Tuned 2002 Cupra purchase. Help please! :)

[marky911]

Hi guys,
I'm new here but haven't posted a thread in the newbie bit as I'm a bit pushed for time tonight and some of the threads don't seem to get many responses.

I'm looking to buy a car from a friend as a daily hack and occassional track day car. It's modded quite a bit which isn't something I'm massively into so just wanted your thoughts please on if you think it'll go pop anytime soon.

It's a red 2002 Cupra (not R). Reg L333 ONN.


I've been trying to post a pic of the car and a list of mods/prices but photobucket is playing up!

The jist of it is £20K spent over the years. Mods include :-

Forge front mount intercooler.
Revo stage 2.
Exhaust
It first had a GT28RS turbo now has a K04S KKK or something...
550 injectors
Tarox 10 pots on the front
Fabia VRS brakes on the rear
Carbonio cold air intake

Has just made 305BHP on the rollers.

111,000 miles.

The list goes on and on.

Basically my questions are :

1) Is this over tuned? I've heard the Cupra's internals aren't as strong as the Cupra R's.

2) Is it worth £4k?
Obviously £4k gets a nice Cupra R with better engine internals. Am I better off starting with a remapped one of these?
Thing is I will not be tuning any car further than how it arrives. I'm not into that really. It will be maintained regardless of cost but I'm too busy with other things to tune my daily car. In which case this Cupra is tempting, as it's all done for me.

Cheers anyone! Pics will follow when photobucket behaves itself.
Mark.

 

[Steely]

I cant understand why its gone from a G28 to an inferior k04

and with a ko4 it will not be running over 300 BHP thats g28 territory

 

[02CuPrA]

I think I remember reading LC can go to 350bhp without changing internals, and LCR can go to 450BHP? Not sure if that's right tho. Plus it's front wheel drive, so hope you have money for tyres.

 

[marky911]

Hi lads thanks for the replys,

Steely - I haven't a clue about what turbos are what but there are printouts from a half decent RR centre stating 304BHP/295lbft. I don't know why it would go to a worse turbo either, if it has.
It had an ATP GT28RS in Oct' 07 then the Ko4S KKK in '09. Who knows but it's made more power at every step of its development.

Hi 02 cupra - Yep it does get through fronts, haha. I've usually a rule of only driving RWD, BMs etc but this car is very clean and is perfect for its expected use. A max of 350 ish sounds ok then if it's only 300, or not even that. Thanks.

Franny - Had a quick look but I'm not registered on there so couldn't find your car. To be honest I set out looking at 306 Rallyes and Civic Type Rs but, I know this Seat, so that counts for a lot when buying a car. Thanks though.

 

[Steely]

Its an odd one,

the ko4 is a stock turbo on 225 bam engines, it cannot push 300bhp on a 1.8t unless its had hybrid work, i dont mean to be a sceptic, more just being honest, the gt28 will outperform a k04 and break the 300bhp barrier with ease, base line being 325-330

do you have any more info on this engine??

plus if you do run over 290-300 lb ft you'll run the risk of throwing a con rod, find out if its had H/I beam conrods , the stock auq lump runs 19mm wristpins, where as the bam runs 20mm , the pistons are forged on both engines, the rods are cast,

any more info on the engine internals?

 

[marky911]

As yet I have very little info on the engine really. Like I say it's a mates car who has owned it about a year and added the VRS rear brake setup.

The info will be there as there are loads of receipts, etc. My mate is a mechanic and runs a Porsche Indy. All his cars are usually very good and very reliable. He's about to fit a new turbo gasket and a couple of other bits and bobs so it won't be ready for a few weeks.

I'll get more info next time I see him. He's 60 miles away though so that may not be this weekend.

Don't worry about sounding sceptical. I appreciate the advice. Sorry I don't have more info. I sound like a bloody idiot, when infact I'm a massive petrolhead. I'm usually bang into the specs and everything of whatever it is I'm looking to buy, but unfortunately the VAG scene is about the only scene i haven't ever really been in to.

I'll update as soon as I know more. You think though if it is running anywhere near those figures without internal mods, it's a ticking time bomb?

I know the gearbox had £3k's worth of work but that could just have been a rebuild to stock.

I just tried to add a link to youtube but can't yet. If you go on youtube and type "Ragging my Leon at Goodwood"

That's the car with the lad my mate bought it from. We don't use words like "ragging"

 

[Dan1720v]

First thing you need to do is rods if they're not done. Rods like all other things wear, and get weaker with time. Worth £4k, depends if it's had the right bits and pieces. If its got rods, and it's had a new belt etc all stuff that you'd she'll out for doing rods, yes, providing its MINT. You can pick a good LCR up for £3k now, £1500 and you'll have rods, FMIC, Exhaust, and a map which will see the right side of 280.

 

[Dan1720v]

You read wrong.

 

[shnazzle]

Well, I'm sure it CAN.... Life expectancy of internals may be ever so slightly reduced though

Personally I wouldn't.
Having said that, if you have evidence that every part of the cars systems
matches its power... why not I suppose. Assuming its tip-top in order, 4k seems fair.

It's just a lot of power out of that turbo...

 

[traumapat]

You read wrong.

Sorry, your wrong check my sig


BUT.... it has to mapped well. Gt28 would have been the better turbo as its less likely to produce torque spike that will bend rods to make the power. If its a hybrid k04 its more prone to spikes.

Its not the final bhp/lbsft figures that matter, its more how the powers managed by the map and how hard/hot the turbo needs to run to make the power.

With a very modified set up such as the OP its worth getting it to a decent independent vag tuner and getting the mapping checked. Why was the GT28 removed? Who mapped it?

Nice video BTW

 

[Dan1720v]

its gopt a little bit to do with spikes. However, cylinder pressures are what create power, hogh cyl pressures = more downward force = more torque.

What are your actual figures? Maf reading? Wheel figures? Rolling losses?

 

[traumapat]

As said figures in my sig. Its a VF23 running 1.5 bar. Not sure why you want the other info?

EDIT: http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=342472&page=2
post 21 has my dyno if it helps

 

[Dan1720v]

Well the Jabba print out there says 207@ the wheels. You've therefore got over 100bhp rolling losses?? On the lower graph. The upper one is unreadable on my phone.

 

[traumapat]

Well the Jabba print out there says 207@ the wheels. You've therefore got over 100bhp rolling losses?? On the lower graph. The upper one is unreadable on my phone.

Well you need a better phone
Your looking at stage 2 map on the k03s. The dyno you cant read is the IHI one.

 

[Steely]

As yet I have very little info on the engine really. Like I say it's a mates car who has owned it about a year and added the VRS rear brake setup.

The info will be there as there are loads of receipts, etc. My mate is a mechanic and runs a Porsche Indy. All his cars are usually very good and very reliable. He's about to fit a new turbo gasket and a couple of other bits and bobs so it won't be ready for a few weeks.

I'll get more info next time I see him. He's 60 miles away though so that may not be this weekend.

Don't worry about sounding sceptical. I appreciate the advice. Sorry I don't have more info. I sound like a bloody idiot, when infact I'm a massive petrolhead. I'm usually bang into the specs and everything of whatever it is I'm looking to buy, but unfortunately the VAG scene is about the only scene i haven't ever really been in to.

I'll update as soon as I know more. You think though if it is running anywhere near those figures without internal mods, it's a ticking time bomb?

I know the gearbox had £3k's worth of work but that could just have been a rebuild to stock.

I just tried to add a link to youtube but can't yet. If you go on youtube and type "Ragging my Leon at Goodwood"

That's the car with the lad my mate bought it from. We don't use words like "ragging"

Nah its not to worry, SCN's there to give advise in situs like this,

As for the conrods,

Its more how the power its developed, low torque and high top end bhp wouldnt so much be a problem, its more low rev torque spikes that bend rods ( which to be fair are the only main weakpoint on the 1.8t, pistons are good for 400+ but the chocolate made conrods about 280-300 LB FT, DannyLaD & murderedLCR have both killed conrods on stock k04's with stg1/2 modifications,

Id be watching the Torque output more than looking at the end result BHP if is on stock rods,

It'd be nice to see whats been done to it, Whether its the 180 (auq etc) lump or stronger 225 (bam etc)

As soon as you get a bit more info on the car get the spec up !

 

[cuprastoffs]

10 pot fronts.

Sounds the dogs. Do you know it that's a 3 inch system?

 

[truCido]

10 pot fronts.

indeed!! overkill!!

 

[marky911]

Evenin' gents, I've had a mega busy day and replying on my phone isn't ideal. Really appreciate all the input. I can see I have a bit to learn.

Rang my mate today at lunchtime and got a bit more info. Basically the engine internals are untouched and obviously have 111,000 miles on them now.
The advert he seen it for sale in was only two lines long and basically said Seat Leon 300BHP. My mate was the only person to actually turn up in person to view it, the seller said all he'd had uptil then were people saying "It can't be 300BHP!" haha. I can see why, now you lads have explained the turbo options etc, but there is a folder full of dyno runs at various places and at various stages of the cars development.

The story with the turbos is this...
He bought the 28 and at just over a year old it blew. Impellor shaft or something? Being just out of warranty the guy was pretty unimpressed to say the least so opted for the Ko4S. Not sure if it's a hybrid. Will need to go through the file at a later date.

It's frustrating as I have a spreadsheet of all the mods and costs but can't get photobucket to work. Here are a few more details from the list.

2005 Coil packs and plugs £170
2005 Fuel pressure regulator £50
2005 Revo stage 1 £586
2005 Revo stage 2 + Milltek cat £504
2006 Supersprint cat back exhaust. £400
2006 Forge turbo intake hose £150
2006 Supply and fit Forge FM intercooler £800
2006 Performance inlet gasket upgrade and service £420
2006 ATP turbo manifold £311
2006 RS alloys £600
2006 Koni + Eibach susp. upgrade £515 also anti-roll bars.
2007 550cc injectors £400
2007 ATP GT28RS turbo £1900
2007 Fit turbo and Revo stage 3 £1400
2007 Tarox 10 pot brakes inc. spacers £2166
2008 Sachs performance clutch £977
2008 Recondition Gearbox and fit clutch £2900!!
2008 Maf meter + housing £95
2008 Carbonio air filter element £68
2008 Coil packs and plugs £271
2009 Boost gauge £65
2009 Poly bushes and health check £270
2009 Ko4S KKK turbo install £2140
2010 Dog bone engine mount £70
2010 Carbonio cold air intake £220
2010 Bailey dumpvalve £95

Those are mainly mods above. There are loads of other items of general servicing inc. cambelt, stone chips blown in, new windscreen, etc, and it also now has Skoda VRS rear brake setup which my mate has added.

Over £20,000 in total although I'm not sure how exagerrated the above prices are. I've rounded them up/down a tiny bit for quickness when listing. They aren't all round numbers, eg made up.

Anyway:-

Dan - As above, rods are stock we believe. I agree about the CTR being had for £3k plus a bit for parts to get 270BHP but looking at the brakes, etc this car has had an awful lot of time, money and love. Still weighing up other options though. Thanks.

Schnazzle - Yep, it could always go pop especially with 111k on it but it is a lovely car and how much can a used motor cost? I'm happy with the risk I think. I've got a few weeks to decide but think I'll get it.

Traumapat - Glad you posted! Looking at your figures makes it look do-able on stock internals, so cheers. Will definitely get the car on the rollers as soon as I get it, with someone good.

Steely - Hi again. Just a Cupra so my mate reckons deffo just on the 180bhp engine originally. I'll go right through the paperwork when I get it and see.

Cuprastoffs - You know as much as me now from the list above. Milltek cat with Supersprint system. I'll let you know once I get the car if you like. A few weeks yet.

truCido - Love your project. Your cage looks very good! I'd love to gut this Leon but the joy of it is at the moment, it's a do anything car. Perfectly fine for daily use but great on track with the shocks wound up a bit, hence I'll probably leave the trim in.

Overkill indeed regarding the brakes but my mate says they just do not fade! so I'm not going to grumble that they're on there. Plus it's not exactly a light car in it's full fat trim.

Blimey! Sorry for the essay lads.
In summary I'll say I'm pretty much going to buy it. Once I do I'll get it straight to somewhere good. I'm up in Newcastle upon Tyne but am prepared to do an overnighter and stop near Jabbasport if they're the best? Anyone nearer the North?

If the engine goes bang I'm in the AA and I will then stick a used engine in or have a proper one built. Hopefully by that time I'll know if I've gelled with the car and will know what road to take with it.

Anyway, thanks again for the help. Obviously some very knowledgable chaps on here.

 

[traumapat]

Massively biased but id say jabba down to personal experience. They have done alot of conversions so your in safe hands. 111 is a fair few miles so its worth considering rods at some point.
KO4s/hybrid at 300bhp is rod bending territory so its orth getting the map checked. Pity theres no GT on it as it would produce that with much less effort.

Are the inlet and outlet on the same side of the intercooler or oppersite?

 

[Steely]

Barring the turbo issue , as long as it's being completed to a good standard, it looks a good package !

That's one he'll of a lot of car for the money, even At 4/5k get the rods done and it's practically
350+ ready,

Mileage I wouldn't really worry over , they're 250k + engines with ease if maintained. At very worse you could strip it and make more money than you paid for it!