2.0TSi (190) - Lumpy Running and Poor MPG

[Phil th Barrow]

Infrastructure and forward thinking can be a problem. But th bean counters know that over supply can be a costly investment. Great for th buyer though. Wheel see.... I heard that we are going to be making batteries in th north east soon which will be great news for th consumer and th country. Its a shame we carnt have a car manufacture here again. We are to far behind for investment to catch up. So i think its a no. Its annoying when... Lets say th new Vauxhall Mocka is 10 grand dearer than its exactly th same petrol version. I suppose they av got to get through there engines lined up and (R&D) payed for.

Iv driven a Kuga petrol/EV and it was very adequate. In spring ill be having a go of a IPace too. According to th blurb they are very good.

I took th car in to Seat Fri just gone. Covid restrictions so not a lot of contact to discuss properly. As iv said in previous text i got it to perform correctly with th closed throttle 4000 RPM down hill descents. Report was no faults but a soft ware update. I now can see oil temp and numerous other things on th digi dash. I don't no whether that was possible before but all interesting stuff. We took it for a drive Saturday so th wife could get used to it as after her retirement she will sell her Black Ibiza Toca and just use mine when its free. Can i advertise her car on here?. Its done 33,000 miles and in great condition.

 

[Quartermaster]

Based on what I’ve read over on uk-polos.net forum, it sounds like your car has been doing a forced / active regeneration. Some owners of the current GPF equipped Polo GTI have experienced similar symptoms - especially those owners whose motoring is mainly short journeys. They’ve experienced some or all of the following;

- change in exhaust note
- Sluggish / hesitant engine performance
- increased fuel consumption
- burning smell
- cooling fan running

I am wondering if this is what I have recently experienced. I often make a trip to a nearby city, 18 miles on motorway or dual carriageway and 4 miles urban. I often stop after half a mile to pick up a few things from the supermarket before resuming the journey. Did this on Saturday as had happened the previous week.

Last Saturday on the motorway I noticed that the MPG was showing 22 rather than the more usual 40 or so and by the end of the journey 26 instead of 48 or so. The range remaining also dropped off rather rapidly. No warning lights.

I stopped at a layby to check that the wheels were cold (no brakes engaged). Pulling off was low powered.
Weather on the day was the same as the week before (before this colder snap). This stop did not change the mpg.

Completed my journey and did a few short trips. Booked into the dealer for the Tuesday. Dealer checked and no fault found. Tested and got decent MPG. I was handed a statement about why real life mpg differ from the figure found in the catalogues. Nothing new to me and rather missed the point.

Drove home (attentively and being aware of next pull in as no hard shoulder) and all seems as normal.

Refilled and checked MPG on brim to brim. Put in 34 litres for 231 miles. Previous refill was 34 litres for 281 miles. Does a 50 mile deficit sound right for a GPF regen ?

Anyone else experienced the same?

If this is normal behaviour then it would be good if Seat could inform their customers saving a worrying customer experience and a wasted service visit.

If this is not normal behavior then what is going on? Is an extra 50 miles worth of petrol on a 20 mile journey likely to damage the cat?

Leon 2.0l TSi 190 DSG

 

[Seatle]

Hi everyone, I've just joined this forum after finding this thread useful.
I took my Leon FR190 to SEAT last week because the mpg had dropped from mid 40's to mid 20's, was running lumpy, smelt and fan ran after stopping and it would not go into coast when in Eco.
I drive mostly in Eco. I know it's boring but gives good mpg and i'm mostly commuting and cant use the power.
SEAT booked it in to check the clutch and investigate the poor mpg for a months time as they are busy...
After reading this thread I drove it in Normal mode and within about 20 miles it returned to how it should be - good economy and running smoothly.
So relieved that I have no problem and don't have to leave to the dealer to try an solve. So thanks!
I've had the car 18 months and a mechanic told me the DSG is good for atleast 100k if it gets oil changes so I was thinking here we go. I love the car and intend to keep it for some time if it behaves!

 

[Phil th Barrow]

Leon 190 petrol.

Well. Its happened again. Running/fueling erratically. Fuel usage up. Fan turned on. It was obviously trying to regen. I was travelling in Cheshire at th time for 30 odd miles and it got no better. Then when i got into th Derbishire hills and did th 4500 to 5000 rpm inclines throttle closed technic and it did cure its self... Its really annoying that this happens. I was told by a performance centre that th ash when burnt off gets pushed to th back of th honey comb in th GPF or ejected out th sides and collects in th bottom of its out caseing. ???

Id like to see a diagram if anyone as got one of these particular GPF and see if there is a way clearing it out propperly.

 

[MarkS2022]

Car has done just over 1300 miles and been running great however the last few (short) journeys the engine has been really lumpy and quite hesitant, there is also some jerkiness / kangarooing despite the speed being constant. The fuel economy has also pretty much halved and I've noticed that the fan has started to stay on after the engine is switched off.

If it was diesel I'd it put it down the the DPF doing a regen but its a petrol... No sure if ours has a GPF or not but I thought they only "passively" regen anyway and shouldn't be as intrusive as a diesel DPF?

Any help much appreciated, don't want to take a trip to the dealers if its normal / temporary but at the same time if there is an issue I'd rather get it sorted ASAP.

Hi

Sorry I'm late to the party on this but I bought a Leon FR 190 dsg in Nov22 and have noticed;

- The car running lumpy/ kangarooing at low speed on start up
- Pretty bad mpg (20's)
- engine fans coming on after almost every journey when cars just driven normal
- and a friend noticed a burning smell as I dropped him off the other day.

It's a used and approved Seat with a 2 year warranty, car is booked in next week to get looked at.

Sounds like I am having a number of the same issues you listed, did Seat look at your car? If so, what did they say/ do with the car.

Cheers
Mark

 

[SRGTD]

Hi

Sorry I'm late to the party on this but I bought a Leon FR 190 dsg in Nov22 and have noticed;

- The car running lumpy/ kangarooing at low speed on start up
- Pretty bad mpg (20's)
- engine fans coming on after almost every journey when cars just driven normal
- and a friend noticed a burning smell as I dropped him off the other day.

It's a used and approved Seat with a 2 year warranty, car is booked in next week to get looked at.

Sounds like I am having a number of the same issues you listed, did Seat look at your car? If so, what did they say/ do with the car.

Cheers
Mark

What year is your car and does it have a gasoline particulate filter (GPF)? If so, what type(s) of journey are you mainly driving? If it’s mainly short journeys when the engine doesn’t have an opportunity to get up to normal operating temperature, there’s a good chance the GPF will be accumulating more soot / you’re likely to experience more forced GPF regenerations than someone driving mainly long(er) journeys. Also, if the car’s engine is turned off when a forced regen is in progress, it’ll recommence the regen on the next journey - and subsequent journeys if your journeys are short - until it‘s been successfully completed.

I experienced a forced GPF regeneration in my VW Polo GTI (2.0 EA888 200ps gen 3b petrol engine) a few weeks ago. It was still in progress when I got home so I took the car for a run the following day to ensure the regen process could be successfully completed. During the regen I noticed,

• Louder exhaust note,
• slight hesitancy/ lumpiness of the engine and a slight reluctance to accelerate
• very poor fuel consumption (mpg was in the mid- 20’s rather than the usual 40-ish mpg.)
• engine fan running and continuing to run when I turned the engine off while the regen was in progress
• stop / start was inactive.

The whole process took around 30 minutes to complete, after which everything was back to normal.

It’s been said that GPF regenerations are passive so owners won’t notice them. That’s not the experience of VW owners with the 2.0 EA888 200ps gen 3b engine - quite a few instances of forced GPF regens reported over on uk-polos.net forum with the above symptoms present.

 

[MarkS2022]

What year is your car and does it have a gasoline particulate filter (GPF)? If so, what type(s) of journey are you mainly driving? If it’s mainly short journeys when the engine doesn’t have an opportunity to get up to normal operating temperature, there’s a good chance the GPF will be accumulating more soot / you’re likely to experience more forced GPF regenerations than someone driving mainly long(er) journeys. Also, if the car’s engine is turned off when a forced regen is in progress, it’ll recommence the regen on the next journey - and subsequent journeys if your journeys are short - until it‘s been successfully completed.

I experienced a forced GPF regeneration in my VW Polo GTI (2.0 EA888 200ps gen 3b petrol engine) a few weeks ago. It was still in progress when I got home so I took the car for a run the following day to ensure the regen process could be successfully completed. During the regen I noticed,

• Louder exhaust note,
• slight hesitancy/ lumpiness of the engine and a slight reluctance to accelerate
• very poor fuel consumption (mpg was in the mid- 20’s rather than the usual 40-ish mpg.)
• engine fan running and continuing to run when I turned the engine off while the regen was in progress
• stop / start was inactive.

The whole process took around 30 minutes to complete, after which everything was back to normal.

It’s been said that GPF regenerations are passive so owners won’t notice them. That’s not the experience of VW owners with the 2.0 EA888 200ps gen 3b engine - quite a few instances of forced GPF regens reported over on uk-polos.net forum with the above symptoms present.

Thanks for the info, my car is a 2019. I normally do short drives between say 10 - 45 mins a couple of times a week. I don't have to commute or anything as I work from home. Most times I drive my car at the mo the fans stay on after I have got out of the car for about a minute or two. Do you think I need to take the car for a longer driver to allow it to complete the regen program?

I think with me never driving the car for a journey longer than about 45 mins I'm probably not allowong the car to regen while in motion.

Thanks
Mark

 

[SRGTD]

It’ll certainly do no harm to take your car on a longer run, although if you’re doing a regular journey of around 45 minutes on A roads or dual carriageways with free flowing traffic, that ought to be sufficient to keep the GPF pretty clear of excessive soot accumulations. Having said that, it’s not known what types / length of journeys the previous owner of your car drove on a regular basis.

Screen shot of section from the owner’s manual (Nov 2019 edition) for cleaning the particulate filter is below.

Removing your foot off the accelerator as described in the owners manual helps to draw air / oxygen into the exhaust system as the car decelerate, and the extra air / oxygen aids the process of burning off any soot accumulation in the particulate filter. I carry out this process periodically in my car on longer journeys to (hopefully) help reduce soot build up. I tend to change down to fifth gear, accelerate to around 3,500 - 4,000 rpm and remove my foot off the accelerator to let the car decelerate. I repeat this process usually around 6-7 times.

My journey mix is probably 1/3 shorter journeys and 2/3 longer journeys and in the (almost) 2.5 years I‘ve owned my car, I think I‘ve experienced 2 - possibly 3 - forced GPF regenerations.

 

[Mr Mustard]

The fan on mine does stay on after turning the car on any time it's been driven enthusiastically or on a hot day. But never experienced the other symptoms you describe in over 12k miles.
Does sound like a GPF issue, hopefully the dealer will sort it.

 

[Glosphil]

My 2018 1.4TSi (150) DSG has averaged 45.4mpg over the last 17k miles, which have been a mixture of journeys less than 5 miles, return journeys of 40-45 miles & a few 150 miles on motorways. On the motorway journeys it has easily averaged 52-53mpg. At 70mph in 7th gear the engine is turning over at less than 2100rpm. The decent low down torque of the engine means I rarely need to use above 3000rpm. Max torque is more than my 1989 Sierra XR4x4 (with its 2.8i 6-cylinder engine) & at 1/2 the revs.

 

[Phil th Barrow]

It’ll certainly do no harm to take your car on a longer run, although if you’re doing a regular journey of around 45 minutes on A roads or dual carriageways with free flowing traffic, that ought to be sufficient to keep the GPF pretty clear of excessive soot accumulations. Having said that, it’s not known what types / length of journeys the previous owner of your car drove on a regular basis.

Screen shot of section from the owner’s manual (Nov 2019 edition) for cleaning the particulate filter is below.

Removing your foot off the accelerator as described in the owners manual helps to draw air / oxygen into the exhaust system as the car decelerate, and the extra air / oxygen aids the process of burning off any soot accumulation in the particulate filter. I carry out this process periodically in my car on longer journeys to (hopefully) help reduce soot build up. I tend to change down to fifth gear, accelerate to around 3,500 - 4,000 rpm and remove my foot off the accelerator to let the car decelerate. I repeat this process usually around 6-7 times.

My journey mix is probably 1/3 shorter journeys and 2/3 longer journeys and in the (almost) 2.5 years I‘ve owned my car, I think I‘ve experienced 2 - possibly 3 - forced GPF regenerations.

View attachment 35741

Thanks SRGTD for this info again for us troubled drivers.

My 190 is 2019. It as all th regen issues that av been previously mentioned.
Fan on after th engine stopped
lumpy running
poor fuel economy
smell of hot exhaust.

It says in your hand book (but iv never seen it in mine) To do th down hill closed throttle/hill runs. This should then exstinguish th regen light. Mine as never come on.!!! but it is deffinatly regening.

Yes we can be all blamed for short runs???? (They all do that sir) But what happens if that is your life style as mine was at that time, going to work and back .. 3.5 miles each way. Surely Seat should have thought of this. So they created th regen that should be hardly noticed. In my case its very noticable and with my short runs it was never completed totally succesfully. Until a kind fellow on here said go down hill at 4500 approx with foot off throttle. That cured it. So in th last couple of years, i now note that it needs a regen when th fueling starts to feel fluffy (Lean)... I then put it in manuel and sellect a gear to give me 4500revs approx closed throttle down hill run, with obviously a nicely warmed engine.. I also now do this when im out and about as a matter keeping it at bay. So far so good...

In th future will this get worse and create a exspensive GPF cleaning or replacement ?? We will have to see..

I wonder is someone from Seat can put our minds at ease over these regen problems.???

 

[Eskilation]

35k miles and 3.5 years and never noticed a regen but this morning after a LOT of short runs recently as working from home more had the exact same symptoms as above.

Took for a run as per procedure and all clear now. Was not worried as read about it before here.

My only point to make is my manual does not have above change / details my is an 18 (68 plate) and also no light on dash so can see an owner without knowledge and forum access why they would think something amiss and start worrying.

Maybe correct manuals not sent out with cars and dash light not setup - anyone get a dash light. Would def help resolve the worry when all above symptoms happen.

PS - thanks SRGTD for the updated manual page.

 

[SRGTD]

My only point to make is my manual does not have above change / details my is an 18 (68 plate) and also no light on dash so can see an owner without knowledge and forum access why they would think something amiss and start worrying.

Maybe correct manuals not sent out with cars and dash light not setup - anyone get a dash light. Would def help resolve the worry when all above symptoms happen.

PS - thanks SRGTD for the updated manual page.

My VW also doesn’t have a dash light to alert the driver to a forced GPF regeneration being performed, and based on similar discussions on some of the other VW forums, other VW models with a GPF don’t have a warning light either.

 

[Eskilation]

My VW also doesn’t have a dash light to alert the driver to a forced GPF regeneration being performed, and based on similar discussions on some of the other VW forums, other VW models with a GPF don’t have a warning light either.

Ok so pretty std across all VAG range. Maybe the light more for diesel. Shame they missed manual update too thank god for this and other forums.

I just think be useful as would have saved some people a trip to dealers knowing this and dealers time looking at cars as it’s a simple process when known and nothing to worry about.

 

[Tester01]

Does the 1.5 TSI EA211 have a GPF?
See manual says 2.0 TSI but nothing about 1.5s, is this defo the case?

have had really bad fuel consumption for months and it’s been serviced.
Can’t understand why and it’s frustrating

 

[SRGTD]

Does the 1.5 TSI EA211 have a GPF?
See manual says 2.0 TSI but nothing about 1.5s, is this defo the case?

have had really bad fuel consumption for months and it’s been serviced.
Can’t understand why and it’s frustrating

The articles at the links below suggest your car will have a GPF as VAG stated back in 2016 that they would be fitting Gasoline Particulate Filters to all direct injection petrol TSI and TFSI engines from 2017.

https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/ ... gines-1567

https://fleetworld.co.uk/vw-group-fit-p ... ters-2017/

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswage ... ol-engines

As for your mpg; it’s only during the forced GPF regeneration process that the fuel consumption suffers compared to the ‘normal’ mpg as additional fuel is used to help burn off accumulated soot in the particulate filter during the regeneration. Based on my personal experience, a forced regeneration with my VW takes around 30 minutes to complete. Therefore, if you’re experiencing a general deterioration in mpg then it’s likely to be due to other factors, especially if your car’s not displaying any other the other symptoms that indicate a forced regeneration is taking place;

• are you relying on the car’s fuel computer for your fuel consumption figures or are you calculating your mpg manually? If the former, it would be worth calculating it manually over a few months.
• have you switched fuel brands?
• has your mix journey type changed? e.g. are you doing more short journeys at peak times and fewer longer journeys?
• are you driving more short journeys on cold engine than you were previously?
• do other drivers use your car? If so, are they driving it more frequently than previously?
• are your tyres at the correct pressure?
• have you recently changed your tyres to a different brand with a poorer fuel economy rating?
• I’ve read that in addition to there being summer and winter blends of diesel, there are also summer and winter blends of petrol. Winter blend fuels are usually sold from mid November to mid March. With diesel, using winter blend fuel results in poorer mpg; maybe the same is also the case with winter petrol?

 

[Tester01]

The articles at the links below suggest your car will have a GPF as VAG stated back in 2016 that they would be fitting Gasoline Particulate Filters to all direct injection petrol TSI and TFSI engines from 2017.

https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/ ... gines-1567

https://fleetworld.co.uk/vw-group-fit-p ... ters-2017/

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswage ... ol-engines

As for your mpg; it’s only during the forced GPF regeneration process that the fuel consumption suffers compared to the ‘normal’ mpg as additional fuel is used to help burn off accumulated soot in the particulate filter during the regeneration. Based on my personal experience, a forced regeneration with my VW takes around 30 minutes to complete. Therefore, if you’re experiencing a general deterioration in mpg then it’s likely to be due to other factors, especially if your car’s not displaying any other the other symptoms that indicate a forced regeneration is taking place;

• are you relying on the car’s fuel computer for your fuel consumption figures or are you calculating your mpg manually? If the former, it would be worth calculating it manually over a few months.
• have you switched fuel brands?
• has your mix journey type changed? e.g. are you doing more short journeys at peak times and fewer longer journeys?
• are you driving more short journeys on cold engine than you were previously?
• do other drivers use your car? If so, are they driving it more frequently than previously?
• are your tyres at the correct pressure?
• have you recently changed your tyres to a different brand with a poorer fuel economy rating?
• I’ve read that in addition to there being summer and winter blends of diesel, there are also summer and winter blends of petrol. Winter blend fuels are usually sold from mid November to mid March. With diesel, using winter blend fuel results in poorer mpg; maybe the same is also the case with winter petrol?

Replied to you on the Polo forum but didn’t realise you were here too


Hey thanks for getting back to me, appreciate it.

Hmm not sure then, I’ve had the car around 6 months now and experienced relatively underwelming/poor MPG from day one. Should’ve just returned but thought I’d see it through thinking it’s because I’ve got a new car that may have been sat undriven for months, just need some time to break in.

I’ve calculated manually here and there not consistently admittedly, didn’t seem too different to what the computer was reading. But started to track again tank to tank using an app last week. So will have to wait and see.

I’ve tried different fuel brands Tesco Momentum, Supermarket, Costco etc. Doesn’t seem to much in it for difference tbh.
Probably getting on average 320ish miles from a full tank and according to the trip computer that I’ve reset previously, my average over last 2000miles is about 28MPg.
I’ve seen people with Cupras get better.

My journeys have been a mixture of short and long journeys, but I do like to take my car down the motorway every so often when I’m mainly doing short. To give it a run and to see what I can squeeze out of it

Nobody else drives my car just me

Tyres have been the same since I bought it maybe something I should look into not sure of the brand will check tomorrow


I know typically fuel economy worsens in winter but can’t figure out why mines so bad when I check owner groups and people with the same model easily seeing 40+ and I’m struggling to get low 30s even on a long run.

Thought a major service might have done the trick but nothings changed, car does seem a bit smoother but fuel wise nah

What’s the best way to force a regen? Just so I can at least rule that out.

Took from screenshots last week from OBDeleven live data on engine block, after seeing this thread, not sure if it means much. Not exactly sure what I’m looking for and was taken shortly after starting car hadn’t driven it.

Been to a Main dealer about this fuel economy issue but seems they won’t investigate if they don’t see any fault codes which is annoying.
Definitely something wrong here what it is I don’t know.

also popped into the dealer today and apparently my fuel consumption again is normal. As my car is supposed to get 40MPG average.
So me getting sub 30 is okay.

 

[SRGTD]

Replied to you on the Polo forum but didn’t realise you were here too


Hey thanks for getting back to me, appreciate it.

Hmm not sure then, I’ve had the car around 6 months now and experienced relatively underwelming/poor MPG from day one. Should’ve just returned but thought I’d see it through thinking it’s because I’ve got a new car that may have been sat undriven for months, just need some time to break in.

I’ve calculated manually here and there not consistently admittedly, didn’t seem too different to what the computer was reading. But started to track again tank to tank using an app last week. So will have to wait and see.

I’ve tried different fuel brands Tesco Momentum, Supermarket, Costco etc. Doesn’t seem to much in it for difference tbh.
Probably getting on average 320ish miles from a full tank and according to the trip computer that I’ve reset previously, my average over last 2000miles is about 28MPg.
I’ve seen people with Cupras get better.

My journeys have been a mixture of short and long journeys, but I do like to take my car down the motorway every so often when I’m mainly doing short. To give it a run and to see what I can squeeze out of it

Nobody else drives my car just me

Tyres have been the same since I bought it maybe something I should look into not sure of the brand will check tomorrow


I know typically fuel economy worsens in winter but can’t figure out why mines so bad when I check owner groups and people with the same model easily seeing 40+ and I’m struggling to get low 30s even on a long run.

Thought a major service might have done the trick but nothings changed, car does seem a bit smoother but fuel wise nah

What’s the best way to force a regen? Just so I can at least rule that out.

Took from screenshots last week from OBDeleven live data on engine block, after seeing this thread, not sure if it means much. Not exactly sure what I’m looking for and was taken shortly after starting car hadn’t driven it.

Been to a Main dealer about this fuel economy issue but seems they won’t investigate if they don’t see any fault codes which is annoying.
Definitely something wrong here what it is I don’t know.

also popped into the dealer today and apparently my fuel consumption again is normal. As my car is supposed to get 40MPG average.
So me getting sub 30 is okay.

On the face of it, consistently getting sub-30 mpg does sound low for a 1.5 Leon if driven ‘normally’ with a fair proportion of longer journeys being undertaken. To put your mpg figure into some sort of context; my long term average is around 41 - 42 mpg in my 2.0 litre 197 bhp (200 ps) VW Polo GTI+ with 6 speed DSG.

Is your 1.5 engine the 130 or 150 ps unit? It would be interesting to hear what long term mpg figures other forum members are getting that have a mk3 Leon FR with the same 1.5 EVO engine as yours.

 

[Tester01]

On the face of it, consistently getting sub-30 mpg does sound low for a 1.5 Leon if driven ‘normally’ with a fair proportion of longer journeys being undertaken. To put your mpg figure into some sort of context; my long term average is around 41 - 42 mpg in my 2.0 litre 197 bhp (200 ps) VW Polo GTI+ with 6 speed DSG.

Is your 1.5 engine the 130 or 150 ps unit? It would be interesting to hear what long term mpg figures other forum members are getting that have a mk3 Leon FR with the same 1.5 EVO engine as yours.

150 mate.

I can somewhat understand the poor mpg around town bit but on the motorway on a long ish drive. I definitely shouldn’t be struggling to reach say 35mpg never mind 40MPG

Weird as I’ve seen people with the same engine get much better mpg on the Facebook owner groups.

Same goes for Audi A3 1.5 TFSI owners, obviously I know different car different weight but practically same engine. So figures shouldn’t be that vastly different.

 

[johnnygal]

Just to say thanks to the feedback and suggestions on this thread, I am really glad I found it. It sorted out the problem for me too!

My problems started suddenly on one day - lumpy/hesitations, start/stop not working, woeful fuel economy...I thought it strange they all happened together and thought it might be some sensor that was at fault. I mean why would the start/stop say it couldn't turn off the engine because it had to be running! Yes, it is running. But now I know it probably meant, that the engine NEEDS to be running.

Once I found this thread, I too checked the fan and it was staying on after engine turnoff too.
So, onto a 60 mph stretch of road, gearbox to manual, 4000 rpm, then throttle off and coast. I did this 3-4 times over a mile or so, pulled over and the start/stop worked straight away. And back to normal smoothness - Yippee!

So thanks again to all, what a great resource these forums are.