IHI VF34 Conversion Pics **Now with a TD05H-18G**

[Wilko]

you belive incorrectly john

valve failure

my original ibiza motor 7700rpm used lots, 35k miles IHI'd on high boost stock rods........ no worries.

play with ign, daft cocktail of fueling with thinners & timing tweeks on the other hand, can expose rods for the world to see without the use of a spanner.

Bill
Didn't know how robs failed, but high revs are a rod killer. They are very strong under compression, but the bending moment at MDC that gets them, and ultimately fatigues them.
Mine had had all kinds of boost, timing increases, but they had fatigued. They failed under a low torque condition, and had just reached their fatigue life. And for the record, there is nothing daft about a toluene fuel mix with suitable timing tweaks. It does nothing other than increase power and torque, which is the aim of most of us. No different than W/M which many run now.

Others have bent low mileage rods that had no time to fatigue by buzzing engines, and some of our friends across the pond have run >400lb ft and v high revs and run 10's on standard rods, but have fatigued them in a few thousand miles.

 

[h17och]

not sure what happened with mine but it has been expensive since lol

high milage i guess

 

[h17och]

oh yea, and a gt28rs

 

[ibizacupra]

And for the record, there is nothing daft about a toluene fuel mix with suitable timing tweaks. It does nothing other than increase power and torque, which is the aim of most of us. No different than W/M which many run now.

of course not John.

and your plug disintegrated and destroyed inconel exhaust valves spontaniously then I guess.

I think the key word you used yourself "suitable tweaks", just missing 'un'

 

[ibizacupra]

not sure what happened with mine but it has been expensive since lol

high milage i guess

yours was quite obviously too high boost from what you described to me just prior to it goign pop.. >2bar boost spike, without mapping or internals to suit.... inevitable.

 

[virdi]

What was the power @the wheels?

 

[HTC]

I wasn't told the actual figure at the wheels, but looking at the graph its approx 245bhp.

 

[ryan_s3]

well done mate.Mine used to peak 1.55bar and hold about 1.5bar at redline,i'm sure this would be ok.

 

[Wilko]

of course not John.

and your plug disintegrated and destroyed inconel exhaust valves spontaniously then I guess.

I think the key word you used yourself "suitable tweaks", just missing 'un'

Well Bill I'm sure as somebody who does custom mapping with your specialist tuning tools, you won't find this too difficult to understand.
I got my car back after the engine rebuild, and it had developed an intermittent misfire. Once or twice a day on average.
Now it was run on standard fuel (optimax), and as you would know, as a custom tuner, a big port head allows and needs much more timing advance than a small port to make power.
Timing was duly advanced until some CF were seen, and then knocked back 1.5 degrees. Car ran fine except for the intermittent misfire for many miles.

The misfire got worse, and eventually I burnt a valve out. Cause?

Well I had an intermittent maf fault that logging with vag com could not be picked up due to the low sampling rates. But then your custom logging tools would have picked that up? After the head rebuild, I got my tuner of choice to log it with their high sample rate logging tools, on staelths dyno, as the misfire was still present. Your maf is screwy was the response. New Maf, no misfire.

Now how does a screwy maf take out a valve? Well if you max out the map (>1.54bar boost), you are on the last row of the timing tables. Now your maf takes an intermittent dump on you, and the ecu sees lower load, so winds the boost up to compensate. The map doesn't see the extra boost, and can't move any further down the timing tables, so you have too much timing for the level of boost.

Knock sensors do their best, but ultimately they can only drop timing so far. The consequence is severe detonation, and goodbye exhaust valve.

Now Caney suffered an almost identical failure. I asked him what his boost gauge was reading pre boom, and off the scale was his answer. Mapped to 21psi. I said your mafs taken a dump when he told me. Engine rebuild later, his tuner tels him his maf has taken a dump.

One of the reasons I now run a 3 bar sensor, and run well within the limits of the map. At least then the ECU has a chance, and I hopefully spot it before the boost goes sky high.

Now obviously Bill as a custom tuner you would be well aware how this could happen! Also I think you'll find the valve burnt out causing the plug to die.

 

[HTC]

Good info.

Wilko, are you running a large port head on a usually small port block? I ask as your sig says 2002 1.8T.
Would the situation you outline above only be relevant for vehicles with MAP sensing ECUs? Mine is the early ECU that doesn't have feed back in that area. Would my type still add too much boost if the MAP were to fail?

Also, what is your opinion on a lumpy idle and backfires through the exhaust on gear change? Mine has developed both these characteristics since my Custom Code Phase 3 map has been added.

I'm thinking on the lines of a leaking exhaust (as far as I know it's not) or a rich mixture at idle and part throttle?

Would a backfire damage the turbine or anything else? It's quite loud and I hope I'm not spitting flames or anything :-(

I've sent an email to JBS about it.

 

[ibizacupra]

Now obviously Bill as a custom tuner you would be well aware how this could happen! Also I think you'll find the valve burnt out causing the plug to die.

and John, you have very capably confirmed from your experience of how not to tune the car beyond its sensors, running blind, on table extremes, reliant on sensors which are known to be weak.

....and the end result was component failure from pushing things simply too hard and too far.

an experience you have learned from... Others might not have even ventured there as its too "edgy" John.

My tuning, done under my instruction but in the hands of a.nother previously has resulted in reliable operation in far harder conditions. Maxing out sensors is not my preference for tuning tho.. and swapping onto DTA is no coincidence. Max'd MAP, Max'd MAF despite being the huge RS4 one, on basic ibiza ecu was not ideal, but tuned to be reliable (and perhaps luck also)

As for cause of failure of plug to inconel exhaust valve..... the plug tip is the weakest point, chipping a valve on exit to cause burn thru thereafter (rapidly) is my own take on what likely happened. Det... Bang...

 

[Wilko]

and John, you have very capably confirmed from your experience of how not to tune the car beyond its sensors, running blind, on table extremes, reliant on sensors which are known to be weak.

....and the end result was component failure from pushing things simply too hard and too far.

an experience you have learned from... Others might not have even ventured there as its too "edgy" John.

My tuning, done under my instruction but in the hands of a.nother previously has resulted in reliable operation in far harder conditions. Maxing out sensors is not my preference for tuning tho.. and swapping onto DTA is no coincidence. Max'd MAP, Max'd MAF despite being the huge RS4 one, on basic ibiza ecu was not ideal, but tuned to be reliable (and perhaps luck also)

As for cause of failure of plug to inconel exhaust valve..... the plug tip is the weakest point, chipping a valve on exit to cause burn thru thereafter (rapidly) is my own take on what likely happened. Det... Bang...

Plug tip was still intact, insulation was cracked. Replacement plug failed in the same way.

Pretty much everyone out there who is running larger turbos max out map sensors, so the ecu's timing strategy has no where to go. The only way to tune them safer is to run less advance, and not make good power, which kind of defeats the object. Overly rich fueling will also help, but again at the expense of power. All the UK tuners I know of max out the map, and run aggressive timing. The only bt software I've seen that doesn't is apr st3. Their st3+ uses a 3 bar map. A very sensible approach.

Most people are running s3 maf and standard map so are maxing the map out for most of the rev range. Mafs are dodgy at best, so a boost gauge is essential, and keeping an eye on it a good idea. A maf failure normally happens with the maf progressively reading low, giving time to pick this up.

I was unlucky, and had one that read spuriously, throwing instantaneous timing and fueling maps out. Now bear in mind that you have 80-120 combustion cycles a second, and that even a few ms of sensor dump can effect many combustion cycles, you can see how this can happen. An egt gauge or any other gauge will not help you in this situation. You are reliant on the ecu being able to see what happening, which is why I operate mine within the limit of the sensors, so that at least the map is backing up the maf for load readings.

I'm not sure I'd be happy running large boost on an old ecu! There's always the option of the boost controller to peg max boost in conjunction with the n75. Jabba have been sensibly doing this, and Revo recommend it with their st3 stuff.

I had a long conversation a year or so ago after i lost a valve with an engineer who was involved in the design of the tt head. He confirmed that on the 225, they had put larger water passages around the central 2 exhaust valves, as they had seen valve burn on these 2 valves even on standard tt's when things went tits up. Large port heads are non tt so don't have this.


You have been lucky bill. Most haven't. I hope your luck holds.

 

[ibizacupra]

Plug tip was still intact, insulation was cracked. Replacement plug failed in the same way.

missing electrode/earth I thought you said to me at the time - my bad if I recall this incorrectly from the pictures you sent.

I'm not sure I'd be happy running large boost on an old ecu! There's always the option of the boost controller to peg max boost in conjunction with the n75. Jabba have been sensibly doing this, and Revo recommend it with their st3 stuff.

I agree. Maxing sensors on older ecu's is edgy. Control of N75 seems to vary between tuners, some manage it some dont quite. Some control via external controllers as mapping tables cannot be modified by them, and the external method works for them.

You have been lucky bill. Most haven't. I hope your luck holds.

Luck is what you make it.
(if using wideband, egt, external boost control is called luck, then yea, I'm lucky to have chosen to do this) - I hope my luck continues.


DTA standalone for me now, sensors to suit and monitor and level of tune is all down to me now.

Fingers & Toes crossed.
its bye bye ME7 safeties (which were'nt safe enough to protect your engine damages) and onto pure tuning itself to suit now. I relish being able to tell when and what my fueling,ign & boost will do now in precise terms without the fragility of some factory sensors (MAF,s coilpacks etc)

 

[Wilko]

Luck is what you make it.
(if using wideband, egt, external boost control is called luck, then yea, I'm lucky to have chosen to do this) - I hope my luck continues.

Bill these are all relatively recent additions to your car, and yes they are all worthwhile safe guards, though outside most peoples budget. You have custom mapped BT cars recently without these safeguards, and maxed out the map. Lets hope they don't go bang.

Your car when mapped by jabba had a boost controller peging max boost, which may well have saved you some damage. I believe jabbas demo ibeza was not so lucky at bruntingthorpe, or was it yours? I can't remember.

 

[ibizacupra]

Bill these are all relatively recent additions to your car, and yes they are all worthwhile safe guards, though outside most peoples budget. You have custom mapped BT cars recently without these safeguards, and maxed out the map. Lets hope they don't go bang.

Your car when mapped by jabba had a boost controller peging max boost, which may well have saved you some damage. I believe jabbas demo ibeza was not so lucky at bruntingthorpe, or was it yours? I can't remember.

I have'nt max'd out any sensors on any cars I have CC3 John, so instead of presuming to know what I do I suggest you wind your neck back in ! You are talking out of your arse, 2+2=5

The reasons for why not are all as written above by both of us. Its ill advised to run this way.

Additional sensors on mine are 2 to 3 years of evolution, so hardly *new* and it is the exact experience learned (continued) that shapes what is sensible from foolhardy, and why I advise people on *my* approach, and is my opinion based on my experience. I do not agree with many others approach to things. They are free to do what they wish and believe in their own methods as being right etc.............. but thats not of relevance to me.

To correct the facts re the first IHI failures on Jabba's AND my own ibiza @ Bruntingthorpe back in 2002/3 (memory fades) was simple pump supply failure from asking for fueling not able to be supplied at 4bar from a stock ibiza fuel pump.... Lean, melty things as a consequence. Not a MAF failure to be seen, just plain and simple pump inadequacy. Heinsight for everyone else ever since, as pumps get advised. S3 pumps seemed quite popular afterwards for others IHI BT's once the initial learning had been done by us. Remembering 320bhp back then was a big deal. Not so these days such is the pace of progress.

Same logic as std valves were deemed adequate, until I suffered breakage, as did several other tuned 1.8t in track use, and hey presto, aftermarket valves were found by me, introduced, tested and are now commonly used by many.... Badger5 introduced Supertech 1.8t valves to the UK & Jabba, and now everyone else knows why they might need them. Learning from experience. (learned at some cost I might add)

As for Jabba's controller saving me from overboost, my controller was adjustable not preset by Jabba like customer cars & ran > MAP sensor voltages could cope over the 1.55bar limit, and I have the pile of overheated leaned out exhaust housings to show for it. EGT sensors and wideband added for "informed" monitoring to further push those writing the files with the benefit of accurate and meaningful logging.

Its all experience and its mostly be learned the hardway, both personally, and from others I know in the same game pushing things.

 

[Wilko]

Now bill there's no need to get personal!

Steve M's car according to your own post was turned down to 1.4 bar from the 1.6 bar the CC3 map came with using custom settings.
Do you really believe that in summer or when the car is hot it will not hit 1.5-1.6 bar?
Is this not perilously close to maxing the map sensor out?
If his maf starts to under read by 10% or so, is it not going to wind the boost up, and hit the end of the timing tables, and potentially run too much timing for the boost level?

Does steve have a boost controller to limit maximum boost? Does he keep an eagle eye on his boost guage to make sure boost doesn't increase beyond the design setting?

 

[caveo]

My cc3 map is also quite strange as it holds 1.4 bar till the higher revs then dropps to 1.2 bar ( as my cars done 120000 miles and still got oe internals )

 

[ibizacupra]

Now bill there's no need to get personal!

Steve M's car according to your own post was turned down to 1.4 bar from the 1.6 bar the CC3 map came with using custom settings.
Do you really believe that in summer or when the car is hot it will not hit 1.5-1.6 bar?
Is this not perilously close to maxing the map sensor out?
If his maf starts to under read by 10% or so, is it not going to wind the boost up, and hit the end of the timing tables, and potentially run too much timing for the boost level?

When you talk rubbish john, presuming to comment on how you think I choose to tune cars (safely) then I will tell you... like I just did, that you are talking out of your arse. Assumptions are the mutha of all fcuk ups john

I do not max out sensors on customer cars, which is what you have suggested.

1.55 map max to 1.6 is 0.05 difference........ and you will remember it was turned down to 1.4. For a reason!

The tables you keep referring to are in your experience of revo I suggest, not those as adjusted by CC. Limits are not what they sit on. Not all code is generated the same. This reliance on MAF sensor you keep referring to is not neccessarily the case. My ibiza ran at times without functioning MAF, and did not eat itself in that event, even on its crappy older ibiza ecu. By your description, the millisecond glitch in sensor will result in terminal engine carnage, where I was running a previous 2.2bar boost in race conditions, and it ran fine, and continues to do so. - Must be those lucky parts and gauges, combined with the lucky cc3 tuning.

Please do not presume to tell me what I am doing when you have no idea. My customers know my approach to this, and its conservative for their benefit. My own chariots are the opposite, max'd and pushed to fcuk, but its at my risk and its development.

 

[Wilko]

Hey Bill
If you want to call uploading a generic map you've been emailed, and then using custom settings to adjust it tuning, then be my guest.

So you think that unplugging the maf has the same effect on the ecu as an under reading or spurious reading one?

There are various load sensors. Maf, map, throttle position, iat, coolant temp to name but a few. Remove one completely, and the ecu will rely on others. Have a functioning maf, and the ecu will use it as the base for it's load calculations.

Now are you telling me that CC use tunng tools that don't represent the maps as either a 3 degree graph or a table. Ulimately bil the tools represent the ecu binary file in a way thats easy to understand and manipulate. Or ar you saying that CC somehoe miraculously change the bin file so that the ecu opperates completely differently to how bosche designed it.

The difference between 1.4 bar boost and 1.55 is about 5-6% in airflow terms, or in density terms 17C temp change.
Ever calculated how many combustion cycles occur between the 1/3 of a second resolution vag com gives you? Enough to eat an engine?

You can tell me I'm talking rubbish, but at no point do you give any technical information about how the ECU does anything. I wonder why?

Anyway Bill you're clearly wound way to tight by this discussion, and we've gone way off topic on HTC's thread. so if you'd like to start a new thread explaining the ECU's load control, boost and timing strategy, and how each load sensor effects these, and what the removal of each of them causes the ECU to do, those of us less knowledgeable than you clearly are, as an experienced tuner, would find it an interesting read

 

[ibizacupra]

Hey Bill
If you want to call uploading a generic map you've been emailed, and then using custom settings to adjust it tuning, then be my guest.


Now are you telling me that CC use tunng tools that don't represent the maps as either a 3 degree graph or a table. Ulimately bil the tools represent the ecu binary file in a way thats easy to understand and manipulate. Or ar you saying that CC somehoe miraculously change the bin file so that the ecu opperates completely differently to how bosche designed it.

The difference between 1.4 bar boost and 1.55 is about 5-6% in airflow terms, or in density terms 17C temp change.
Ever calculated how many combustion cycles occur between the 1/3 of a second resolution vag com gives you? Enough to eat an engine?

You can tell me I'm talking rubbish, but at no point do you give any technical information about how the ECU does anything. I wonder why?

Anyway Bill you're clearly wound way to tight by this discussion, and we've gone way off topic on HTC's thread. so if you'd like to start a new thread explaining the ECU's load control, boost and timing strategy, and how each load sensor effects these, and what the removal of each of them causes the ECU to do, those of us less knowledgeable than you clearly are, as an experienced tuner, would find it an interesting read

John you can calculate as many figures as you like in your theorised tuning to keep yourself happy for hours. How many engines have you damaged badly from your textbook/calculator tuning......... How many have I? erm....



Practically, on cars, at high & medium levels of tune, are what I am relating to.
Tweaking is with c_settings, files are set for me to what I ask for from logs performed, and various iterations of said until it needs minimal tweaks so I am happy with it. You have a long standing issue with CC/JBS which is what fuels your continued digs... but do not involve me in your personal crusade. I use CC for all stage 3 as it is excellent code, which delivers against what I asked them for. You may be surprised or not, but I dont always agree with CC/JBS on what makes a good BT system, but they duely supply the code after discussions & iterations, and to date its worked fine. If it did'nt work so well, I would'nt be using them. If they did'nt trust I knew what I was doing mechanical spec wise, they would'nt deal with me either.

There are various load sensors. Maf, map, throttle position, iat, coolant temp to name but a few. Remove one completely, and the ecu will rely on others. Have a functioning maf, and the ecu will use it as the base for it's load calculations.
So you think that unplugging the maf has the same effect on the ecu as an under reading or spurious reading one?

And again, assumption on your part I was'nt talking MAF disconnected but exactly failing and failed maf sensors, and no engine carnage in race conditions. Go figure! Must be that "luck" again.



I suggest you take your pissing contest against CC/JBS somewhere else.

You have suggested I tune cars beyond sensor limits, I have corrected you.
You say wound up, this is why - Dont assume you know what I am doing stating sensor limits are overridden when you have NO CLUE how I work or what I do, and this is a slur against me & my hard earned Badger5 reputation. So Back off that line of arguement please.

It is no coincidence I am off ME7 on my evolution tuning with the ibiza, as the limitations I see in forcing a road ecu to drive the motor to over 4x its design limit, with known reliability issues on several key to ME7 ecu sensors,devices, I no longer wish to have, so standalone is the way forward for me for the racecar.


Start another thread if you want to willy wave on your prowess on ME7.
Debating with you is simply wasting my time. I've made my point.
Expertise in the files resides with CC as they author the code to what I ask for. Simple.

Damos files confirm how things operate. Do you have them?