Biodiesel

[Fidge]

Agree, I test used engine oils and I've seen a increase in numbers since the start of Biodiesel. Thing is the OEM's never used Biodiesel as a reference fuel when testing the engines.

Who knows what it does in the long term.....What I see is a massive increase in engine oil fuel dilutions. Typical 6-7% and upwards. The average fuel dilution (if any) before biodiesel was on the UK scene was 1-2% max (unless major engine problem)

I think the goverment put lots of pressure on OEM's to included that biodiesel is ok to use now in car handbooks.

I've also read this, due to an increase in unburnt fuel slipping passed the pistons. Biodiesel also has great lubricating properties and I can't see it being a problem with regular oil changes every 10k miles. I'm keeping an eye on the oil also. Still if it goes all tits up in the coming months I'll let you all know!

 

[chippenhamwilts]

In my opinion it will depend on the manufacturer of the bio diesel. I actually go to several bio diesel plants across europe. The oil is refined much the same as crude oil to give the final diesel products.

Normal veg oil is not refined in the same way as I also visit these facilities to. There are several companies producing bio diesel that I work for such as Cargill and Bunge. Now veg oil still has a lot of water in it which kinda screws just about everything in your motor which is why old chip oil is better as its been heated...a lot... which gets rid of the water but leaves other crap which needs to be filtered.

Pucker bio diesel should be ok as it has been tested by many of the oil giants who purchase the stuff from the likes of Cargill and Bunge. Anyway I dare say many of the knackered engines are from people who will try just about anything to save a buck.

Oh most bio diesel is actually made from soya by the way, veg oils use a lot less soya if any (depending on type of oil).

All in all though its all plant juice whether its fresh bio or million year old crude

 

[TornadoRed]

It all depends on the percentage of biodiesel.

A 2% solution -- B02 -- is enough to improve the lubricity of the fuel. It makes for a nice additive.

A 5% solution -- B05 -- is the maximum that VW recommends in the US and Canada. Anything more than that can void the warranty.

I have tried B100 -- 100% biodiesel, 80% canola oil and 20% soybean oil -- and my car ran great. Unfortunately my fuel mileage immediately dropped by 4 MPG. So even though the fuel cost less at the pump, it was costing me more per mile. I've since switched back to regular "dino" diesel.

 

[lewism3]

Found this link the other day:

www.smartveg.com


What do people think????

 

[aceritz]

Hey folks, been running my 02 plate leon tdi se on Bio diesel for a few months now, had to change the fuel filter after my second tank and it has been running great since. Slight decrease in mpg but most of my driving is around town. Saving around 30 pence per litre

 

[Morg]

Good to hear from you, i would go back but to get it here its about 4 miles to drive, and its 91.9 a litre anyway so im not sure if it is worth ?

 

[stev2001]

Well I've just secured biodiesel with cetane additives to aid cold starting at
75p a litre!

I also live in Southampton and am after a a TDI leon to run on bio diesel. Where do you get it from as I'd be really interested at 70-80p a litre. Was thinking about buying a bio processor and making it myself but want to try the stuff first.

 

[Toledo Steve]

Iknow someone who has been running a 110 TDI on straight cooking oil from Sainsburys, for more than a year now, occasional top ups with diesel (but only because its a sod to pour the cooking into a receptacle and thence into the car (Filler too deep) even on the coldest days, just takes a few extra turns before firing up, runs just the same power OK, mpg a bit less, the sound of the engine is a quieter more refined BRRRR rather than the usual 110 TDI clatter. I won,t go into it here as I,ve posted on this and other sites about the same subject, but in my experience (many thousands of miles over many years) Merc Diesels love cooking oil (historic reasons for that (3rd Reich) and parrafin/kerosene, All Rover Diesels likewise, early VW diesels positively thrive on alternate fuel oils (1500/1600cc turbo and non turbo) and I,ll let you know my long term verdict on the 110TDI after a couple of thousand more miles. I also have another common rail diesel which |I will start on cooking as soon as its replacement is up and about. (Lets see how long it lasts on cooking oil)

 

[TornadoRed]

Iknow someone who has been running a 110 TDI on straight cooking oil from Sainsburys, for more than a year now..... just takes a few extra turns before firing up, runs just the same power OK, ..... Merc Diesels love cooking oil (historic reasons for that (3rd Reich) and parrafin/kerosene, All Rover Diesels likewise, early VW diesels positively thrive on alternate fuel oils (1500/1600cc turbo and non turbo) and I,ll let you know my long term verdict on the 110TDI after a couple of thousand more miles.

I agree that older diesels with indirect injection are suitable for running SVO or WVO if the vehicle has been properly converted. That means two fuel tanks, one for diesel and one for veggie oil, plus a method of heating the veggie oil to lower the viscosity. It would still require much more frequent engine oil changes, and close attention must be paid to the injectors.

As for the long-term result from pouring vegetable oil into your diesel fuel tank... You will know the long term verdict "after a couple of thousand more miles." Because it should only take a few thousand miles before you begin to see some serious problems.

Just so you know what you're in store for: Fuel must atomize properly in the combustion chamber, then ignite, without any fuel EVER touching the top of the pistons. Have you ever seen how small the holes are in the injector nozzles? They're microscopic. Even if only one is plugged, or only partially plugged, it can alter the spray pattern and direct raw fuel directly at the top of the piston, at many thousands of PSI. Then it would not take more than a few minutes to cut through the top of the piston like a cutting torch.

Toledo Steve: do what you want, it's your car. But do not EVER tell anyone else that this is safe. TDI engines are too expensive to replace.

 

[Toledo Steve]

Hmm.....thankyou Tornado Red, but please note that we are all just expressing our own experiences, as in all things....one new car can run perfectly for hundreds of thousands of miles and the next one off the line can experience catastrophic engine failure after a few hundred miles.....anything we do, we do as adults and take the risks associated therein. I do understand the principles of combustion in a modern diesel and I know that injectors can become blocked by many substances contained in Diesel fuel. I have worked on so many different systems over the years....There is always room for improvement and experiment. My point is that my experiments have proved that in specific engines which I have noted, pure veggie oil from supermarkets can be run for years and many thousands of miles with no problems .Other than good servicing (all my vehicles are treated to 3-5000miles oil changes)my vehicles have no special treatment, (I did also note that I live in a reasonably warm part of UK and would not try to run on pure veggie oil in the North of Scotland (we used to have waxing problems with best quality diesel in Scotland) So look out for my report over the next few thousand miles and make your own minds up, I will happily report if I suffer problems of any kind, but as I say the rover 2.0SDI is still running happily on cooking oil 3 years on and I think that its technology is on a par with that of my 110TDI. I will add, as Tornado red mentioned, do not try to run a common rail diesel on pure cooking oil, I shall be doing this over the next 2 years so if you can wait to see how long my engine lasts under everyday conditions, you will at least have a yardstick to go by. I only wish I still had my 10 litre Deutz engine to experiment on.

 

[TornadoRed]

My point is that my experiments have proved that in specific engines which I have noted, pure veggie oil from supermarkets can be run for years and many thousands of miles with no problems .Other than good servicing

You have not identified exactly what makes some engines suitable and others not. This is a SEAT website, but the engines are Volkswagen-engineered. Is there any diesel engine operated by any SEAT Cupra member that is suitable? Almost certainly NOT.

You referred to long-term testing -- my point was that this could be only a few months or a few thousand miles, as that is how long it will take to ruin an engine. The engines may run fine on the first tank, leading some experimenters to continue. But this is like a ticking timebomb.

 

[Fidge]

You have not identified exactly what makes some engines suitable and others not. This is a SEAT website, but the engines are Volkswagen-engineered. Is there any diesel engine operated by any SEAT Cupra member that is suitable? Almost certainly NOT.

You referred to long-term testing -- my point was that this could be only a few months or a few thousand miles, as that is how long it will take to ruin an engine. The engines may run fine on the first tank, leading some experimenters to continue. But this is like a ticking timebomb.

In response to this i'm just approaching 10k miles on 75-100% biodiesel (currently 100%) and no problems experienced so far. Slightly less MPG experienced as mentioned before (approx 20 miles per tank) but saving 30p a litre!

 

[TornadoRed]

In response to this i'm just approaching 10k miles on 75-100% biodiesel (currently 100%) and no problems experienced so far. Slightly less MPG experienced as mentioned before (approx 20 miles per tank) but saving 30p a litre!

Biodiesel in any concentration is a completely processed fuel. My warnings were not against biodiesel, but against unprocessed vegetable oil, either SVO or WVO. And against those like Toledo Steve -- just because his car doesn't have a serious problem yet, does not mean he is qualified to tell others that veggie oil works just fine. Too many people have tried it in the past, who now regret their flirtation with veggie oil.

Considering the cost of injector nozzles, injection systems, and replacement engines -- let me put it this way: If I saw a used TDI for sale (VW, SEAT, whatever), with direct injection, in excellent condition, and then I learned that it had been converted to run SVO or WVO, I would immediately knock $5000 or more off the price I'd be willing to pay for it. It costs about $2000 to convert a TDI to use veggie oil -- I would have to remove this equipment and throw it away. So that is at least a swing of $7000 -- you have a TDI worth $15k, you spend $2k for conversion, run until the problems start to pop up, then you have a TDI worth $10k or less. Avoid the financial loss -- avoid straight veggie oil. Stick with biodiesel, quality biodiesel from a reliable source.

 

[J.K.jr.bad.]

I've tried Biodiesel on all my diesel cars and I can tell, that on modern engines such as PD you will get less power and not so well starting. But on old engines such as was on my Nissan Bluebird, there was no differences in performance, but you will get softer sound and pancake smell

 

[Husbandofstinky]

I think everybody can see both sides to this discussion between Toledo Steve and Tornado Red.

The issue here I believe is the Atlantic Ocean. I don't know how much you pay in the States for fuel, but here it is over $10 a gallon. And this is the catalyst as to why we over here are seriously look into alternatives.

Casing point, been away recently and the local TV was all arab channels. Almost every other advert was for Chevy 5.7 litre V8 this, Ford V8 that, Land cuisers etc. Extreme example I know and its purely down to cost - if it were $5 per gallon I don't think people here would bother.

Steve is experimenting with his car and so are many others. And yes it is a bit of an unkown long term. If it weren't for experimenting, where would we be today? Some you win (Edison) some you loose (Nobel). Progress?

All I can say is good luck to him and I hope it all works out ok. That is his motor car and yours is yours as they say.

Keep us posted Steve.

 

[Toledo Steve]

will do....see also other threads eg Veggie oil.....Just a note....I,ll do anything I can outside of actively inviting the Law/Customs better known as Brown,s Stazi (East German secret police - made the KGB look like girl scouts) to try to get to know me better, but Brown is the only chancellor (probably in the world) (only a Scottish Socialist/communist could have thought of it) to pass a law that makes it possible for him to tax water should anyone ever invent an engine that can produce energy from water (Star Trek country) So I think I would try anything to get around UNFAIR Taxes of the magnitude we pay. (What is it with us?? I,ve said it before and I,ll say it again, in a real Free country like America, Brown would have long ago been dragged screaming on to the Lawn of the Whitehouse and executed by his own Marine guards. ( I still see in my minds eye the execution of Nickolai Chauchesu and his wife and think "There is a God after all") And just as a little point to finish with, it is rarely mentioned in the press these days, (Peter Obourne Daily Mail Saturday or Friday) but the UK came very close to a Military Coup back in the dark days when it looked like that nice Mr Wedgewood Ben would become that next Labour prime minister and would promptly have handed us over to the USSR lock stock and barrel. Nowadays the Govt. proposes to use the Army against the people should we rise up against fuel taxes....and the worst of it is the Wimps and closet commies in charge today would probably go along with it. Maybe thay are getting their own back......Or maybe Boidiesel and Politics should never mix.!!!!

 

[TornadoRed]

I've got no love for taxes, nor any argument with anyone wanting to save money on fuel.

But the fuel must be appropriate for the engine. Biodiesel? Okay in TDIs. Veggie oil? Much, much better in older indirect-injection engines. Very risky in VE TDIs, but a true ticking timebomb in PD engines.

Anyone is permitted to experiment with his own car. But advising others entails a certain moral responsibility.

 

[Husbandofstinky]

I've got no love for taxes, nor any argument with anyone wanting to save money on fuel.

So what do you guys pay in the states for a gallon of derv or regular gas?

 

[G!zmond0]

So am I to understand that only old turbo diesels and no turbo are safe to use bio on?

 

[Viking]

So am I to understand that only old turbo diesels and no turbo are safe to use bio on?

Biodiesel is fine in any diesel engine (more or less) dependent on manufacturers requirements. Veg oil is a different issue.