silica grain in the header tank

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BillyCool

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Jan 16, 2020
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Or/and evolved the coolant so that this silicate boost is not required?

Really that is why I keep enquiring as to the when/why/which version of coolant and maybe which engine types that surrounds this general subject.

I'm not sure you'll ever get a complete answer. Like you, I've tried to read up on it and never get a clear picture.

I know some of this info has been posted before. Looking at this web-site:


"G13 contains some silicate additives for that additional healing aluminium protection. This is contrary to some earlier specifications that use OAT-technology (Organic Acid Technology). Silicate additives make G13 ideal for long-term use in all modern radiators, especially those constructed from aluminium, cast iron and magnesium alloys."

Based on what they say, the newer G13 coolant has silicate additives, hence the need to top it up with the silicate `tea bag`. What I can't find anywhere is how often you'd change coolant without the tea bag.

I'm going old school and going to have my changed every 2 year or whenever the inspection service takes place. Unless someone can find an updo date service schedule!

EDIT

Interesting read here about evolution of coolants and which ones relate to which VAG coolants:

 
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RUM4MO

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Thanks, I'll re-read the content of these links, the only issue I have is still, why are these "booster dosing" bags now, it seems disappearing, unless G13 really has been replaced with G12evo as I think, someone has mentioned earlier.

Does anyone know what the coolant versions are called that VW Group dealerships are currently selling, and are they, for modern car, ie 2000> cars, only selling a single version of their coolant or two?
 

SuperV8

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May 30, 2019
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Thanks, I'll re-read the content of these links, the only issue I have is still, why are these "booster dosing" bags now, it seems disappearing, unless G13 really has been replaced with G12evo as I think, someone has mentioned earlier.

Does anyone know what the coolant versions are called that VW Group dealerships are currently selling, and are they, for modern car, ie 2000> cars, only selling a single version of their coolant or two?


Yes - G12Evo (TL 774-L ~ G65) is VAG's latest coolant - replacing G13 (TL 774 J ~ GG40)

1607421367136.png

1607421096835.png



5Q0121407G is MIT (with) Silicate
5Q0121407M is WITHOUT Silicate

1607421040063.png


So this switch in header tanks to without silicate repository also correlates with the change from G13 to G12Evo coolant! maybe G12Evo has more silicates in it? I can't find a spec sheet for this.

I can't find info about any service schedule regarding changing your coolant on pre 2019 or post 2019 - just to check level and top-up if required!

Reading between the lines! I would suggest it is best to use G12Evo coolant if you switch to a header tank WITHOUT silicate repository.
 
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SEAT Rule

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Nov 19, 2019
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Ok I've been looking at different websites online trying to research information on this subject regarding G13 antifreeze lifespan, haven't been able to find out anything new, just the same old specs, but nothing regarding how long it's meant to last.
Not until I came across a Hella website (Hella Tech World) which went into detail about antifreeze including G13.

Basically G13 with the silicate bag or cartridge is meant to aid the coolant and enhance it's life span, so this we know already. But it's ment to increase it to roughly 15 years, but states this depends if contamination occurs and what water is used, from tap water which varies up and down the UK, then possibly varies again in Europe, also mentions if the coolant has been mixed with other, this can contaminate it and shorten it's life, including oil contamination and possibly what type of water is used as already mentioned.
Ideally should use deionized water or filtered water or distilled water, due to tape water having a different PH and containing possible different minerals and other things, that may or can effect the antifreeze lifespan.

15 years lifespan this is madness.
VAG didn't take into account that the silicate bag would deteriorate after only 4 or 5 years, so I'm thinking there possibly is other metals within the cooling system other than alloy & cast iron that is reacting with the silicate bag, which of cause the silicate is ment to stop. I for one don't know of any antifreeze/coolant that can last 15 years, basically there isn't one.
But VAG have tried to stretch it's lifespan this way that unfortunately hasn't & doesn't work.
So the coolant in question should last up to 15 years only if no contamination occurs, but contamination does occur in virtually all coolants, so it's a no brainer

So G13 with silicate is meant to last up to 15 years.
G13 without silicate bag realistically will last 4 to 5 years max, as far as I'm aware 5 years is the max lifespan for Antifreeze.

G11 = is changed every 2 to 3 years
The average boiling point of class G-11 is at around 105 degrees Celsius. The optimal mileage, declared by the manufacturer, ranges from 50,000 to 80,000 kilometers, which is on average 2 to 3 years with gentle operation of the engine.

G12 = is changed between 3 to 5 years
G-12 or red antifreeze, as they are also called, have an extended service life without loss of performance, which can be correlated with five years or an approximate mileage of 250,000 kilometers. And has a boiling point of 115 to 120 degrees

G12+ is changed between 3 to 5 years
This is a further development of G12 but is less harmful to the environment.

G12++ is changed every 3 to 5 years
Again slightly more advanced from G12+ and is also much less harmful to the environment.

G13 without silicate bag should last 4 to 5 years max, or you can change it more frequently if you wish. This is much less harmful to the environment compared to the others above.

Link below to advise on changing coolant on VAG vehicles.


This is from that website.
And I quote,
Coolant is the generic term for the cooling liquid in the cooling system. Coolant protects against frost, corrosion, overheating and lubricates. Its task is to absorb the engine heat and dissipate it via the cooler.

The coolant is a mixture of tap-water and anti-freezing compound (glycol/ethanol) mixed with various additives (bitter substance, silicate, antioxidant agents, foam inhibitors) and coloured. Bitter substances are used to prevent the coolant from being drunk inadvertently. Silicates form a protective layer on the metal surfaces and prevent e.g. limescale deposits. Antioxidant agents prevent corrosion of components. Foam inhibitors suppress the foaming of the coolant. Glycol keeps hoses and seals smooth and raises the coolant’s boiling point.

The mixing ratio of water and antifreeze should lie between 60:40 and 50:50. This usually corresponds to antifreeze protection from -25°C to -40°C. The minimal mixing ratio should be 70:30 and
the maximal 40:60. Further increasing the proportion of antifreeze (e.g. 30:70) does not lower the freezing point any further. On the contrary, undiluted antifreeze freezes at around -13°C and does not dissipate sufficient engine heat at temperatures above 0°C. The engine would overheat. As the boiling point of glycol is very high, the boiling point of the coolant can be raised to up to 135 °C by using the right mixing ratio. Therefore, a sufficient antifreeze share is important even in warm countries. Always follow the manufacturer’s instructions. A typical composition could be 40%/60% or 50%/50% with the use of inhibited water (drinking water quality).


The coolant and its additives are subject to a certain wear, i.e. part of the additives will be used up in the course of some years. If, for example, the corrosion protection additives are exhausted, the coolant turns brown. Therefore, some manufacturers specify a coolant replacement interval.

However, the cooling systems of newer cars are increasingly filled with so-called long-life coolants (e.g. VW G12++ / G13). Under normal circumstances (if no contamination occurs), the coolant need not be changed (VW) or only after 15 years or 250,000 km (newer Mercedes models). As a rule, the coolant should be changed if contamination (oil, corrosion) has occurred and in the case of vehicles which are not equipped with long-life coolant. The vehicle manufacturer’s instructions must be followed in terms of the specifications, replacement interval, mixing ratio and the miscibility of the antifreeze.


plus I've found and uploaded various PDF files that might be of help.

hope this helps
si
 

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BillyCool

Active Member
Jan 16, 2020
706
275
Leicestershire, UK
Ok I've been looking at different websites online trying to research information on this subject regarding G13 antifreeze lifespan, haven't been able to find out anything new, just the same old specs, but nothing regarding how long it's meant to last.
Not until I came across a Hella website (Hella Tech World) which went into detail about antifreeze including G13.

Basically G13 with the silicate bag or cartridge is meant to aid the coolant and enhance it's life span, so this we know already. But it's ment to increase it to roughly 15 years, but states this depends if contamination occurs and what water is used, from tap water which varies up and down the UK, then possibly varies again in Europe, also mentions if the coolant has been mixed with other, this can contaminate it and shorten it's life, including oil contamination and possibly what type of water is used as already mentioned.
Ideally should use deionized water or filtered water or distilled water, due to tape water having a different PH and containing possible different minerals and other things, that may or can effect the antifreeze lifespan.

15 years lifespan this is madness.
VAG didn't take into account that the silicate bag would deteriorate after only 4 or 5 years, so I'm thinking there possibly is other metals within the cooling system other than alloy & cast iron that is reacting with the silicate bag, which of cause the silicate is ment to stop. I for one don't know of any antifreeze/coolant that can last 15 years, basically there isn't one.
But VAG have tried to stretch it's lifespan this way that unfortunately hasn't & doesn't work.
So the coolant in question should last up to 15 years only if no contamination occurs, but contamination does occur in virtually all coolants, so it's a no brainer

So G13 with silicate is meant to last up to 15 years.
G13 without silicate bag realistically will last 4 to 5 years max, as far as I'm aware 5 years is the max lifespan for Antifreeze.

G11 = is changed every 2 to 3 years
The average boiling point of class G-11 is at around 105 degrees Celsius. The optimal mileage, declared by the manufacturer, ranges from 50,000 to 80,000 kilometers, which is on average 2 to 3 years with gentle operation of the engine.

G12 = is changed between 3 to 5 years
G-12 or red antifreeze, as they are also called, have an extended service life without loss of performance, which can be correlated with five years or an approximate mileage of 250,000 kilometers. And has a boiling point of 115 to 120 degrees

G12+ is changed between 3 to 5 years
This is a further development of G12 but is less harmful to the environment.

G12++ is changed every 3 to 5 years
Again slightly more advanced from G12+ and is also much less harmful to the environment.

G13 without silicate bag should last 4 to 5 years max, or you can change it more frequently if you wish. This is much less harmful to the environment compared to the others above.

Link below to advise on changing coolant on VAG vehicles.


This is from that website.
And I quote,
Coolant is the generic term for the cooling liquid in the cooling system. Coolant protects against frost, corrosion, overheating and lubricates. Its task is to absorb the engine heat and dissipate it via the cooler.

The coolant is a mixture of tap-water and anti-freezing compound (glycol/ethanol) mixed with various additives (bitter substance, silicate, antioxidant agents, foam inhibitors) and coloured. Bitter substances are used to prevent the coolant from being drunk inadvertently. Silicates form a protective layer on the metal surfaces and prevent e.g. limescale deposits. Antioxidant agents prevent corrosion of components. Foam inhibitors suppress the foaming of the coolant. Glycol keeps hoses and seals smooth and raises the coolant’s boiling point.

The mixing ratio of water and antifreeze should lie between 60:40 and 50:50. This usually corresponds to antifreeze protection from -25°C to -40°C. The minimal mixing ratio should be 70:30 and
the maximal 40:60. Further increasing the proportion of antifreeze (e.g. 30:70) does not lower the freezing point any further. On the contrary, undiluted antifreeze freezes at around -13°C and does not dissipate sufficient engine heat at temperatures above 0°C. The engine would overheat. As the boiling point of glycol is very high, the boiling point of the coolant can be raised to up to 135 °C by using the right mixing ratio. Therefore, a sufficient antifreeze share is important even in warm countries. Always follow the manufacturer’s instructions. A typical composition could be 40%/60% or 50%/50% with the use of inhibited water (drinking water quality).


The coolant and its additives are subject to a certain wear, i.e. part of the additives will be used up in the course of some years. If, for example, the corrosion protection additives are exhausted, the coolant turns brown. Therefore, some manufacturers specify a coolant replacement interval.

However, the cooling systems of newer cars are increasingly filled with so-called long-life coolants (e.g. VW G12++ / G13). Under normal circumstances (if no contamination occurs), the coolant need not be changed (VW) or only after 15 years or 250,000 km (newer Mercedes models). As a rule, the coolant should be changed if contamination (oil, corrosion) has occurred and in the case of vehicles which are not equipped with long-life coolant. The vehicle manufacturer’s instructions must be followed in terms of the specifications, replacement interval, mixing ratio and the miscibility of the antifreeze.


plus I've found and uploaded various PDF files that might be of help.

hope this helps
si

Good effort that man! I was looking at similar information and must admit that I switched off a little.

As @RUM4MO had mentioned, it was hard to know the lifespan of a coolant without the tea bag and what the service intervals would be.

For my car, I was going to change coolant every 2 years when the inspection service was due (give or take). Since the new coolants seem to be backward compatible to a point, it hopefully won't be an issue.

As you say, this was VAG trying to reduce service costs with a `lifetime` coolant.
 

BigJase88

Jase
Apr 20, 2008
3,767
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But what use is 15 year coolant when you have to change timing belt every 4 years and when you do that you will also be changing the waterpump and coolant if you have any sense
 

RUM4MO

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But what use is 15 year coolant when you have to change timing belt every 4 years and when you do that you will also be changing the waterpump and coolant if you have any sense
Well maybe that is at least VW Group's get out of jail free card, ie all cars with belts and many with chains will need a new water pump - or even a chain.

My car, a 2011 S4, is the first car that I have had for years and held onto, that has not needed its cooling system opening up, so I bought coolant test sticks from USA to measure what is normally measured to assess engine coolant, and that is PH value and freezing point, unfortunately using these test sticks has not driven me to wanting to replace the coolant, I've used other new and newish VW Group cars coolant to compare results, even checked new G12++ and G13 both mixed with soft tap water. Moving towards being more acidic than when new is one warning as obviously so is a drop in freezing protection.

One thing on service life, I have yet to read of an aftermarket supplier of coolant to advise much more than "2 years" - is that being safe, or never carried out testing, or just being greedy - also I have never ever needed to top up the coolant in my S4 over the past 7.5 years. That car has a large header tank, so progressively replacing the coolant 2 litres at a time will not be a problem, and I'll probably start doing that soon, using the latest version of VW Group coolant ie G12Evo, my wife's 2015 Polo 1.2TSI is not a worry as it will get a new cam belt within a year or so, my daughter's 2019 SEAT Leon Cupra should really be her boyfriend's area of concern, I might buy her a new header tank after it is out of warranty.

I've come from a Ford car owning back ground, well up to 2000, and they had been using long life coolant for many years along with frequent cam belt changes.

I just wish VW Group would include some guidance on this, even the official workshop manuals leave that bit out, all very strange.
 

Peller

Active Member
Mar 29, 2016
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Edinburgh
I've just had our car serviced today and upon checking the maintenance list they check the coolant condition. Hopefully other official dealers do the same!

Sorry about the pic quality, thanks Tapatalk!

1b21945efd3b40e77bab4acee18a104e.jpg
 

RUM4MO

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South Scotland
@Peller, that has nothing to do with this discussion, and I mean that in a "gentle" way, all they are doing is checking the coolant using a refractometer(I hope) as they do not have any idea if you have been topping up the coolant with straight water.
That is an old school way of including extras in the service checks - and no bad thing!
As you say, I'd doubt if that is a line item on the dealership tick list.

Edited to include a missing "bad" as in "no bad thing"
 
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SuperV8

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I've just had our car serviced today and upon checking the maintenance list they check the coolant condition. Hopefully other official dealers do the same!

Sorry about the pic quality, thanks Tapatalk!

1b21945efd3b40e77bab4acee18a104e.jpg
Yes, that is all there is regarding coolant on the official maintenance schedules -

"Cooling system: check for leaks. Check the level and anti-freeze strength; correct if necessary "

Nothing regarding age/contamination/mileage or when to flush/change coolant, which is one of the issues on this thread - owners/garages are left to figure this out on there own!
 

SuperV8

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May 30, 2019
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Well maybe that is at least VW Group's get out of jail free card, ie all cars with belts and many with chains will need a new water pump - or even a chain.

My car, a 2011 S4, is the first car that I have had for years and held onto, that has not needed its cooling system opening up, so I bought coolant test sticks from USA to measure what is normally measured to assess engine coolant, and that is PH value and freezing point, unfortunately using these test sticks has not driven me to wanting to replace the coolant, I've used other new and newish VW Group cars coolant to compare results, even checked new G12++ and G13 both mixed with soft tap water. Moving towards being more acidic than when new is one warning as obviously so is a drop in freezing protection.

One thing on service life, I have yet to read of an aftermarket supplier of coolant to advise much more than "2 years" - is that being safe, or never carried out testing, or just being greedy - also I have never ever needed to top up the coolant in my S4 over the past 7.5 years. That car has a large header tank, so progressively replacing the coolant 2 litres at a time will not be a problem, and I'll probably start doing that soon, using the latest version of VW Group coolant ie G12Evo, my wife's 2015 Polo 1.2TSI is not a worry as it will get a new cam belt within a year or so, my daughter's 2019 SEAT Leon Cupra should really be her boyfriend's area of concern, I might buy her a new header tank after it is out of warranty.

I've come from a Ford car owning back ground, well up to 2000, and they had been using long life coolant for many years along with frequent cam belt changes.

I just wish VW Group would include some guidance on this, even the official workshop manuals leave that bit out, all very strange.
Regarding advertised coolant service life:
I'm 'fairly' sure this is the same stuff as G13:
Quote: "Typical service life of up to 5 years. "
1607588988514.png


I did my parents cam belt last year in their Ford Cmax 1.6TDCI which had a 10 year or 120k miles change interval!
 

RUM4MO

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Jun 4, 2008
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Yes I think I mentioned that all aftermarket suppliers/brands of coolant either give them 2 years or 5 years - which seems almost sensible though if so why don't VW Group suggest the same service life for their coolant which will be based on the same BASF product.

Ford, 10 years, that does ring a bell from way back now if they have been quoting that since, in my experience from back in 1982, they will have had plenty time to revisit that service life as they revised their "brew" to best suit the materials in newer cars, and it sounds like they have not needed to.
I think that I've told this sorry tale before, but here it is again:- my wife ran a 1994(?) Ford Fiesta SI - the one with the ZETEC engine, it got its cam belt replaced at the correct time/mileage which was lets say 9 years, 6 months later, I decided to replace all its rubber hoses and steel hose and coolant, I flushed it through with warm water before replacing the hoses then filled it up with warm soft water and took it for a drive prior to dumping that water out and refilling with coolant mix, when I got back home water was running out from the engine - water pump shaft was now leaking as I had successfully cleared out most of the crud in the system that was masking a worn water pump seal - and that car was being left for our daughters to use while we went on holiday abroad in a few days, luckily my wife managed to get another Ford garage to replace the water pump and also that new cam belt the day before we went on holiday!

Edit:- that is one thing I like about Comma, they don't normally if ever pretend that they are re-inventing anything, they are just using industry standard materials, like in this case BASF GG40.
 

SuperV8

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May 30, 2019
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But what use is 15 year coolant when you have to change timing belt every 4 years and when you do that you will also be changing the waterpump and coolant if you have any sense
Yes, the official Seat maintenance manual says when ever any part of the cooling system is disturbed - including water pump - the cooling system should be flushed and filled with new coolant, so it's like they are covering the coolant life issue with other maintenance items!

I think I read that its only the UK has the 5 year timing belt requirement?
 

Dangerousdean

Active Member
Nov 29, 2020
7
2
Parts arrived today from Germany but the expansion tank has the silica bag inside..... do I try and take it apart and remove the bag or just fit it as is?
 

BillyCool

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Jan 16, 2020
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Leicestershire, UK
Parts arrived today from Germany but the expansion tank has the silica bag inside..... do I try and take it apart and remove the bag or just fit it as is?

I'd leave it in, unless it's easy to get out. I doubt the bag will fail in the next couple of years and you can always swap it out for one without a bag in a few months if you want piece of mind.
 

RUM4MO

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Jun 4, 2008
7,966
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Parts arrived today from Germany but the expansion tank has the silica bag inside..... do I try and take it apart and remove the bag or just fit it as is?
I think that you, if you are concerned, need to ask to ask your dealer why this tank with "mit silikat" is being fitted now that G12evo is being used as a coolant.
 

SuperV8

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May 30, 2019
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I'd leave it in, unless it's easy to get out. I doubt the bag will fail in the next couple of years and you can always swap it out for one without a bag in a few months if you want piece of mind.
Agree - but the latest version of the tank (M suffix) is without silicate bag - what is the part number of this tank? Is it after market of original equipment?
 

Dangerousdean

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Nov 29, 2020
7
2
These are the part number for the expansion tank and heater matrix
 

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BigJase88

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Mine just got changed at SEAT main dealer to non silicate tank, will get part number tomorrow and update
 

Dangerousdean

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Nov 29, 2020
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£60 from autodoc in Germany took nearly a week but I think it’s going to be worth it, that was for both matrix and bottle