Battery drain issue on 1.4SC Ibiza

[dm222]

Some thoughts:

Not sure about yours, but early Ibizas 6J, like mine (2008), the steering angle sensor is only used for the ESP, I think later on they removed the steering sensor G250 from the rack using only the steering angle sensor G85 for both ESP and PAS. Not sure when that happen, I thought by 2009 they were already only using the G85.

They have both G250 on the steering rack used by the steering pump and G85 on the steering column for the ABS. To find out wich one is your steering pump using: steering assist (44) -> measure blocks -> 004 says G250 "yes" or "no".

Curious how they reached that conclusion, I have no idea wich control unit commands that sensor, by reading the manual it doesn't seem to have a specific fuse but the power has to come from somewhere.


Edit:
http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_259.pdf

page 17

Edit 2:
Fuse 4 on my manual

Conclusion, I don't think that sensor has nothing to do with the BCM

 

[RUM4MO]

I don't think that in all cases, it is a BCM S/W issue, it is okay if you think that this sensor has nothing to do with the BCM, what I am really worried about, without looking through wiring schematics is, does that sensor have a permanent 12 volt supply connected to it as it would need that if it was draining the battery after the BCM had shut down all unnecessary power supplies.

I mean any problem with the Steering Angle Sensor that still allowed it to perform okay, but leak to chassis some 12 volts would be a drain while the system was powered up - but not when not powered up?

Edit:- Hum, I'll need to check the paperwork I get on Thursday when the part should have arrived and been fitted, also I'll check the steering assist module to see if G250 is "yes" or "no".

It is not too good when you think that the dealer is just wasting your money, although, the service reception should record what the customer has requested and is reporting on any fault for passing on to the tech.

 

[dm222]

My point was that if the problem is really coming from there, I think a BCM update wont do anything.

Regarding the drain and still working, I really don't know if that is possible, sorry I would guess that's possible.

 

[RUM4MO]

My point was that if the problem is really coming from there, I think a BCM update wont do anything.

Regarding the drain and still working, I really don't know if that is possible, sorry I would guess that's possible.

I've edited my previous posting. I'd think that as the system self diagnosis it would log a fault if there was a 12 volt leakage to chassis, but steering works 100% and no faults were being logged the day that I handed the car in.

As I have printed off a copy of the VCDS scan I carried out before handing the car in, if I find that the BCM S/W has been changed - then good, but the issue with the Steering Angle Sender might take some explaining? Trouble is, if a steering angle sender is fitted to that car, then I will not be able to check it to see if it has been replaced as it is under the steering wheel.

 

[dm222]

vcds doesn't show the BCM version I think, only shows the part number.
Just to clarify, I was meaning is there are cars with:

version 1 - both G85 (steering angle sensor bewind the steering wheel) and G250 (steering rack), those cars don't use the G85 for the PAS so even if it has a problem you won't notice driving because the G85 is only used for the ESP.
version 2 - only G85 that is used for both PAS and ESP
version 3 - only G250 (cars without ESP)

Mine is version 1.

To check if the G85 is working as it should you have to acess the ABS module and then go to the measure blocks, there is a value there for the steering angle sensor (it says G85 so it's easy to identify).



I'm curious how did they found that, didn't you did something like this before without finding the problem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF1gijj03_0


What I think is that it could be that, but also could be something else. Hope they are sure before starting changing parts.
At least here in Portugal they change parts by guess and the client pays :S

 

[RUM4MO]

Yes I checked the battery drain and in doing that I confirmed that the BCM was shutting down the power supplies leaving a sleep drain of 4.7milli amps, but that was a spot check, what was happening any of the time during the following 5>8>20 days I could not log.

What the SEAT dealer found to be the only item causing a roughly 100milli amp drain when sleeping was the "cancelling ring with slip ring and steering sensor for models with fog lamps" - ie P/N 6q0 959 654 D and that part fits under the steering wheel.

Unfortunately only time will prove if this work has solved my battery draining - and I will report back in a month's time as I intend to leave the car unused over that time while periodically logging the battery voltage via a lead I've fitted across the battery - obviously if I find the battery dropping in voltage before that month has passed, I will unlock and try to start the car and return to dealer!

Edit:- I think that the SEAT dealer's approach to a car with a reported battery drain will be very structured, probably check that there is a high drain being logged over time, then disconnect the power supplies to the two power distribution fuse boxes, if drain has stopped, reconnect these two power leads one at a time and then narrow it down to an actual power user.

 

[dm222]

Good luck

That is part of the airbag? or the steering angle sensor, or does this part does both?


by the way the TRW parts fitted on this car are crap I have problems with mine it makes a noise while driving, at first It looked like it came from the instrument cluster but months ago i found it's from that part, didn't replace it because I have to remove the steering wheel... I see yours has one pin on each side of the connector to secure it but mine doesn't, guess they solved that as people started to complain. Also have a rubbing noise on the airbag wich also is TRW. that's why it's not a good idea to buy a car who entered recently in the market.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxYzvy02MhM

 

[RUM4MO]

I think that from that description that I just quoted from the parts listing, that part is the contact for the airbag + steering input sensor for the ESP(if fitted but not on my 1.4) + the steering input sensor for the front fog lights - that switches them on at low speeds to supply extra lighting (static cornering lighting).

I would never has guessed that that part would have been powered up during sleep periods, but the service reception person said that if that part was behaving in an unusual manner, ie giving out a typical changing "steering input" signal, that would stop going to sleep or wake up the systems as it send signals down the CAN bus lines, so that in effect could cause a usage of battery power.

All I can do now is just wait and do not use that car for maybe a month or so, I have fitted a long fused test lead across the battery so that I can check the battery voltage without wakening up the car's power systems - well that is the plan, maybe log a battery voltage level every day or so, in doing that I can stop this test and try to start the car earlier than planned and if it has again discharged the battery, get back to the garage for them to dig deeper.

 

[dm222]

according to this that sensor is initialized once you turn tbe steering 1.5cm, maybe something was bad causing it to activate all the time...

page 18
http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_204.pdf

 

[RUM4MO]

Yes, though I'm still not convinced that the air bag circuit or the steering input sensor will be live after the BCM knows that the car has been stopped and the ignition switched off and all doors closed. It remains difficult for me to see any situation that would waken up the controllers by some activity other than opening a door and or switching the ignition on?

I can see that a system fault might get logged if illogical activity was noticed at ignition on, but not before that. One thing to bare in mind though, I seem to remember replacing both heated mirrors on my old Passat and the ignition would have been off - but it did log O/C faults for both mirrors after I had disconnected and reconnected them! Prior to that these burned out mirror heaters had not been logging any faults as there was still a conducting (carbonised pcb) path on them.

 

[dm222]

I thought cars without ESP didn't had it but it makes sense, it's neessary for the cornering lights

 

[RUM4MO]

Not an update, just a comment:- that part that was reported to be faulty on my Ibiza, is very easy to find and buy on ebay - and at £89 I think posted in UK for a genuine new, but maybe old stock item, from one of the usual VAG genuine parts etraders - remember I paid £129 + VAT for my new one from SEAT - which will be the recommended retail price, ie almost £155! So maybe there are quite a few failures out there - or is this just unwanted old stock due to lack of failures?

 

[IbizaNI]

RUM4MO any update on the battery?
Mine didn't start yesterday (Sunday) after not driving it since Thursday (2 full days), 1st time since the battery got changed in December 2015.

 

[RUM4MO]

Hi IbizaNI, no no update yet, I'm trying to stick with what I've set out to do which was to leave the car for a month, though tomorrow night will be 28 days so I might try to start it then.

I have a remote lead connected across the battery and the car remains locked up at the side of my driveway, I am logging the battery voltage every day I am at home, currently - well as of last night, it is 12.30V. Remember, my battery is only maybe 6 months old so hopefully at that voltage it will still start the car - time will tell.
I've forgotten, have you ever tried to get the BCM S/W checked and updated by SEAT?

 

[IbizaNI]

Hi IbizaNI, no no update yet, I'm trying to stick with what I've set out to do which was to leave the car for a month, though tomorrow night will be 28 days so I might try to start it then.

I have a remote lead connected across the battery and the car remains locked up at the side of my driveway, I am logging the battery voltage every day I am at home, currently - well as of last night, it is 12.30V. Remember, my battery is only maybe 6 months old so hopefully at that voltage it will still start the car - time will tell.
I've forgotten, have you ever tried to get the BCM S/W checked and updated by SEAT?

No I haven't as before I got the new battery the guy who sorted it out for me said that there was zero drain on the battery before he fitted it, so I assumed the car had the software update before I bought it.

One possible thing that might be draining my battery, might be because for my insurance this year I've opted for a telematics box and even though the engineer that fitted it assured me that it drains very little battery and wouldn't be likely to drain the battery, I suspect this may over time be draining it.

Last night I decided to order an AA Solar Car Battery Charger, it plugs into the OBD-II socket which I think is always live so hopefully it'll keep the car on a trickle charge, it arrives on Friday (supposedly) so I'll report back when I've had a few days use of it.

 

[RUM4MO]

Well, I've now left the Ibiza locked up and not used for 28 days, took a final battery reading today - 12.29V, unlocked the car using its central locking system, switched ignition on, battery now 11.99V, then started the engine with no problems or indication of the battery being a bit flat! Left it running for about 5 minutes, switched it off and connected up a battery charger to bring the battery back up fully.

So, it looks like what the dealer did has sorted it out, now how long I could leave it before it would have failed to start I can't say, but for me, right now, that is good enough!

 

[dm222]

28 days is a good mark, the maximum I left mine was 18 days once and it started weel. I've noticed If I left mine one or two days without using I only get 12,4/12,3V :S

 

[RUM4MO]

28 days is a good mark, the maximum I left mine was 18 days once and it started weel. I've noticed If I left mine one or two days without using I only get 12,4/12,3V :S

I originally aimed to leave it for one month, so as I started this test on 01/06/16 I aimed to stop it on 01/07/16, but I was getting worried that the battery voltage might be too low by then, though looking through my logged voltage measurements, I'm reckoning that it would have only dropped another 0.01V - but either way I stopped the test after 4 weeks. The way that I was monitoring my battery - ie remotely while the car remained locked, meant that I was not "wakening up" any sleeping systems. When you say that your car battery voltage drops to 12.4/12.3V after two days, is that the voltage you get after unlocking the car and opening the door, ie after wakening up some sleeping systems?

A lot of this will depend on the current health of the car battery, one thing, I think, that happens to lead-acid batteries is that the internal resistance increases with age, so while my 6 month old battery was good to start that car when its measured terminal voltage was down to 11.9V, I'd reckon with an older battery that measured voltage would not be enough to allow for a "normal" engine start.

 

[RUM4MO]

No I haven't as before I got the new battery the guy who sorted it out for me said that there was zero drain on the battery before he fitted it, so I assumed the car had the software update before I bought it.

One possible thing that might be draining my battery, might be because for my insurance this year I've opted for a telematics box and even though the engineer that fitted it assured me that it drains very little battery and wouldn't be likely to drain the battery, I suspect this may over time be draining it.

Last night I decided to order an AA Solar Car Battery Charger, it plugs into the OBD-II socket which I think is always live so hopefully it'll keep the car on a trickle charge, it arrives on Friday (supposedly) so I'll report back when I've had a few days use of it.

The way I understand these things is, a properly designed "monitor box" will go to sleep as soon as the car is stopped and locked, maybe even before that if no changes in V/S/G are detected, so it should be only using either its own built in battery/capacitor stored charge or a couple of milli amps. I could speculate that cheap skate/dumb insurance companies might get sold on some cheap badly designed "monitor boxes" though - as it would not be their problem!

As usual, it is a pity that you can not be clear in your mind if adding this box has changed/caused this issue, bother, bother!!

 

[IbizaNI]

The way I understand these things is, a properly designed "monitor box" will go to sleep as soon as the car is stopped and locked, maybe even before that if no changes in V/S/G are detected, so it should be only using either its own built in battery/capacitor stored charge or a couple of milli amps. I could speculate that cheap skate/dumb insurance companies might get sold on some cheap badly designed "monitor boxes" though - as it would not be their problem!

As usual, it is a pity that you can not be clear in your mind if adding this box has changed/caused this issue, bother, bother!!

I'm with Admiral which I'd say is a relatively large company so I would like to think they don't scrimp on these things!

The solar charger arrived today, have it plugged in and will check after 3 days or so and see if it's done it's job. Am I correct in believing that the OBDII is always live with power as this is the main reason I bought this device as other cheaper ones plug into the 12V interior power socket which I know in the Ibiza isn't live when the ignition is off.