WMI Nozzle location

[rsmith]

Hey all,

Still planning my WMI install, i know a few of you guys have installed WMI. Most people recommend to mount the nozzle just after the cold side IC pipe to give it a chance to cool the charge air further and let the water/meth atomise. I have no problem with this and understand how it works.

My concern is that i have a DV relocation kit, so my DV is connected to the boost pipe going to the TB, will i vent water/meth back into my turbo via the DV relocation pipe when ever i dump boost, i imagine i would. Would this cause problems to my turbo?

I called Devils own today and ran this by them, i don't really think they understood the setup i have though and there advise was to mount the nozzle about 6inches from the IAT sensor.

Would it be a problem if i did it this way, it would make the installation alot easier.

Any advise would be appreciated as i am 50/50 on where to mount the nozzle.

Thanks

P.S This is the Devil's own Stage 2 kit.

 

[DannyC87]

Hey all,

Still planning my WMI install, i know a few of you guys have installed WMI. Most people recommend to mount the nozzle just after the cold side IC pipe to give it a chance to cool the charge air further and let the water/meth atomise. I have no problem with this and understand how it works.

My concern is that i have a DV relocation kit, so my DV is connected to the boost pipe going to the TB, will i vent water/meth back into my turbo via the DV relocation pipe when ever i dump boost, i imagine i would. Would this cause problems to my turbo?

I called Devils own today and ran this by them, i don't really think they understood the setup i have though and there advise was to mount the nozzle about 6inches from the IAT sensor.

Would it be a problem if i did it this way, it would make the installation alot easier.

Any advise would be appreciated as i am 50/50 on where to mount the nozzle.

Thanks

P.S This is the Devil's own Stage 2 kit.

Mine is mounted around 6 inches before the IAT as shown below:

I have had no problems with this, correction factors are even across all cylinders suggesting that I am getting good atomisation, and I am successfully advancing an additional 6* running a 40% mix on a relatively small nozzle.

 

[rsmith]

Mine is mounted around 6 inches before the IAT as shown below:

I have had no problems with this, correction factors are even across all cylinders suggesting that I am getting good atomisation, and I am successfully advancing an additional 6* running a 40% mix on a relatively small nozzle.

Thanks for that Danny but how do you know if you are getting good atomisation or not? Does the car bog down or something?
What nozzle are you running i was thinking a D03/D04? I was thinking on starting with the D03 and then progressing to the D04.

 

[DannyC87]

Thanks for that Danny but how do you know if you are getting good atomisation or not? Does the car bog down or something?
What nozzle are you running i was thinking a D03/D04? I was thinking on starting with the D03 and then progressing to the D04.

I am running the medium nozzle from the AEM set, can't remember the number, will check tomorrow. I would have thought if atomisation was not good there would be an uneven distribution of WM in each cylinder giving a variance in CFs across the cylinders?

 

[rsmith]

I am running the medium nozzle from the AEM set, can't remember the number, will check tomorrow. I would have thought if atomisation was not good there would be an uneven distribution of WM in each cylinder giving a variance in CFs across the cylinders?

I am not sure, but when i was speaking to DO today, they said it should be fine, think of the temps inside there, water would evaporate fairly quick, i am more worried about pooling, again though i just think i am being a worry wort.

I can't wait to get this kit installed, its been in the garage for a week now niggling at me.

 

[james walker]

im too looking at this... rs could you linky me the kit you have please??

i have a aluminium pipe from fmic to throttle body.... how could i tap into that for the nozzle?

 

[ibizacupra]

Hey all,

Still planning my WMI install, i know a few of you guys have installed WMI. Most people recommend to mount the nozzle just after the cold side IC pipe to give it a chance to cool the charge air further and let the water/meth atomise. I have no problem with this and understand how it works.

My concern is that i have a DV relocation kit, so my DV is connected to the boost pipe going to the TB, will i vent water/meth back into my turbo via the DV relocation pipe when ever i dump boost, i imagine i would. Would this cause problems to my turbo?

I called Devils own today and ran this by them, i don't really think they understood the setup i have though and there advise was to mount the nozzle about 6inches from the IAT sensor.

Would it be a problem if i did it this way, it would make the installation alot easier.

Any advise would be appreciated as i am 50/50 on where to mount the nozzle.

Thanks

P.S This is the Devil's own Stage 2 kit.

no it wont

cold side dv is fine..
think about how the system works..
only sprays under boost.. DV only opens and vents on lift off, off boost

mount it close to the fmic outlet for the reasons you already explained yourself.

remember 50-50 mix is flammable

 

[james walker]

so is 50/50 not adviseable bill or are you saying mount away from high heat source due to this?

could the nozzle be tapped into ally pipework bill?

 

[rsmith]

im too looking at this... rs could you linky me the kit you have please??

i have a aluminium pipe from fmic to throttle body.... how could i tap into that for the nozzle?

Hi James, i got this kit http://www.alcohol-injection.com/dvc-30-stage-2-305.html, i also bought a mouting nozzle, you can just do a simply tap into the alloy pipe and in the nozzle.

no it wont

cold side dv is fine..
think about how the system works..
only sprays under boost.. DV only opens and vents on lift off, off boost

mount it close to the fmic outlet for the reasons you already explained yourself.

remember 50-50 mix is flammable

Thanks Bill, my FMIC setup only has a 57-63mm 45c silicon elbow off the IC, placing the nozzle will be a PITA for where i want it.

Thanks for confirming though, i just wanted to be sure no water/meth will find its way back into the turbo.

Also i will be running 40/60 mix to be safe.

so is 50/50 not adviseable bill or are you saying mount away from high heat source due to this?

could the nozzle be tapped into ally pipework bill?

James, this stuff is nasty ass stuff, read the label, its also burns clear in its natural form.
Care must be taking with it, i am bricking it about having to mix up the stuff.

 

[Willie]

When we use methanol offshore we place salt bags around this so if it does burn you will be able to see and hear the salt burning.
Perhaps a bit OTT for you operation but a thought if you want to cover all angles

 

[rsmith]

When we use methanol offshore we place salt bags around this so if it does burn you will be able to see and hear the salt burning.
Perhaps a bit OTT for you operation but a thought if you want to cover all angles

Thats a good idea, i hate evening having the stuff near the house, especially with the little fellow being into everything.I ended up putting it in a secure location 30ft from the house.

 

[Willie]

Thats a good idea, i hate evening having the stuff near the house, especially with the little fellow being into everything.I ended up putting it in a secure location 30ft from the house.

For little boys this would be a very fun toy.

Get a wooden box, fit padlock, job done

 

[DannyC87]

Thats a good idea, i hate evening having the stuff near the house, especially with the little fellow being into everything.I ended up putting it in a secure location 30ft from the house.

I mix it up at the point of collection. I buy 20 litres, take two 25litre drum with me with 15litres of water in each, split the purchased methanol into the two containers before transporting.

 

[Robbie C]

lol, obviously I am too laid back. I typically store 25 litres of methanol in the back of my garage just in the standard container and mix this stuff up with de-ionised water in my kitchen I think it's just a matter of common sense though really

Bill - is this flammable _at_ 50:50 or anything _over_ 50:50 mix? Or is it flammable even at 60:40 water/meth but less volatile?

 

[ibizacupra]

so is 50/50 not adviseable bill or are you saying mount away from high heat source due to this?

could the nozzle be tapped into ally pipework bill?

depends on what you want to do with the wmi..
when i first used it i ran 10-20% meth and used it purely to help cool intake charge making no adjustments to timing to make use of the meth contribution.

i moved to 50/50 mix to gain some octane benefit from the meth, and cooling, and was able to add timing. (12 degrees of it on my Me7 ecu when I ran all this stuff originally)

so choice of mix ratio is up to you and what you want wmi to do for you.

the normal ally pipework is'nt thick enough to tap, and the o ring wont sit square to seal.
i weld a small pre-tapped boss onto the pipes and use that instead

 

[ibizacupra]

lol, obviously I am too laid back. I typically store 25 litres of methanol in the back of my garage just in the standard container and mix this stuff up with de-ionised water in my kitchen I think it's just a matter of common sense though really

Bill - is this flammable _at_ 50:50 or anything _over_ 50:50 mix? Or is it flammable even at 60:40 water/meth but less volatile?

50/50 burns when you light it
i have'nt tried other ratios (yet)

burns colourless also... so no flame, but burning

 

[Robbie C]

Off topic slightly but reading into this a little further I'm not sure I understand what relative benefits water has over methanol, i.e. why not just run a 100% methanol mix?

Is it because water is capable of absorbing more heat _inside_ the combustion chamber whereas methanol can only evaporate to a lower temperature on the inlet track as it atomizes?

Methanol has a high octane rating of 116 to reduce the onset of detonation and adds fuel into the mixture, hence more potential power can be safely released through ignition advance.

But... while water itself has no octane rating it does effectively increase the rating of the mixture by cooling intake temps and absorbing heat in the combustion chamber, correct? Therefore, it should be possible to see power some gains from even a 100% water mix?

So, I guess I'm wondering what are the relative pros and cons of water vs methanol? What does one do that the other doesn't.

The Water vs Meth thread on http://www.waterinjection.info/ raises some interesting points of consideration too, i.e.

The maximum amount of methanol to mix with water is 50% by mass, any more than this makes the mixture more knock prone. The mixing of methanol in with water can allow ignition limited set up or boost fixed set ups to have a low loss in power with very high increase in knock resistance. The more water you can run is always better, but each set up is slightly different as are peoples situations too, so its a case by case thing.

I appreciate using methanol introduces an extra fuel source but in my instance, Bill has mapped the car running WMI with no fuel adjustments. It's running "on top" (effectively as a safe-gaurd for track use), while still allowing me to advance the ignition timing to make more power.

What I'm wondering here is, as the extra fuelling added by the methanol hasn't been mapped into consideration (effectively meaning I'm running rich to safegaurd against any lean incidents) then would I notice any difference by running 100% water? I'd be running more lean, but would CFs be affected if the water was still keeping temps down?

All of the above is also ignoring the flammable risk of running 100% methanol, and whether the pump etc can withstand the chemical composition long-term.

Loads of questions there, just a bit of a brain dump!

 

[Robbie C]

Reading that back to myself I think I've hinted on the answer in my own questions, i.e. it's a case-by-case basis for what works for your car and how it's setup.

In my case I'm assuming the WMI has been added "on top" of the map with a recommended mix of 50:50 water/methanol as a safegaurd to ensure I'm running a little rich on WOT rather than lean. The methanol is the fuel source that keeps the mixture rich, while both the water AND methanol contribute to the overall octane boost achieved that allows me to advance the ignition timing offset for more power.


EDIT: OK So continued reading suggests that water is better at cooling inside the combustion chamber, helping prevent knock whereas methanol is more capable of reducing IATs - so obviously there's a balance.

In my case though I'm beginning to wonder if I'm better off running a higher concentration of water to methanol (i.e. 60:40) as I'm not reliant on the extra fueling the methanol offers? From the waterinjection.info forum:

Yeah, for pure intercooling meth is preferable.
Water is not very good at reducing charge temps, it's 5-10C reduction if you're lucky, usually less.

For chargecooling in the cylinders (during the compression stroke) water is preferable. It does away with the need to run rich under boost.
This effect you can only see with a knock detector though, not intake temp gauge.

If this is true, then am I not better off with a more concentrated water mix to minimise CFs against the offset of my ignition advance?

I.e. is water more effective at preventing knock than the octane properties of the methanol alone?

Maybe logging IATs vs CFs to find an optimal balance is the key here?

 

[rsmith]

On a side note, for ease of installation and untill i get my Alloy IC piping custom made, i am just gonna bung it on the upper boost hose, it will also give me easy access for testing different noozles, when i am happy and have my IC piping converted to full alloy with as little silicon as possible i will move it to the coldside.

I don't think it should cause any problems where it mounted, DO list it as a valid mouting point on there website.

This just a tester, i had a spare(leaky) uppper boost hose.

Danny how did you drive your hole, the forge stuff is a bit'ch to drill cause of the 4ply.

 

[DannyC87]

On a side note, for ease of installation and untill i get my Alloy IC piping custom made, i am just gonna bung it on the upper boost hose, it will also give me easy access for testing different noozles, when i am happy and have my IC piping converted to full alloy with as little silicon as possible i will move it to the coldside.

I don't think it should cause any problems where it mounted, DO list it as a valid mouting point on there website.

This just a tester, i had a spare(leaky) uppper boost hose.

Danny how did you drive your hole, the forge stuff is a bit'ch to drill cause of the 4ply.

Small drill bit and then a junior hacksaw blade... PITA to do!