GT28RS = No POWER , Help please

[ian_cupra]

surely if your turbo isnt spooling up your going to overfuel anyway, causing alot of un burnt fuel past through the exhaust side of the turbo?? hence fuel smell, maybe

 

[Andy Cotton1]

Good point !
Can't see how the fuel's getting in the oil anway - in the cylinder ? if I am getting that much blow by then it wouldn't make the power would it ? I think it's pass the buck time !

I need to talk to the tuners before I go down another rabbit hole.

 

[stewbie55]

My guess is that the original lack of a oil pressure restrictor goosed the bearing seals and then despite correcting this the compromised lubrication of the bearings due to damaged seals lead to their eventual failure.
While I'm no expert I don't buy turbo dynamics description of a plastic race - maybe they're talking about the seals?

Whilst wastegate cracking tends to indicate overheating it's a very common on any high output turbo car when driven hard unless it's very conservatively mapped.

 

[Andy Cotton1]

Well when I say plastic I mean high temperature Nylon.

I spoke to Universal Turbos about my problem and he said, bearing in mind we did not know the failure of my turbo at this point, that the Cosworth Boys went over to ball bearing turbos and they had the same problems although they were running massive power and boost.

They to were not happy with the turbo bearing cage basically breaking up. They replaced the nylon cage with a brass affair and had no further problems - T3 range ??

Maybe this is the way to go. By the way my car isn't running massive boost or power and when I had the failure the car was cruising at 60mph !

 

[ibizacupra]

you may recall me talking about these bearing races being plastic and failing...
it is not a coincidence my gt35 runs uprated metal caged bearings done for me by owens

heat/boost are 2 common reasons given to explain the failure i believe

 

[DPJ]

you may recall me talking about these bearing races being plastic and failing...
it is not a coincidence my gt35 runs uprated metal caged bearings done for me by owens

heat/boost are 2 common reasons given to explain the failure i believe

Do they completely replace the Garrett bearing cartridge, Bill, or do they hybridise it?

 

[Andy Cotton1]

Bill, I am talking to Owens at the Mo.

What are my options ? does the GT2871 have the same set up or can I upgrade the bearing cage material with metal type ?

I guess your turbo had a nylon cage at some point - did you have any failures

 

[ibizacupra]

Bill, I am talking to Owens at the Mo.

What are my options ? does the GT2871 have the same set up or can I upgrade the bearing cage material with metal type ?

I guess your turbo had a nylon cage at some point - did you have any failures

Owens will sort you out I'm sure.
Mine never had a failure, I bought it new, then had it rebuilt by Owens with their motorsport bearings because I was advised of garrett GT failures because of this moulded bearing cage. I raced with/against mark @ owens, and he has been extremely helpful in advising on such things. They race, they know what fails.

 

[Ibiza sport man]

Andy, I think it would be worth your while to fit a pump to the turbo water cooling circuit that runs on for say 10 minutes after the engine has stopped. Pretty sure Karl has put this feature into the latest version of the ECU. You could get yours updated.

 

[Andy Cotton1]

Probably a good idea, have you got a diagram you can post showing water circuit etc....

Is the idea to keep the water flowing through it to keep the oil from leaving carbon deposits during cooldown - bearing in mind there is no oil flowing either ?

Do you know what the Emerald K3 can drive in terms or current, do I need to wire in a relay etc.....actually might still have one from that 2nd fuel pump that I don't use.

 

[Ibiza sport man]

No haven't got a diagram, just put it in the pipe that comes from the bottom of the block and feeds the turbo. The idea is to keep the turbo bearing area well below coking temps by eliminating heat soak when the engine has stopped.

The Emerald can drive a few amps load directly but a relay is much safer.

 

[Andy Cotton1]

Spoke to Owens today - they have heard of this bearing race breaking up before but only on Motorsport turbos.

They can provide a GT2871 with 0.64 housing, which is more suited to the TT engine, rather than the GT 2860 with 0.84 housing and they are going to build it with a metal bearing cage like yours Bill.

Bill, can you tell me where your Turbo coolant return pipe connects to please, currently mine connects to the metal coolant return pipe on the block just under the I/L manifold - if I compare this with the orig TT water flow diagram, the TT goes back to the flow towards the radiator via an electric pump.

I'm wondering if it more sensible to connect my coolant return to the head outlet / flow to the Rad without the electric pump. I'm just wodering if this is the source of my problems. The only thing I can't get my head around isif I do this how will water flow if the thermostat is closed ?

 

[Ianb]

Putting in a brass bearing cage assembly is something I was recommended by Owen's on my GT28RS when I rebuilt my Golf engine.

Something I may consider doing at the present as I'm replacing the gasket, studs and fixings on my DP outlet....got a blow from that area.

Taking turbo off so I may contact Owens or TD for a price..quite reasonable from memory.

You can buy a brand new core assembly in any case Andy from Turbo Dynamics....maybe worth getting them to fit the brass bearing assembly if they can.

 

[Andy Cotton1]

Cost of a new core is over £550+ VAT (quote from TD) and then the wastegate is still cracked. Owens want £750 for the GT2871 with 0.64 housing which is more suited to that engine - all in all a re-firb of the old unit is almost the price of a brand new one (owens quoting £700 for the GT2860RS) - it's just not cost effective.
Also - I'm not sure I want to give TD any more business they were too quick to slope shoulders and blame my engine set up - they are not all that helpful and don't appear to be half as knowledgeable than Owens.

It's a Chicken and egg for my problem, I can't disprove TD theory until I get a new unit bolted on. I am going to modify the exhaust for EGT feedback into the ECU as well.

I just need to solve the problem for my turbo coolant return pipe - as a matter of interest where's does yours feed back to ?

Owens charge £300 extra for the metal cage upgrade.

 

[DPJ]

BB Service

Ball Bearing Service Program

Garrett takes great pride in the quality of its turbochargers and tests them extensively. However, sometimes the unthinkable happens and a turbo fails. Garrett now provides the option to exchange a failed or used CHRA for credit on a new CHRA at an affordable price!

The program requires you take the following steps:

1. Make sure your unit is covered by the program by checking the Ball Bearing service link below.
2. Send your used CHRA* to one of Garrett's Performance Distributors for inspection.
3. Purchase a new CHRA at a discounted price!

"*At a minimum, the center housing must be re-usable to qualify for this program. The Garrett Performance Distributor will determine the condition upon receiving the CHRA and has final say in the applicability of a CHRA for this program."

Owens is a Garrett Performance Distributor.

 

[Andy Cotton1]

Thanks Dave - I am sure that because the Turbo was re-worked by TD it would probably not qualify for the service, wish I had known about this a ear ago though.

Andy

 

[DPJ]

Garrett make big claims about their BB Cartridges....

Proven performance Garrett's ball bearing cartridge has proven its worth in the highest level of motorsports where it has been the bearing system of choice in CART FEDEX ChampCar Series, 24 Hours of Le Mans, Pikes Peak International Hill Climb, World Rally Championship, and most recently Drag Racing. These premier racing customers demand no less than the best in durability, reliability, and power on demand. One key contributor to this performance lies in the ball bearing cartridge where it is, by design, surrounded by a thin film of oil. The oil film damps out destructive vibrations that would otherwise compromise turbo durability. A clear demonstration of the inherent superiority of Garrett's ball bearing design is in the launch of a turbocharged drag race car. The two-step rev limiters used to build boost on the line expose the turbo to the harshest imaginable conditions of pressure spikes and scorching temperatures. Where lesser turbos often fail catastrophically, Garrett ball bearing turbos regularly shrug off these brutal conditions time after time. In fact, many drag racers running Garrett ball bearing turbos have not needed to rebuild or replace their turbos for multiple seasons. Can you say that about your turbo?

It got me thinking that for most applications, it does the job and that in most circumstances, an upgrade would be unnecessary. But, I can't believe that Owens are doing the upgrades without Garrett's knowledge......

 

[ibizacupra]

run them too hard and too hot and they will fall apart literally..
ask james how he nuked some on his powerful octavia... big boost, dead turbo, went like stink, but also eat its bearings. found the limit a coupel of times.

its a known failure mode on gt garretts

 

[Andy Cotton1]

Mine wasn't running big power or big boost however I am warming to the fact Heat soak may have caused it's demise.

I am thinking of installing a pump to circulate cooland for 15mins after shut off, has anyone got one installed ? where does it fit ? in line with the water supply to the turbo ?