprated K04, but when I looked it seemed a lot of money (£1200 to £1500 IIRC) for not much gain, I've got a spec sheet somewhere.
Edit: Compressor = cold side.
TurboDynamics do an uprated K04, but when I looked it seemed a lot of money (£1200 to £1500 IIRC) for not much gain, I've got a spec sheet somewhere.
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Well seeing as Sie got his delivered for about £950 i would have thought a group buy would have yielded a cheaper price
In fact its around £50 more than what he paid
It looks as if though he has put his prices up since that as he advertises the turbo on his site with the 2 options at $1575.
I was thinking more in the region of around £750-£800 would have been a decent price.
Who knows i might still be up for it, its just a bit more than what i wanted to pay
Not sure (& Sie's in Belguim), I would imagine exchange rates and whether or not you pay import duty would make a big difference. Also, it depends greatly on how much Jacob pays for the base K04 to start with.
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