Please read: Precations to stop timing chain jumping after oil change

[lucifer666]

This has happened to me and even official VW and SEAT dealerships.

We all know the procedure of a service, get oil up to operating temperature then undo the sump plug and drain the oil. Makes sense, when the oil is hot it drains better and flows out of all the little crevices better.

With this engine there are some fundamental problems with doing this. Its all to do with the timing chain tensioner. This tensioner is hydraulic and relies on the oil in the engine to fill it. Its job is to make sure the timing chain is at the correct tension to stop it jumping or slipping etc.

When you drain the oil whilst its hot, it empty's this hydraulic tensioner making the chain slack, and upon restarting the engine after the engine is filled up with new oil, theres a decent chance of the timing chain jumping a tooth because its not had a chance to re-fill yet.

So with this engine, the best procedure is to empty the oil whilst cold and it will stay in the tensioner.


Some of you may think this is exaggeration but according to TSR who have built 2 of these engines now, they have been approached by official dealerships in the area about 4 or 5 times last year with the exact same problem as me, that the car has timing problems after changing the oil.

Im not saying this will 100% happen every time you change your oil when its hot but, I have personally done 7 oil changes whilst oil was hot and it jumped on the 7th, not a risk worth taking in the future..............YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

 

[DEAN0]

The reason is that the oil pump will continue to pump oil around the engine for 10-15min or so after the engine is switched off

I'm struggling with this part. Is the oil pump on these engines electric ?

It is not possible for a mechanical engine driven pump to continue pumping oil around the engine once it has stopped.

 

[lucifer666]

im sure it sais that in the twincharger manual about the pump continuing to circulate after the engine is off, dosent say how it works

 

[NetworkMan]

It is not possible for a mechanical engine driven pump to continue pumping oil around the engine once it has stopped.

I'd agree with that 10000%!

What engine are we talking about here?
I know the 1.2 TSI and 1.4 twincharger both have mechanical oil pumps. The 1.2 TSI has an electric coolant pump that circulates water around turbocharger and through the intercooler. Is there some confusion here?

 

[lucifer666]

I'd agree with that 10000%!

What engine are we talking about here?
I know the 1.2 TSI and 1.4 twincharger both have mechanical oil pumps. The 1.2 TSI has an electric coolant pump that circulates water around turbocharger and through the intercooler. Is there some confusion here?

having just checked the manual, it is the coolant and not oil that continues to circulate, my bad.........but it dosent change the main message of the post, which I have got from some very reliable sources. I'll edit the main post. The note was just my addition to what has been explained to me. Cant believe I read it incorrectly, very rare that I make a mistake like that lol

 

[DEAN0]

having just checked the manual, it is the coolant and not oil that continues to circulate, my bad.........but it dosent change the main message of the post, which I have got from some very reliable sources. I'll edit the main post

Completely agree with your first post regarding chain jump issues.

I was just struggling with the oil pumping - I thought it was new technology and that always facinates me.

 

[NetworkMan]

The twincharger also has an electric coolant pump for the turbocharger (V50 in SSP 359) - no air/water intercooler on this engine so just through the turbo.

I'd have thought you'd need to have a pretty slack chain to jump a tooth since the tensioner is always on the non-driven, or slack, side of the chain. Still I supposse it it's pretty long with the twin OHC......

 

[lucifer666]

I think its something that should be put in the manual because such a small thing could cause catastrophic failure should it result in the timing chain jumping. And for dealerships to have this problem after servicing just shows how against the grain draining cold oil is.

 

[lucifer666]

The twincharger also has an electric coolant pump for the turbocharger (V50 in SSP 359) - no air/water intercooler on this engine so just through the turbo.

I'd have thought you'd need to have a pretty slack chain to jump a tooth since the tensioner is always on the non-driven, or slack, side of the chain.

From what they told me, its happened to cars with no previous problems or rattling timing chains(which we know is a sign of the timing chain deteriorating with this engine)

 

[DEAN0]

I think its something that should be put in the manual because such a small thing could cause catastrophic failure should it result in the timing chain jumping. And for dealerships to have this problem after servicing just shows how against the grain draining cold oil is.

Must admit - if I had one of these engines - I would go old school oil change method.

Do the oil change - then unplug the coils and turn over the engine till I had oil pressure.

Plug coils back in and start the engine.

 

[RUM4MO]

Must admit - if I had one of these engines - I would go old school oil change method.

Do the oil change - then unplug the coils and turn over the engine till I had oil pressure.

Plug coils back in and start the engine.

But would doing that guarantee no problems?

This is a complete joke, I thought that this was only a problem with the early 1.2 3 cylinder engines! That I thought, was cured by using longer chain guides and maybe other changes.

The one thing that engines will need will be an oil change - so that task MUST be safe to do.

Edit, any old school chain tensioners I've seen have a ratchet to avoid this happening and most of them would retain their oil unless you inverted them - has VAG finally lost the plot?

 

[queen]

Every time I had an oil change I noticed that they always turn the key a few times or open the driver's door before starting the car, doesn't that help?

 

[RUM4MO]

Every time I had an oil change I noticed that they always turn the key a few times or open the driver's door before starting the car, doesn't that help?

That might work for after changing a fuel filter.

Only thing that would work, if it was possible, would be to pre-pressurise the oil galleries - before turning the engine over, but that is not possible. If the tensioners are having the same issues as earlier 1.2 3 cylinder engines, then I think that they were fitted with one way valves so that they retain oil - and so continue to support the chain, only issue was, I think, with the early 1.2 3 cylinder engines was that the one way valves leaked back so the tensioners retracted a bit and this along with the chain dampers originally being a bit too short meant that things could get a bit nasty and the chain jumped a tooth or two while the engine was being cranked.

Is any of this TSI engine chain jumping actually true or just "web forum speak" ? Sounds like I might stick with the lazy 1.4 16V motor.

 

[lucifer666]

I can assure you its not web speak as it literally has just happened to me. Car was running fine and the instant I changed the oil bam, very difficult to start which turned into complete non starting. As said this has come from TSR which are the only tuners to have rebuilt these engines. And like said they have had dealerships contacting them to find out why their cars wont start after a service. Im not saying its going to happen every time we do a hot oil change, as I have proven......it was 1out of 7 hot oil changes. It just creates an environment that allows there to be a chance of jumping. But as TSR said, no biggie, just do oil changes cold

 

[majesty78]

For most dealers/workshops it simply will not be possible to wait until the oil has cooled down completely....as the customers in most cases want their car back after 1 or 2hrs when it's in for oilchange/service....

 

[Bocawata]

I read Lucifers Thread with interest as its almost exactly what happened to me in my "Thread " in December about my Timing Chain slipping and being unable to start the car.
My incidence happened 3 days after my oil change at 44000 mile service and without any warning!!!.
but I think there was some sort of connection with the "Service".
One thing that puzzles me is I saw the chain and tensioner and was sure the tension was created by a spring and NOT hydraulic but I may be wrong as it was only a glimp,s at the offending item before they were both replaced.
I am right in also believing that the Oil Filter has a NON RETURN Valve in it as the filter is upside down compared to normal one,s and therefore you have to make sure the correct type are fitted!!! I seem to remember some one here got the wrong one from Halfords and it caused quite a bit of damage!!!!
Bocawata .

 

[lucifer666]

I think the timing chain most likely slipped during the service and then the ecu stopped it from starting eventually. It takes a few ignition cycles for the ecu to establish the timing is too far out.

Let me try and explain a little bit deeper. The chain runs on the camshaft inlet sprocket, the exhaust camshaft sprocket and the crank shaft sprocket. The tensioner is just before the inlet sprocket so when the chain is slack just before the inlet sprocket it will slip on this one rather than any of the other ones. This is a good thing as the inlet camshaft position can be adjusted with the variable valve timing to make the effect much less. This is done through the camshaft position sensor. But it gets to the stage that it still struggles to get decent timing even with the adaption. Then the ecu will not let the car start. You might find before the ecu stops the starting of the engine, the engine might idle a bit roughly but shouldn't feel that much different during driving.

On my first start, the car turned over for longer before it started, the next time it turned over for longer before starting, the next time it took a few attempts to get it to start, then finally nothing would get it to start. Almost like it took the ecu that long to figure out that timing was not fixable. I also got the code of: camshaft position sensor.....signal implausible.

The oil filter was me also! Give Halfords the part number they confirmed the car, so I fitted the filter which had the non return adaption on the filter, but as soon as I started the engine I got the oil pressure light on, and the filter was stuck on because of the pressure through it. Took me about 5 hours to get it off. Even drove a screwdriver through it to try and turn it since all other methods had failed and it tore completely through the filter 360degrees. Since then I always get my filter from seat.

 

[RUM4MO]

lucifer666 , I'm certainly not trying to "poo poo" your comments about this happening, what I was or am trying to do is to provoke open discussion about this possiblility as by doing that, the message might get out to the open world and that should make VAG wake up and sort it out, including some retro action for those still in the VAG dealership service loop.

I'm not suggesting that you were getting grumpy about my previous posting, I'm just making it clear to all what I hope to achieve potentially for myself and others, ie reduce the future risk of disaster.

I'm still on the previous range of VAG cars but will eventually move on, so I'm keen to know what I'm walking into, maybe that means I should grab one of the last of the 1.4 16V 85PS engine cars for my wife's next runaround, and live in the past with that engines ways of doing things.

 

[DEAN0]

and live in the past with that engines ways of doing things.

There is a lot to be said for this train of thought nowdays. ( I am leaning the same way )

There seems to be such an obsession with making the newer engines more and more stressed ( smaller engines with more power )

In the quest for claimed efficiency / eco status - the basics of true engineering reliability seem to be getting overlooked/ignored.

 

[RUM4MO]

There is a lot to be said for this train of thought nowdays. ( I am leaning the same way )

There seems to be such an obsession with making the newer engines more and more stressed ( smaller engines with more power )

In the quest for claimed efficiency / eco status - the basics of true engineering reliability seem to be getting overlooked/ignored.

Exactly, low CO2 out the back = low "road tax" = what everyone wants - yes, but reliability in real world use has to be taken as being there, or improved.

These national and international trade bodies, and companies like PD Powers, have a lot to answer for in the way car manufacturers behave, ie what they get off with. Having said that, there have been huge leaps and bounds made in engine reliability - followed by madness that costs owner dear. Beans counter versus engineers I'd think, but I'm a bit biased there being one of the latter!!