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Andy Cotton1
Guest
Happy to listen to suggestions V's Cost !
It's a std BAM Motor with SCAT rods. I have an AEB head in the garage sitting on the bench for re-work.
It's a std BAM Motor with SCAT rods. I have an AEB head in the garage sitting on the bench for re-work.
for a little more a GT2871R on small 0.63 housing, or small GT30R again on small housing..
For more than one failure tho is there something amiss with the oil line or drain from the turbo?
For more than one failure tho is there something amiss with the oil line or drain from the turbo?
Andy Cotton1
Guest
Mmmmmmmm I know what you mean. All the pipes have been custom made, the oil feed is braided hose with a turbo pre-filter and oil restrictor. I measured the Oil Press and all is good (new oil pump), I turned the engine over without starting and oil gushed out of the end - which is a good thing. Not much else to check really - I'm happy I'm feeding it with Motul V300 as well. Unless something has broken inside and restricting the oil somehow - I won't know until it's been taken appart.
As for the return, it's 1/2" bore ! can't believe that oil won't pass through it but I need to inspect it once the turbo is off.......which will be the weekend.
Can anyone recommend a turbo supplier if I have to buy new ? been quoted £800 for a new one (GT28RS).
As for the return, it's 1/2" bore ! can't believe that oil won't pass through it but I need to inspect it once the turbo is off.......which will be the weekend.
Can anyone recommend a turbo supplier if I have to buy new ? been quoted £800 for a new one (GT28RS).
for a little more a GT2871R on small 0.63 housing, or small GT30R again on small housing..
For more than one failure tho is there something amiss with the oil line or drain from the turbo?
I was going to ask if it was fitted with an oil pressure restrictor.........
Andy Cotton1
Guest
I'm in discussions with Owens at the Mo.
a bit of history regarding this turbo, Origionally supplied by Backdraft without an oil restrictor - I used the car for approx 8K miles without a problem then it started to blow blue smoke on the overrun at very low rpm.
After doing a bit of research I found that these turbos require an oil retrictor depending on the oil pressure measured at the turbo. When I measured the oil P it qualified for an oil restrictor.
I'm not sure if using the turbo without one was one of the causes of it's early problems or not. Anyway, the turbo was rebuilt by Turbo Dynamics where some machining was required for new seals and bearings...........however this turbo has only lasted 3K miles and it cost over £500 for the repairs. I'm not sure what problems I have now but it has to go back to TD for analysis - I'm hoping fore some good will if it's component failure .............we'll see.
As far as the car goes, the turbo lived in a good home, using good oil (changed every 4K), adequate cooling, turbo pre-filter etc.....but for some reason or other the car's eaten another one.
a bit of history regarding this turbo, Origionally supplied by Backdraft without an oil restrictor - I used the car for approx 8K miles without a problem then it started to blow blue smoke on the overrun at very low rpm.
After doing a bit of research I found that these turbos require an oil retrictor depending on the oil pressure measured at the turbo. When I measured the oil P it qualified for an oil restrictor.
I'm not sure if using the turbo without one was one of the causes of it's early problems or not. Anyway, the turbo was rebuilt by Turbo Dynamics where some machining was required for new seals and bearings...........however this turbo has only lasted 3K miles and it cost over £500 for the repairs. I'm not sure what problems I have now but it has to go back to TD for analysis - I'm hoping fore some good will if it's component failure .............we'll see.
As far as the car goes, the turbo lived in a good home, using good oil (changed every 4K), adequate cooling, turbo pre-filter etc.....but for some reason or other the car's eaten another one.
how aggressive is the mapping? do you have egt measurement? too retarded an ignition and it will be hot hot
std gt's run injection moulded bearing race carriers, which are the parts which fail when overheated and/or cooked
std gt's run injection moulded bearing race carriers, which are the parts which fail when overheated and/or cooked
Andy Cotton1
Guest
The mapping was done by JKM in Portsmouth - the car pulls like a train but I wouldn't say that the map was agressive, it feels not as fast as when Dave at EMerald mapped it - but he put too much timing in and it pinked on boost.
JKM have pulled the timing back - I was happy how he mapped it he used det cans etc....it felt alot better and I was able to use all the power without pinking.....for the 1st time !
The manifold I have doesn't have EGT sensor so I'm not monitoring it but it was measured during the RR mapping and I'm only running 1.2 Bar of boost (Dave at Emerald was running 1.3Bar) so I'm not running the turbo flat out either.
The map feels milder than what Dave mapped it at but feels alot better at the top end - and there's absolutely no pinking anymore. It pinked it's head off a year ago with Daves map. Since then the Turbo has been rebuilt and the car's been RR'd - I'm happy they've done a good job.
JKM have pulled the timing back - I was happy how he mapped it he used det cans etc....it felt alot better and I was able to use all the power without pinking.....for the 1st time !
The manifold I have doesn't have EGT sensor so I'm not monitoring it but it was measured during the RR mapping and I'm only running 1.2 Bar of boost (Dave at Emerald was running 1.3Bar) so I'm not running the turbo flat out either.
The map feels milder than what Dave mapped it at but feels alot better at the top end - and there's absolutely no pinking anymore. It pinked it's head off a year ago with Daves map. Since then the Turbo has been rebuilt and the car's been RR'd - I'm happy they've done a good job.
well thats a mystery then as to the reoccuring turbo failure.
be interesting to hear what turbo dynamics say when they see it again so soon
be interesting to hear what turbo dynamics say when they see it again so soon
Andy Cotton1
Guest
Chaps an update...........................
I had two bungd made today. One 3" with a airline fitting and a 2.25" bung with a PSI gauge in.
I put 3" bung in place of the airfilter and the other one was put where the throttle body would go ie before the intake manifold. Now the theory would be that I manually inject 1.3Bar of air into the system from my compressor sat on the garage floor.
This in theory should also read 1.3 Bar at the other end i.e measured at before the throttle body - this should check for leaks in the charge system including the intercooler and associated pipework- right ?
Anyway - the PSI gauge measured 0 Bar the boost gauge measure 0 bar, there was a slight hissing from the dump valve (expected as it was being activated) but the most of the air was somehow leaking into the engine via the oil return line off the turbo !!
My breathers are both separated from the turbo lines and return into the catch can - like yours Bill.
So how can all this pressure be going back into the engine ?................the air is leaking past the compressor wheel into the bearing / oil chamber and back into the sump and back up the breathers into the catch can !!
Is this normal - surely not. !
I had two bungd made today. One 3" with a airline fitting and a 2.25" bung with a PSI gauge in.
I put 3" bung in place of the airfilter and the other one was put where the throttle body would go ie before the intake manifold. Now the theory would be that I manually inject 1.3Bar of air into the system from my compressor sat on the garage floor.
This in theory should also read 1.3 Bar at the other end i.e measured at before the throttle body - this should check for leaks in the charge system including the intercooler and associated pipework- right ?
Anyway - the PSI gauge measured 0 Bar the boost gauge measure 0 bar, there was a slight hissing from the dump valve (expected as it was being activated) but the most of the air was somehow leaking into the engine via the oil return line off the turbo !!
My breathers are both separated from the turbo lines and return into the catch can - like yours Bill.
So how can all this pressure be going back into the engine ?................the air is leaking past the compressor wheel into the bearing / oil chamber and back into the sump and back up the breathers into the catch can !!
Is this normal - surely not. !
certainly not normal.. seals/bearings slack as to blow by like this.
big leak by the sounds of it if 0psi showing when compressor is blowing into it
boost gauge off the plenum? which is disconnected now with your bung in place yea? so 0psi is right there.
you mean 0psi gauge off the pipework between the two bungs yea
big leak by the sounds of it if 0psi showing when compressor is blowing into it
boost gauge off the plenum? which is disconnected now with your bung in place yea? so 0psi is right there.
you mean 0psi gauge off the pipework between the two bungs yea
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Andy Cotton1
Guest
Sorry - you are right, Boost gauge is reading 0 as it should. It's connected off the plenum which is dosconnected from the test - so the boost gauge is reading correctly.
The other gauge is connected to the bung which is reading 0 Psi - this in theory should be reading 1.2 Bar. The compressor is regulated at 1.3Bar and is reading correctly. The compressed air is going into the turbo intake via a samco flexi going around the compressor side of the turbo, along the charge pipe into the intercooler, from the intercooler along some more pipework and then the pipe is disconnected from the throttle body and a bung has been inserted with a simple PSI gauge connected.
So in summary I am using compressed air to charge the charge circuit from the turbo intake up to the throttle body where there is a PSI gauge connected to a bung.
All the compressed air is going into the turbo intake - and venting through the breather pipe at the catch can air filter ! I think it is entering the engine via the turbo oil return pipe !
Is this any clearer ? So if the turbo was making charge - it's going into the sump via the turbo oil return pipe ! is this possible ?
Andy
The other gauge is connected to the bung which is reading 0 Psi - this in theory should be reading 1.2 Bar. The compressor is regulated at 1.3Bar and is reading correctly. The compressed air is going into the turbo intake via a samco flexi going around the compressor side of the turbo, along the charge pipe into the intercooler, from the intercooler along some more pipework and then the pipe is disconnected from the throttle body and a bung has been inserted with a simple PSI gauge connected.
So in summary I am using compressed air to charge the charge circuit from the turbo intake up to the throttle body where there is a PSI gauge connected to a bung.
All the compressed air is going into the turbo intake - and venting through the breather pipe at the catch can air filter ! I think it is entering the engine via the turbo oil return pipe !
Is this any clearer ? So if the turbo was making charge - it's going into the sump via the turbo oil return pipe ! is this possible ?
Andy
What you say makes sense to me Andy.
High oil pressure damaged the bearing/compressor seal. In your experiment, because of the damaged seal, boost pressure is flowing the other way, into the oil system.
High oil pressure damaged the bearing/compressor seal. In your experiment, because of the damaged seal, boost pressure is flowing the other way, into the oil system.
Andy Cotton1
Guest
Which is not right - right !
I'll let you know what TD say after their inspection and strip down.
I'll let you know what TD say after their inspection and strip down.
and there's no connection in your tip pipework or dv to anything else?
all oil breather pipes, off block front and rocker cover go into a tank seperated completely from he charge pipe or engine.. as i understood what you have said.
sounds like seals gone for sure. never come across it personally.
all oil breather pipes, off block front and rocker cover go into a tank seperated completely from he charge pipe or engine.. as i understood what you have said.
sounds like seals gone for sure. never come across it personally.
Andy Cotton1
Guest
That's right all my breathers are separated out and do not connect to the turbo in any way.
The DV is still connected in the circuit and there is a small leak / hiss but that aside, if you take off the oil filter cap or listen to the breather hose air is pouring out.
The DV is still connected in the circuit and there is a small leak / hiss but that aside, if you take off the oil filter cap or listen to the breather hose air is pouring out.
Andy Cotton1
Guest
Turbo Dynamics have said that basically -
The race that holds the bearings together (made of plastic) has got too hot and broken up (probably in the sump) and the bearings had nothing to hold them together - therefore turbo couldn't spin up to speed etc....
Basically the turbo has got too hot - they said also that there is a smell of fuel in the oil, hence diluting the oil and there is also slight cracking around the wastegate.
All in all it's kaput ! How does fuel get into the oil to cause this ? Engine has new rings and has been rebuilt.
The race that holds the bearings together (made of plastic) has got too hot and broken up (probably in the sump) and the bearings had nothing to hold them together - therefore turbo couldn't spin up to speed etc....
Basically the turbo has got too hot - they said also that there is a smell of fuel in the oil, hence diluting the oil and there is also slight cracking around the wastegate.
All in all it's kaput ! How does fuel get into the oil to cause this ? Engine has new rings and has been rebuilt.
A plastic ball cage in a turbo ? What are Garrett thinking of !!!!
You seem to get an awful lot of bad luck Andy.
Bernard
You seem to get an awful lot of bad luck Andy.
Bernard
Andy Cotton1
Guest
Personally I don't believe TD for their diagnoses without some Engineering evidence backing up their findings.
Apparently it's the engine that's caused the problems and some technician has sniffed the small amount of oil left in the bearing housing and said there is too much fuel in the oil. As an engineer I don't buy that - if he's going to say that he needs to back it up with figures.
Anyway - it's leaving me a bit confused as what to do at the mo.
Apparently it's the engine that's caused the problems and some technician has sniffed the small amount of oil left in the bearing housing and said there is too much fuel in the oil. As an engineer I don't buy that - if he's going to say that he needs to back it up with figures.
Anyway - it's leaving me a bit confused as what to do at the mo.
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