Some experiences with torque wrenches

[Crossthreaded]

I posted, a wee while ago, about my experiences with Brake pipe flaring tools: https://www.seatcupra.net/forums/threads/brake-pipe-flaring-tools.466163/#post-5032196 and a couple of people made interesting replies. In particular EduardoHope01 who said he particularly enjoyed this type of post. I wouldn't be surprised to find many of us have messed about with cheaper flaring tools and maybe caught a bt of a cold buying poor quality items? So, thinking further on this I thought I could do a similar "feature on Torque wrenches which is another tool many aspire to own and where you should never buy the "cheap and cheerful" option.

So, hopefully some may find this interesting and I'd love to hear of other's experiences.

Many years ago, whilst a student learning my trade - motor Mechanic - as my abilities grew, I needed to do a cylinder head on my MIni (burnt exhaust valve - due no doubt to me mercilessly ragging it around the country roads!) My local factor had a special offer on this one:


and, being no expert, and with very little money available, I bought it. Seemed to work Ok, had a range of 0 to 150 lbs/ft and the gasket never blew for the rest of the time I owned it so it must have been good enough for the old cast iron 850 mini engine. Wouldn't trust it on one of today's aluminium wonders though!

Some years later, now a City and Guilds qualified mechanic, I found myself getting involved in more ambitious home projects. With much more knowledge of my trade now I realized that old torque wrench was probably not really very precise and, with it being difficult to borrow tools like torque wrenches, from work I decided to buy a really good one so bought this:



Not cheap, but pretty much the industry standard at that time and found in most garages. Scale 20 to 100 lbs/ft (25 to 135 Nm).

This has been an excellent purchase and I've used it on engine and transmission rebuilds, a couple of modified engine builds - notably a big bore VW which went into a beach buggy and my 1275 "S" engine which I built to "fast road" spec also a complete strip down and rebuild of both engine ("O" series) and gearbox in my old Ambassador and many other lesser projects. A number of years ago I had it - the wrench - overhauled and recalibrated and the company which did it said that it needed very little "tweeking" to bring it right up to spec. Not a cheap job though, having a torque wrench recalibrated by a reliable engineering company and that's worth remembering because torque wrenches really need to be checked and recalibrated on a regular basis. This factor is all part of this thread ongoing - so read on.

Next, and we're still talking many years ago at this point, I was at the Portobello autojumble which was held in the town hall. I've made a number of very good purchases there and on this occasion I spotted a whopper of a torque wrench. I just couldn't resist it. Here it is with the old beam wrench next to it for comparison:



It's rated 50 to 250 lbs/ft (70 to 340 Nm) and I convinced myself I needed it. To do what? I've no idea, but I just fancied it and it was quite cheap - probably because he'd had it "for ever" and couldn't move it on, I guess not many "driveway grease monkeys" need one this big? Anyway I actually can't remember ever using it, but it looked very impressive on my back wall tool board! Then, one day, a chap I know quite well, asked to borrow it. I don't usually lend tools and especially not precision tools, but this chap is very kindly disposed towards me and a useful chap to know what with his trade connections etc, so I let him take it. Some time later he returned it but with the spring still compressed to a scale reading of around 235 lbs/ft. Wonder what he'd been working on? must have been a commercial? Anyway, I was very disappointed at this because anyone "who knows" knows you always wind the tension off the spring in a torque wrench otherwise it rapidly becomes inaccurate. So I wound the handle back and, the whole thing came apart!:



You can see the spring and calibration washer and this set me to wondering how this might have happened, because normally these things stop once the spring is backed off. Well, looking at the handle more closely you can see a wee hole in the side of the main body, which obviously should have some sort of stop in it and this is missing:



Of course then I went on to wonder why? and I then thought, I bet this isn't the first time this has happened and if so, maybe calibrating washers have been lost etc. So that was why it was so "affordable" At the very least this tool needs a specialist looking at it and recommending whether it's worth going further to restore it - and that's going to cost. So it went back to being an ornament on my tool board.

The years rolled on and I'd become quite friendly with the chap who manages the tool desk in our local Halfords. One of the things about the very good and high quality smaller Britool wrench (the one with the red "bobble" in the second illustration) is that it doesn't have a ratcheting action which can make it quite difficult to use in some enclosed and tight situations, especially if you're using a single hex socket with it. He alerted me to a special offer they were doing at that time, on a Norbar with ratchet built in, which actually worked out even cheaper with my trade card, on a similar range - 20 to 110 lbs/ft (30 to 150 nm). I "treated" myself and I'd strongly recommend a ratcheting wrench if you are buying one.

For a number of years that was it for me with torque wrenches. Until, maybe 10 years ago when I thought "I wonder if the Norbar, which was my "go to" option, is still accurate? Then I thought, I've hardly used the Britool since it was calibrated so i could probably check the Norbar against it? So I set them both to the same mid range setting, popped the square drive out of the Norbar and slid it over the Britool's square drive:



Then, with the Britool held in the vice, I pulled on the Norbar's handle and both wrenches clicked almost simultaneously. Excellent! I tried it a couple of times with the result repeating. Then I tried them at a quarter full scale and three quarters full scale - bearing in mind these types of wrench are not especially accurate at near zero or full scale, and again, they clicked off almost simultaneously. With the Britool having hardly seen the light of day since calibration I recon that proves the Norbar probably isn't far out?

Going to have to split this post - it's too long for it to be accepted. I'll make another post to complete it

 

[Crossthreaded]

Ok, lets see if i can get the second part posted now:

Having had what I believe to be a success with playing off one torque wrench against another to check calibration (ok, not that accurate I'm sure) I'd been talking about it to another mechanic friend who showed me his very expensive Snap On digital torque wrench. Wow, what a tool - and Wow what a price! We got to wondering if it could be used in the same as I'd done with the Norbar and Britool but maybe with more accuracy? Anyway, it made for an interesting conversation if nothing else. Then, some time later, I became aware of digital torque adaptors and spotted that Machine Mart sell a version of a popular one, you see often on the internet, under their Clarke brand name.

I spent quite some time and effort researching this and it all looked pretty good. It's not all that expensive, but not exactly bargain basement either. However it has a huge range 70 to 340 nm (50 to 250 lbs/ft) so would cover pretty much anything I was likely to come across except the smaller fixings, but I have the Norbar, the Britool and a Halfords (Norbar I think) three eighths drive which covers those (8 to 60 nm 6 to 44 lbs/ft). With conventional wrenches being only truly accurate around their mid range I was concerned about linear accuracy so I rang the Clarke people direct and had a very informative chat with a very well informed rep. Being electronic - I presume it works via a strain guage?, forgot to ask, Doh! - it uses no mechanical parts - like springs and levers with pivots - so is much more accurate over it's full scale deflection, Again, having no mechanical parts it needs no periodic return for specialist calibration. It does have a calibration procedure, which you carry out before use, to better align it to available battery capacity as the batteries, two CR 2032 button cells, age and it tells you when new batteries are needed. I bought one - I'm still using the batteries that came with it!

I really like this tool but it does have one great drawback. By the time you've got it assembled with a bar of some sort on one side and a socket on the other, Man, it's so deep you can't really use it in confined spaces. So working on stuff like cam belt tensioners etc, where you are in between the inner wing and the front of the engine is pretty much impossible. I mean, you are talking inches, see here:





No problem on stuff like head bolts and lots of other stuff though.

One thing I really do like it for is checking my other wrenches for accuracy. Here it is plugged into an old O2 sensor socket in my vice and the Britool on top:



Set the scale to "ranging" and as you pull on the wrench the scale displays the rising value. just watch for what it's showing when the wrench clicks. repeat a few times for accuracy. Of course, if you are using it for actually torquing a fixing, I prefer to have it set to the required figure and listen for the audible warning as that figure is achieved.

So now, the big old Britool is simply an impressive ornament on my tool board. The smaller Britool I bought all those years ago spends most of it's life resting in my tool chest, ready for duty "just in case". So these are the "friends" I use all the time:

Both have ratchet action which I strongly recommend. The angle gauge is an absolute must these days and the digital adaptor is used where possible for tightening fixings, because I reason it's likely to be more accurate then the mechanical wrenches, but also for periodically doing an approximate check on the accuracy of the mechanical wrenches.

So there you are folks. Hope you all enjoyed that? Feel free to ask questions, I might even be able to make an intelligent answer!

 

[Crossthreaded]

Great. That seems to work, splitting it in two I mean. Hope someone enjoys that and do feel free to comment and maybe contribute your experiences.

 

[Crossthreaded]

Just thought of a job which that old beam type torque wrench (the first picture in the thread) would be ideal for. Applying tension to the water pump belt, via the pump body, 0n our EA211 engines, whilst tightening it's fixing bolts. Almost impossible to do with a click type wrench i would have thought?

 

[MoToJoJo]

Got the Halfords one in ½" and was looking at the 1/4" one recently but the price has rocketed up. For ⅜" I've got a Draper or Sealey, I can't remember.

May be persuaded to go Teng for a ¼" torque wrench for the small stuff.

Looked at digital ones but laughed at the price.

Don't leave them set to tension huh? Back shortly, just got to go into my garage for no reason whatsoever

 

[Crossthreaded]

Got the Halfords one in ½" and was looking at the 1/4" one recently but the price has rocketed up. For ⅜" I've got a Draper or Sealey, I can't remember.

May be persuaded to go Teng for a ¼" torque wrench for the small stuff.

Looked at digital ones but laughed at the price.

Don't leave them set to tension huh? Back shortly, just got to go into my garage for no reason whatsoever

The Halfords ones seem to get a very good reputation. I believe Norbar were their supplier a few years ago when I bought mine. https://www.norbar.com/ Not sure now but maybe still are? I doubt if most home mechanics could justify the price of a dedicated digital one.

Winding the spring back after use? Oh yes, if the spring looses even a wee bit of tension the wrench will no longer be accurate. By the very fact that you have to wind them up before use they will slowly become inaccurate over time which is why they need to be periodically calibrated. Always store with the spring "relaxed"

At my age I often go into my garage/workshop for no good reason and then forget why I went in there anyway!

 

[RUM4MO]

I seem to have dipped back into this "buying another torque wrench" thing again recently!

It was prompted by me becoming aware that VW Group seems to moved from, in many instances, a fixed highish torque setting to a much lower initial torque setting and then an extra angular tighten, this has left me, recently being forced to use at least one of my toque wrenches far too close either the low or high end - so I've grabbed another Halfords Pro 1/2" - and in doing so - I've just also gone and bought a 1/4" ie low end one as well, okay that one is not so "quality" as the Norbar other ones, and now, the big question:- how can I part company with my Britool "old friends"!

Even used the new small one on brake nipples - you've got to use these when you have bought them!

 

[Crossthreaded]

I seem to have dipped back into this "buying another torque wrench" thing again recently!

It was prompted by me becoming aware that VW Group seems to moved from, in many instances, a fixed highish torque setting to a much lower initial torque setting and then an extra angular tighten, this has left me, recently being forced to use at least one of my toque wrenches far too close either the low or high end - so I've grabbed another Halfords Pro 1/2" - and in doing so - I've just also gone and bought a 1/4" ie low end one as well, okay that one is not so "quality" as the Norbar other ones, and now, the big question:- how can I part company with my Britool "old friends"!

Even used the new small one on brake nipples - you've got to use these when you have bought them!

Hi RUM, Hope this finds you well? I'm just 2 weeks into recovery from a hugely successful hip replacement so still "hobbling" a little bit. Since buying the Scala I've only been dipping into this forum occasionally but your post here caught my eye.

Torque tightening is a very different thing now to what we understood all those years ago. Angle tightening is "the thing" now and, having considered it in some detail, I think it's a preferable way to go about it. Torque tightening doesn't actually measure how tightly two, or more, components are being forced together - of fundamental importance with something like a head gasket. Instead it measures how much force it takes to rotate the nut/bolt which is really a measurement of resistance to turning and bears little relationship to the force clamping two components together.

So, I find myself really rather liking angle tightening as a procedure! It does have it's "hairy" moments though. Not too many years ago I had to do a head gasket on one of the small Fiats in the family. It has the 1.2 FIRE engine in it - in my opinion a very robust wee engine but it does have an Achilles heel which is that if allowed to overheat or even run with low coolant level it rewards you for your neglect by blowing the head gasket. Easy enough to avoid, just check coolant level once a week! How many do that these days though? Anyway, the job went well. Checked the head face and block deck very carefully with an engineers straight edge and decided it didn't even need a surface skim so reassembled with a new gasket. "Use once only" head bolts meant a set of new head bolts and then to tighten them. Snugged down to 30 NM to settle the head then further tighten by 90 degrees and then around them all again another 90 degrees. The sweat was breaking out on my brow for the second 90 degrees, every one of them felt like it was going to snap! But I realize now, having done some more fixings like this, that the "about to snap" feeling is really the bolt going to "torque to yield". Just getting used to a new "feel" I suppose? and "feel" is often what fixing cars is all about!

Edit. Torquing bleed nipples? maybe just a bit too "anul" for me

 

[RUM4MO]

Good stuff, I'm well, I think!

Torquing bleed nipples, well, it had to be done as I haven't yet found any other "small" fasteners to use it on, I even found a poly bag type tube to keep the brake fluid away from my new "not too high quality" (low) torque wrench.
Also, for the first time for a while, none of the Gunsons Eazibleeder pipe/tube junctions leaked brake fluid when I replaced the brake fluid on my car, so me "just happening" to buy a used Polo brake master cylinder complete with reservoir, a year or so ago worked out well - I use it to pressure test my many Gunsons Eazibleeder kits - and, after sealing up the reservoir cap venting system and adding red insulating tape to it - to avoid accidentally using it or leaving it fitted to a car, I can control the fluid loss when removing a brake calliper for servicing - win win! And I've still got the master cylinder stored away safely as well as the hall sensor for the brake light switching, just in case I need either of them to use while fault finding that brake light switching function.
So that is the brake fluid replaced in my car, wife's Polo is next and will get that done when I swop the summer/winter wheels over - very soon.
Then probably I'll feel the need to do the same to older daughter's 2019 Leon Cupra after giving it an oil change!
Then the task of absorbing all that used brake fluid into wood chippings so that I can correctly dispose of it in the household waste bin!

 

[Crossthreaded]

Good stuff, I'm well, I think!

Torquing bleed nipples, well, it had to be done as I haven't yet found any other "small" fasteners to use it on, I even found a poly bag type tube to keep the brake fluid away from my new "not too high quality" (low) torque wrench.
Also, for the first time for a while, none of the Gunsons Eazibleeder pipe/tube junctions leaked brake fluid when I replaced the brake fluid on my car, so me "just happening" to buy a used Polo brake master cylinder complete with reservoir, a year or so ago worked out well - I use it to pressure test my many Gunsons Eazibleeder kits - and, after sealing up the reservoir cap venting system and adding red insulating tape to it - to avoid accidentally using it or leaving it fitted to a car, I can control the fluid loss when removing a brake calliper for servicing - win win! And I've still got the master cylinder stored away safely as well as the hall sensor for the brake light switching, just in case I need either of them to use while fault finding that brake light switching function.
So that is the brake fluid replaced in my car, wife's Polo is next and will get that done when I swop the summer/winter wheels over - very soon.
Then probably I'll feel the need to do the same to older daughter's 2019 Leon Cupra after giving it an oil change!
Then the task of absorbing all that used brake fluid into wood chippings so that I can correctly dispose of it in the household waste bin!

Don't think I'm criticizing you for torquing them. I sometimes use a particular tool just because I like the feel of it in my hand. Over the last few years I've replaced a number of my oldest and most worn tools with slightly cheaper branded ones, like Bergen, Neilsen, etc which are quite adequate for the less intensive use my tools get these days but it feels "funny" using the new tools on familiar tasks. My old Britool, King ****, Gordon and Kampfman stuff just feels "right" by comparison.

When it was new, many years ago now, my gunson eezibleed worked very well but as it's aged it's become more of a liability than an asset. I tried to give it a complete refurb a couple of years ago but it wasn't very successful and I've pretty much given up with it. I much prefer power bleeding to vacuum bleeding though so I've been thinking of buying one of the more professional Sealey kits but as both myself and wife have health problems and the problems I'm having trying to sort out my deceased brother's estate, working on the cars has taken a bit of a back seat lately and I'm tending to just sort out problems as necessary rather than doing lots of preventive maintenance.

I have a big old plastic drum, maybe 35/40 litres? which I collect the old engine oil in and then do a trip to the council recycling with it when full. Wouldn't like it to be much bigger or I couldn't lift it! I'm very lucky with the small amounts of brake used fluid I accumulate over the year as I've found the small garages around me, where I'm a well known face and curry favour by recommending them to friends and neighbours, are happy to take the couple of litres or so and let me tip it into their used container.

The Panda is now reaching the age - 15 years old this year - where "stuff" is increasingly needing fixed. She's got the very common rear axle rust problem they all suffer from so going to need a complete axle maybe this year and there's other stuff I know about so I'm thinking of replacing her. Probably with one of the last 1.2 Pandas before they went over to the mild hybrid Firefly engine but I'm also tempted by the Suzuki Ignis, the engine of which is particularly interesting. I'm not so sure about stuff like the radio signal type TPM system with it's in wheel sensors rather than the more simple ABS based system we're familiar with on the VAG stuff. I think it has a D/M flywheel too, while the Fiat has a solid flywheel - ah well, lots of interesting research to do there. I'm also intrigued by the Dualjet engine which is a port injected jobbie, not Direct Injection and is not turbo charged - another plus in my book!

Anyway, nice to chat again, stay safe, kindest regards.

 

[RUM4MO]

Don't worry I didn't take that comment as criticism, this is the first time that I've tightened brake bleed nipples using a torque wrench - that new "small" torque wrench just HAD to be used, even if only for me to be able to say that I'd used it.
Where I will confess to slightly messing up the other new torque wrench was, I had it laying out beside my "next range down" Halfords/Norbar torque wrench, I had checked the ranges of both of them and had chosen the slightly older "next range down" as being most suitable for tightening the sump plug on my 2011 Audi S4, then set it to the correct value while waiting for the oil to stop dripping out of the sump, then fitted a new sealing washer to the sump plug, screwed it in by hand, then grabbed the torque wrench put the correct hex key socket onto it and tightened up the sump plug - but when I reached what I considered was "tight enough" - the torque wrench had not "clicked" - that worried me until I checked the torque wrench setting - it was set back at its minimum or "zero" value - I had picked up the wrong one out of two! Obviously I had not heard/felt the wrench clicking as it would have done that as soon as I started to tighten that sump plug! That sealing washer I used was sourced from ECP and came I think, from a respectable manufacturer, but it was made out of copper instead of the aluminium alloy that VW Group use - this type of sump drain plug sealing washer is a "rolled" type so not a thick solid one, it does not deform "nicely" like the original VW Group ones have done, or the same way that the "China sourced" ones do - I've used maybe 5 of these China sourced ones on the 2015 Polo with absolutely no problems, so maybe I should have just used one of them on my car, I think that the issue with the ECP sourced copper version is/are, either not a suitable thickness or alloy/quality of copper or a slight difference in dimensions than the VW Group original ones and the China sourced equivalents - so maybe just a case of the China sourced ones being good/suitable and the probably mainland Europe sourced ECP copper version not being quite good enough - so, anyone out there reading this, maybe give the ECP offering for a rolled type sealing washer, a wide berth, and aim to source only an aluminium alloy rolled version. Why I started avoiding the VW Group one was the crazy cost when compared with aftermarket versions, a slightly higher price I can stand - but there are limits.

Edit:- oh, and for when using DIYer pressure bleeders, The Herald newspaper, being a bigger format, makes a good screen/cover to absorb/deflect/contain any fluid that ends up escaping - though so far in my motoring lifetime, to date, I've never ever ended up with an actual leak spraying around, just weeping out onto blue roll placed to absorb it, hopefully it will stay that way if my refurbed Gunsons kit behaves!

 

[Crossthreaded]

Don't worry I didn't take that comment as criticism, this is the first time that I've tightened brake bleed nipples using a torque wrench - that new "small" torque wrench just HAD to be used, even if only for me to be able to say that I'd used it.
Where I will confess to slightly messing up the other new torque wrench was, I had it laying out beside my "next range down" Halfords/Norbar torque wrench, I had checked the ranges of both of them and had chosen the slightly older "next range down" as being most suitable for tightening the sump plug on my 2011 Audi S4, then set it to the correct value while waiting for the oil to stop dripping out of the sump, then fitted a new sealing washer to the sump plug, screwed it in by hand, then grabbed the torque wrench put the correct hex key socket onto it and tightened up the sump plug - but when I reached what I considered was "tight enough" - the torque wrench had not "clicked" - that worried me until I checked the torque wrench setting - it was set back at its minimum or "zero" value - I had picked up the wrong one out of two! Obviously I had not heard/felt the wrench clicking as it would have done that as soon as I started to tighten that sump plug! That sealing washer I used was sourced from ECP and came I think, from a respectable manufacturer, but it was made out of copper instead of the aluminium alloy that VW Group use - this type of sump drain plug sealing washer is a "rolled" type so not a thick solid one, it does not deform "nicely" like the original VW Group ones have done, or the same way that the "China sourced" ones do - I've used maybe 5 of these China sourced ones on the 2015 Polo with absolutely no problems, so maybe I should have just used one of them on my car, I think that the issue with the ECP sourced copper version is/are, either not a suitable thickness or alloy/quality of copper or a slight difference in dimensions than the VW Group original ones and the China sourced equivalents - so maybe just a case of the China sourced ones being good/suitable and the probably mainland Europe sourced ECP copper version not being quite good enough - so, anyone out there reading this, maybe give the ECP offering for a rolled type sealing washer, a wide berth, and aim to source only an aluminium alloy rolled version. Why I started avoiding the VW Group one was the crazy cost when compared with aftermarket versions, a slightly higher price I can stand - but there are limits.

Edit:- oh, and for when using DIYer pressure bleeders, The Herald newspaper, being a bigger format, makes a good screen/cover to absorb/deflect/contain any fluid that ends up escaping - though so far in my motoring lifetime, to date, I've never ever ended up with an actual leak spraying around, just weeping out onto blue roll placed to absorb it, hopefully it will stay that way if my refurbed Gunsons kit behaves!

Yes, I completely understand the compulsion to use a new tool. My CTEK battery charger, which I've had for some time, failed recently and it's taken me a wee bit of time to decide what to replace it with. Did I mention that two weeks ago I had a hip replacement? Anyway, I've not been able to drive the Scala since and it's to be 6 weeks minimum before I can try as the insurance forbids it before 6 weeks have passed - the operation and recovery is going so well that I suspect I will probably be capable before that but I'm not going to push it. My better half won't drive the Scala - she has her Panda - so I want to be able to keep the Scala's battery topped up which I would have done by just connecting the CTEK and letting it run in "maintenance mode". That's now not possible. I'm really a bit disappointed with the CTEK failing, but I thought I'd just replace it with another until I looked at what they now cost! So i started looking at others and one just seemed to jump out at me - The Ring RSC906 https://shop.ringautomotive.com/rsc906-6a-smart-battery-charger-maintainer.html Anyway, long story short, I bought one direct from Ring and it arrived very well packed and in pristine condition. The instruction sheet is entirely graphic - almost no text - which did take a few minutes to get my head round but it's actually very easy to use with 8 different charging programs, including one for Lithium LiFePO4 batteries and 6 and 12 volt options - the 6 volt I need for the horticultural stuff i mess about with and the very occasional motor cycle. It also runs an automatic diagnostic on any battery you connect to and initiates desulphation prior to charging if necessary and the charging itself is a 9 stage process with varying voltage and amperage being applied. It's actually a far more sophisticated bit of kit than I thought when I ordered it. Being a "Smart Charger" you can use it on vehicles without disconnecting the battery leads and they specifically recommend connecting the negative lead to a chassis earth not the battery negative to accommodate battery monitoring sensors on modern cars. I''ve been doing charging and jump starting like this for several years anyway. Of course I couldn't wait to try it out and I've now given the Panda a go on it with great success. Then I did both my service workshop batteries - my small one is a 50Ah and the more heavy duty is a 77Ah from my old Cordoba - bought new just weeks before she failed MOT on terminal rust of course, as you do. Then I connected it up to the Scala, positive charger lead to battery positive and negative charger lead to the shiny earth bolt on the bulkhead. The car has stood for over two weeks since last started and the initial display on the charger LED screen showed it at 12.3 volts. the new charger took most of the day to reach cut off and drop into "maintenance mode" which it's now very happily sitting doing. So, early days yet, and I don't know how durable it'll be - it feels nice and solid to handle - but I'm very pleased with my new purchase so far.

Hmm, ECP, I'm not a great fan. My "go to" is SRS ( now rebranded as NAPA Parts ) who are just down the road from me. I've been going to them ever since my friend's business - Edinburgh Motor Factors - closed down due to his ill health and I find them excellent and very helpful - Of course I'm a "weell kent face" there which probably helps. They used to sell all the usual good quality stuff - Mahle, Bosch, etc etc but are now part or the enormous NAPA empire and a lot of their stuff is now NAPA branded. I was unsure about this to start with but I've now been using NAPA stuff on the Fiats, Mazda 2 and Jazz (until it got written off) for over a year and it seems to be of good quality - Not on the new Scala of course. It's going to "uncle Arnie" until it's warranty expires and probably to AVW after that as it's just got too much "tech" stuff in it for me to be happy tackling it. I tried connecting my VAG-COM to it but most of the controllers just didn't connect and Grant, at Gendan, tells me I probably will need to do a major update of my interface and program if I want to get serious about it. The AVW option sounds best to me and I'll just fiddle about with the Panda, my old horticultural machines and the occasional old motor cycle - although I'm now forbidden, by "her indoors", from riding motor cycles ever again. At your age, she says, when you fall off (notice she says "when" not "if") you won't bounce, you'll just break!

 

[RUM4MO]

CTEK, yes, my first one a "Test and Charge" version of the 5amp offering, first let me down by quietly falling back in a safe low voltage charging output, so that was disappointing, I played about with it power cycling it etc and it recovered - that I only discovered a month later after I had bought a second 5amp one, just the normal "Charge" version this time.
One thing that I was doing, was just plugging it in after connecting it to the car and switching it on - the implication from CTEK was that it would would hold the previous settings/options - wrong, so now after powering them up, I immediately cycle once through all the setting/options and that seems to allow it to work okay - the second one did start behaving like that as well if not cycled through the options after initial switch on - that one started doing that just within its warranty period - but as I had bought it during covid lockdown and not from an authorised CTEK dealer, there would be no redress even while under warranty!
The 25amp CTEK charger/maintenance/supply unit still works well, it only gets used when I'd retracting the rear brakes on my S4 and daughter's Leon Cupra, the CTEK Battery Analyser also still seems to work okay when used at service time to test the batteries of the family cars - it is a bit of a pain unloading the S4's boot including space saver spare wheel to get onto the battery terminals, but surely better that than getting surprised when the battery dies, that Bosch AGM battery is rated as being 850Amp EN, it is maybe 4 years old and has been fitted into that 2011 S4 for 2.5 years and tests as being 935Amp EN - so that is okay, wife's 2015 Polo EFB shows to be dying slowly as does the EFB in the 2019 Leon Cupra .

I think that NAPPA has sneaked into the ECP's world as well - really I preferred when the original manufacturer's name was quoted on parts, though naïvely I'm sure that many of us have gone using that logic only to end up with some "reboxed/rebranded" items coming from manufacturers that we had tried to avoid.

Speaking of that reboxing/rebranding, I bought new front and rear springs for the 2015 Polo from Autodoc as they sell Lesjofors springs - Lesjofors is actually a steel wire manufacturer and uses their own materials to make the springs that they sell, and I seem to trust them. I fitted the rear springs stupidly without comparing the lengths - and the rear of the car sits 10>15mm lower than it should, which just means that it now sits level, anyway Lesjofors I later discovered by looking at their parts catalogue, don't claim that these springs fit a 5 door 1.2TSI - only a 3 door and GT versions of Polo - oh well! At least the front springs are correct for that car. Anyway, where this is leading to is, I had read about ECP "reboxing" some Lesjofors springs and selling them as Sachs in Sachs branded boxes, o maybe out of boredom or something, I had checked the Sachs website and they do sell the correct rear springs for that car, so I ordered in a pair from ECP at Turnhouse Road - as soon as I got them home I spotted that that box did not have the expected p/n on the label, but they did have a series of numbers that I immediately recognised as being Lesjofors! What a waste of time, so why do ECP bother to rebrand a product that has a good name already, for one that is an okay quality brand - and especially when the buyer can end up buying the wrong parts, beggars belief - I contacted ECP HQ "just explain to your local which Sachs p/n you need and they will order them in for you" - well that didn't happen, "not a Sachs p/n that we can order in", so they got returned! The original rear Sachs dampers that I bought for that 2015 Polo were also wrong going by the Sachs catalogue - but after having another chat with ECP HQ they found their stock number for the Sachs p/n that I said was the correct one, so another return and buying the new ones was needed! I'm out that way on Wednesdays so not a big issue, just annoying.

AVW, I have used them, but one thing annoys me about them is, even although VW Group say "replace" they just reuse fixings, I've still got to replace all the front subframe bolts and the lower brace bolts on my 2011 S4 after they just reused the originals when replacing the engine mountings, okay these new bolt £75, but if Audi say "replace" then why just ignore that as these bolts are "Torque to Yield" - just old fashioned or bad practice really.

I am a bit fussy about this as the 2015 Polo ended up getting its subframe bolts reused after warranty work - and maybe 4 years later the head "dropped off" one of them - luckily it fall off while the car was in the garage, otherwise that car would still be running around with one of the two subframe securing front bolts "gone". During that warranty work, Western VW at Kinnaird Park also replaced the top mounting on the NSF strut - getting the nuts off that strut was a fight when I replaced the front springs and struts etc last month - strut piston rod thread got wrecked from both the top nut and the lower threaded bush being probably hammered on using a rattle gun! Professionals? some of us have to live with their poor working knowledge or are they just lazy? The nuts on the OSF strut had not been worked on since initial assembly so they came off very easily as any other ones I've taken to bits. The plan for the 2015 Polo is to keep it for another 4 or 5 years and my experience with Ibiza and Polo is, if you get past 8 years without having one of two springs breaking due to rusting, then your lucky - this 2015 was 9 years old when I started replacing its springs etc, so I'm hoping that we'll avoid ending up with a broken road spring as they only happen when it causes too much inconvenience!

One last moan about parts, I checked these Lesjofors springs over well, and spotted that there was a common point on all 4 of these springs where there was no paint covering - I'm guessing that they are hung up using wire when being sprayed - so I sorted that out, which reminds me, the winter wheels on my 2011 Audi S4 I got re-powder coated before last winter, the first one has started leaking at the valve hole, this is probably a repeat of what happened when they got powder coated back in 2013 - again, it looked like the powder coater hangs the wheels up using a wire look through the valve hole, so they end up when completed that process having a small slot of bare alloy - which the winter road salt attacks - and then eventually air escapes - oh bother, at least this second time round I've added a 5th wheel, which I spotted that issue on when they came back to me as I had not at that time, bought a 5th tyre for that wheel, so it might come down to, one wheel swop, tyre off, repair the leak site, tyre back on, wheel back on to car - wait for the next one - or get clever and do the same for all 4 re-powder coated wheels! Keeps a retired person busy maybe?

 

[Crossthreaded]

CTEK, yes, my first one a "Test and Charge" version of the 5amp offering, first let me down by quietly falling back in a safe low voltage charging output, so that was disappointing, I played about with it power cycling it etc and it recovered - that I only discovered a month later after I had bought a second 5amp one, just the normal "Charge" version this time.
One thing that I was doing, was just plugging it in after connecting it to the car and switching it on - the implication from CTEK was that it would would hold the previous settings/options - wrong, so now after powering them up, I immediately cycle once through all the setting/options and that seems to allow it to work okay - the second one did start behaving like that as well if not cycled through the options after initial switch on - that one started doing that just within its warranty period - but as I had bought it during covid lockdown and not from an authorised CTEK dealer, there would be no redress even while under warranty!
The 25amp CTEK charger/maintenance/supply unit still works well, it only gets used when I'd retracting the rear brakes on my S4 and daughter's Leon Cupra, the CTEK Battery Analyser also still seems to work okay when used at service time to test the batteries of the family cars - it is a bit of a pain unloading the S4's boot including space saver spare wheel to get onto the battery terminals, but surely better that than getting surprised when the battery dies, that Bosch AGM battery is rated as being 850Amp EN, it is maybe 4 years old and has been fitted into that 2011 S4 for 2.5 years and tests as being 935Amp EN - so that is okay, wife's 2015 Polo EFB shows to be dying slowly as does the EFB in the 2019 Leon Cupra .

I think that NAPPA has sneaked into the ECP's world as well - really I preferred when the original manufacturer's name was quoted on parts, though naïvely I'm sure that many of us have gone using that logic only to end up with some "reboxed/rebranded" items coming from manufacturers that we had tried to avoid.

Speaking of that reboxing/rebranding, I bought new front and rear springs for the 2015 Polo from Autodoc as they sell Lesjofors springs - Lesjofors is actually a steel wire manufacturer and uses their own materials to make the springs that they sell, and I seem to trust them. I fitted the rear springs stupidly without comparing the lengths - and the rear of the car sits 10>15mm lower than it should, which just means that it now sits level, anyway Lesjofors I later discovered by looking at their parts catalogue, don't claim that these springs fit a 5 door 1.2TSI - only a 3 door and GT versions of Polo - oh well! At least the front springs are correct for that car. Anyway, where this is leading to is, I had read about ECP "reboxing" some Lesjofors springs and selling them as Sachs in Sachs branded boxes, o maybe out of boredom or something, I had checked the Sachs website and they do sell the correct rear springs for that car, so I ordered in a pair from ECP at Turnhouse Road - as soon as I got them home I spotted that that box did not have the expected p/n on the label, but they did have a series of numbers that I immediately recognised as being Lesjofors! What a waste of time, so why do ECP bother to rebrand a product that has a good name already, for one that is an okay quality brand - and especially when the buyer can end up buying the wrong parts, beggars belief - I contacted ECP HQ "just explain to your local which Sachs p/n you need and they will order them in for you" - well that didn't happen, "not a Sachs p/n that we can order in", so they got returned! The original rear Sachs dampers that I bought for that 2015 Polo were also wrong going by the Sachs catalogue - but after having another chat with ECP HQ they found their stock number for the Sachs p/n that I said was the correct one, so another return and buying the new ones was needed! I'm out that way on Wednesdays so not a big issue, just annoying.

AVW, I have used them, but one thing annoys me about them is, even although VW Group say "replace" they just reuse fixings, I've still got to replace all the front subframe bolts and the lower brace bolts on my 2011 S4 after they just reused the originals when replacing the engine mountings, okay these new bolt £75, but if Audi say "replace" then why just ignore that as these bolts are "Torque to Yield" - just old fashioned or bad practice really.

I am a bit fussy about this as the 2015 Polo ended up getting its subframe bolts reused after warranty work - and maybe 4 years later the head "dropped off" one of them - luckily it fall off while the car was in the garage, otherwise that car would still be running around with one of the two subframe securing front bolts "gone". During that warranty work, Western VW at Kinnaird Park also replaced the top mounting on the NSF strut - getting the nuts off that strut was a fight when I replaced the front springs and struts etc last month - strut piston rod thread got wrecked from both the top nut and the lower threaded bush being probably hammered on using a rattle gun! Professionals? some of us have to live with their poor working knowledge or are they just lazy? The nuts on the OSF strut had not been worked on since initial assembly so they came off very easily as any other ones I've taken to bits. The plan for the 2015 Polo is to keep it for another 4 or 5 years and my experience with Ibiza and Polo is, if you get past 8 years without having one of two springs breaking due to rusting, then your lucky - this 2015 was 9 years old when I started replacing its springs etc, so I'm hoping that we'll avoid ending up with a broken road spring as they only happen when it causes too much inconvenience!

One last moan about parts, I checked these Lesjofors springs over well, and spotted that there was a common point on all 4 of these springs where there was no paint covering - I'm guessing that they are hung up using wire when being sprayed - so I sorted that out, which reminds me, the winter wheels on my 2011 Audi S4 I got re-powder coated before last winter, the first one has started leaking at the valve hole, this is probably a repeat of what happened when they got powder coated back in 2013 - again, it looked like the powder coater hangs the wheels up using a wire look through the valve hole, so they end up when completed that process having a small slot of bare alloy - which the winter road salt attacks - and then eventually air escapes - oh bother, at least this second time round I've added a 5th wheel, which I spotted that issue on when they came back to me as I had not at that time, bought a 5th tyre for that wheel, so it might come down to, one wheel swop, tyre off, repair the leak site, tyre back on, wheel back on to car - wait for the next one - or get clever and do the same for all 4 re-powder coated wheels! Keeps a retired person busy maybe?

CTEK. Mine is the Multi XS 7000. But now, when powered up it switches on and lights up the power light (the one on the left) You can then toggle through the modes - row of lights at the bottom (normal, frost, supply and recond) but, when you select any mode it then doesn't make the jump to activating itself.

AVW are my emergency go to folk. Alan is married to a very good friend's daughter and he/they have helped me out in the past by pressing wheel bearings out of hubs and stuff like that. They did the cambelt on the EA211 engined Ibiza for me and gave me all the parts back in the boxes so I know they renewed the torque to yield bolts. Haven't had anything like a subframe done by them. My youngest boy takes his A4 Avant to Autohaus and they did a big service and renewed the rubber spring bushes on the rear axle before he went down to Devon with it last spring. I ran him out to collect the car and was quite impressed with them. Took a good look at what they'd done before he set off and all looked very "professional" They've advised him the top ball joints on the front suspension have perished boots and will probably need doing for MOT this coming year. Having watched the air turn blue around these cars when someone is doing that job I'll not be volunteering to do it for him!

The panda wheels are getting pretty crusty - they're steel - and, if she gets through her MOT, I've been thinking of getting them media blasted and repainted. I've been recommended to use Henderson's at Jocks Lodge, Know anything about them - good quality work, cheap/expensive, etc? I wouldn't have thought about the problem caused by how the wheel is hung up for spraying but can absolutely see what you're saying. Strangely I went out to the Panda the other day and it's N/S/R tyre was flat. I took the wheel off, reinflated it and brushed all over with dilute washing up liquid looking for bubble evidence of leak. No bubbles seen so let it rest for a half hour and rechecked. no loss of pressure, strange? anyway, refitted to the car and it's held the pressure absolutely fine for nearly two and a half weeks now - so what was that all about? Some plonker let it down overnight for laughs?

By the way, forgot to mention crush washers. I've got a goodly selection of both copper and aluminium flat washers in differing diameters and tend to indiscriminately use either. I remember the kind of "hollow" washer you're describing and seem to remember they were very popular on spark plugs? I haven't even looked at what the Scala uses yet but, as it's another EA211 series unit it probably is going to use a sump plug like the Ibiza had (and the old 1.9 PD) which has a captive steel washer and it's recommended to renew the plug and washer each time although I found you can reuse them very satisfactorily more than once. The wee Fiats have a taper plug which doesn't use a washer at all so the "washer box" doesn't see the light of day very often these days.

 

[RUM4MO]

The hollow washers yes quite a bit like the old crush washers on spark plugs but the material when new is rolled so that the washer looks round in profile, I think that the copper ones that ECP sell have a plastic sort of covering on the inner face of the copper, I spotted that after overtightening the first one when I messed up with the wrong "set at zero" torque wrench. From Factory, VW Group at least, used to fit these drain plugs with the captive washer, but nowadays the official workshop manual says to bin that at first service and fit a bare new plug and fit a round sealing washer to it - and probably bin that new bare plug at every service going forward, which doesn't seem like being a smart idea, I tend just to replace the crushed round washer.

Leaking steel wheel, a drinking ex-work friend's wife has a maybe 12 year old Micra, one wheel lost a lot of air, he pumped it back up and it was okay for maybe a month and it went down again, so he pumped it back up and took it to KwikFit for them to fix, they called him in to have a look, it was the welded seam in the centre of the wheel that had corroded and causing that leak!!! He think that he planned to replace all the wheels with a cheap set bought new, I'd never heard of that happening before - nor had he.

Autohaus, I visited them once to ask about getting some work done, and probably dismissed them due to them being APR agents - though I made that wrong assumption about Star Performance in Fife, ie I initially had considered that they only handled performance associated work - but I was wrong so tended to use them for cambelts and lower arm bush converting to Cupra solid rubber ones as many people did to Polo etc "back then" - a very good mode for reliability and drivability. I did like the area that Autohaus has there, but then that area was converted for that sort of use whereas AVW are limited to what they have now and their parking areas are quite a bit tight, which is a pity but I'm sure it works for them. I always thought that Autohaus was being a bit cheeky when they were located on Gorgie Road, just along from Sloans who was my VW dealer of choice for work and spares being that I worked at Robertson Avenue prior to it shutting down, so I knew the area, Autohaus should suit my better for getting work done as I'm out that side of Edinburgh. It's good that there is enough work around Edinburgh to keep these VAG Indies in business. I have a feeling that Autohaus is a franchise or at least West coast based - but also over this side.

I just wish that I had had a better experience from using AVW, sometimes you get the feeling that you have found a good honest workshop that can deal with your car - then it turns not to be quite like that, I'm not pleased/happy to say that, they are still honest though, but really didn't initially fully understand the parts situation wrt aftermarket, for my car, I had worked that out prior to booking it in and told/alerted them about it, but I was gently ignored and that caused a lot of lost time and toing and froing to take car away until they got parts and then I took ownership of sourcing the parts myself, just a few silly errors in the process, but the customer tends to remember the low points and to add to that re-using the important subframe securing bolts. I'm not saying that I'll never use them again, but that experience is ingrained in my mind going forward unfortunately, not what I had expected to happen sadly.

I have not used that place that you mentioned for getting wheels coated, my first powder coater was at the edge of Loanhead just beside Costco, so I used them as they were easy to get to, they seemed have vanished so I found maybe Pentland Powder Coaters behind Lasswade for the second powder coating.

 

[Crossthreaded]

Leaking steel wheel, a drinking ex-work friend's wife has a maybe 12 year old Micra, one wheel lost a lot of air, he pumped it back up and it was okay for maybe a month and it went down again, so he pumped it back up and took it to KwikFit for them to fix, they called him in to have a look, it was the welded seam in the centre of the wheel that had corroded and causing that leak!!! He think that he planned to replace all the wheels with a cheap set bought new, I'd never heard of that happening before - nor had he.

I've given some thought to doing that. Seems to be a number of companies offering new pattern made wheels at around the cost of getting the original wheels refurbished. I'm just not quite sure about quality of these products.

Autohaus, I visited them once to ask about getting some work done, and probably dismissed them due to them being APR agents - though I made that wrong assumption about Star Performance in Fife, ie I initially had considered that they only handled performance associated work - but I was wrong so tended to use them for cambelts and lower arm bush converting to Cupra solid rubber ones as many people did to Polo etc "back then" - a very good mode for reliability and drivability. I did like the area that Autohaus has there, but then that area was converted for that sort of use whereas AVW are limited to what they have now and their parking areas are quite a bit tight, which is a pity but I'm sure it works for them. I always thought that Autohaus was being a bit cheeky when they were located on Gorgie Road, just along from Sloans who was my VW dealer of choice for work and spares being that I worked at Robertson Avenue prior to it shutting down, so I knew the area, Autohaus should suit my better for getting work done as I'm out that side of Edinburgh. It's good that there is enough work around Edinburgh to keep these VAG Indies in business. I have a feeling that Autohaus is a franchise or at least West coast based - but also over this side.

Don't really know much about Autohaus yet - but I'm sure that'll change as my boy's going to use them for his Audi. APR? I think they do performance stuff? but that's all I know of them. I was impressed with the workers folk I talked to though. I liked the way I could talk to workshop mechanics whereas AVW have a front desk which is quite difficult to get past. Luckily Alan lives near me so, if I'm really desperate, I can call him up or even go round to his for advice but I keep this to an absolute minimum as I know how annoying this can be. The big problem for me, if I wanted to use Autohaus, is how difficult it is for me to get there on public transport if they were doing something I had to leave the car with them for. AVW I just get on the No8 (ten minute walk from the house) and get off right outside their door.

I just wish that I had had a better experience from using AVW, sometimes you get the feeling that you have found a good honest workshop that can deal with your car - then it turns not to be quite like that, I'm not pleased/happy to say that, they are still honest though, but really didn't initially fully understand the parts situation wrt aftermarket, for my car, I had worked that out prior to booking it in and told/alerted them about it, but I was gently ignored and that caused a lot of lost time and toing and froing to take car away until they got parts and then I took ownership of sourcing the parts myself, just a few silly errors in the process, but the customer tends to remember the low points and to add to that re-using the important subframe securing bolts. I'm not saying that I'll never use them again, but that experience is ingrained in my mind going forward unfortunately, not what I had expected to happen sadly.

That experience would stay with me too and the reuse of stretch bolts worries me. However my own experience of using them has been good, maybe because I'm a well known face there - I think they're quite amused by this wrinkly old duffer who seems to know more about stuff like O2 sensors, MAP and MAF sensors, ABS systems and sensors, etc, etc than most of their customers and can hold an intelligent conversation with them about these things? I also know a number of the locals who use them and are "happy bunnies". Still concerns me to hear about the reuse of stretch bolts though.

I have not used that place that you mentioned for getting wheels coated, my first powder coater was at the edge of Loanhead just beside Costco, so I used them as they were easy to get to, they seemed have vanished so I found maybe Pentland Powder Coaters behind Lasswade for the second powder coating.

Thanks for the heads up for Pentland Powder Coating. My youngest boy lives in Newtongrange which makes using them a viable option as I could combine it with visiting him which we do a couple of times a week to babysit the grand kids.

 

[RUM4MO]

The just buying new replacement wheels thing, MyTyres and other tend to use a couple of established brands of steel wheels, mainly I suppose because on mainland Europe needing to fit winter tyres is a legal requirement for some and essential for others if travelling to the ski slopes, so the prices are okay for lots of European car brands, but as this ex-work friend's wife's car is a Nissan, it is a completely different story as he discovered, so that was why he found it tricky to get a single wheel in good condition from a scrappy - or buy one new from a 3rd party seller.

I've never checked the price difference if any, but I wonder if getting steels blasted clean and sprayed with paint instead of powder coating is any cheaper as it misses out using the oven. The VW alloys that I bought in 2nd hand from Germany (eBay) and use on the 2015 Polo, from new will probably be 11 years old and they have been on the Polo every winter since 2015, are looking a bit sorry for themselves, they might/should be refurbished next summer I think. Pentland Powder Coaters seem to do a lot industrial stuff as well, ie "stuff" that has been fabricated locally gets taken to them for finishing, as well as car/truck bits

AVW, yes getting past the front desk is normally tricky so I just give trying that a miss as I understand that someone should be paying for the time that I'm about to "steal" to chat about how the job went and any other comments about the car in general.
Going back to when I first used AVW maybe 7years ago, maybe business was slower and frequently it was the guy that tested the car - MOT, that ended up dealing with the paying and collecting so he did talk about the car while doing the paying paperwork, but as you say, nowadays these front desk jobs are being done away from the workshop guys. Really the same for the garage I take my wife's Polo to for MOTs, ie Leadburn Garage - the owner seems to be a good honest guy, and is hands on, but I respect that he has other things to take care of at the end of a working day, so just keep words to a minimum, I just don't want to take up his time, I did mean to ask him if he gets money for his scrap parts as I had a couple of pairs of old discs - but I didn't, I'd rather he got a small bit of cash for them than the council did, but maybe the deal is that his scrap is removed FOC so no money changes hands.

 

[Crossthreaded]

The just buying new replacement wheels thing, MyTyres and other tend to use a couple of established brands of steel wheels, mainly I suppose because on mainland Europe needing to fit winter tyres is a legal requirement for some and essential for others if travelling to the ski slopes, so the prices are okay for lots of European car brands, but as this ex-work friend's wife's car is a Nissan, it is a completely different story as he discovered, so that was why he found it tricky to get a single wheel in good condition from a scrappy - or buy one new from a 3rd party seller.

I've never checked the price difference if any, but I wonder if getting steels blasted clean and sprayed with paint instead of powder coating is any cheaper as it misses out using the oven. The VW alloys that I bought in 2nd hand from Germany (eBay) and use on the 2015 Polo, from new will probably be 11 years old and they have been on the Polo every winter since 2015, are looking a bit sorry for themselves, they might/should be refurbished next summer I think. Pentland Powder Coaters seem to do a lot industrial stuff as well, ie "stuff" that has been fabricated locally gets taken to them for finishing, as well as car/truck bits

I've been thinking about asking what just the blast cleaning would cost and then painting them with something like Frost chassis black enamel which I've found in the past to be very durable. I've very little experience of how durable powder coating is and I have the impression it's quite easily chipped? But maybe I'm wrong on that? I have a decent compressor 14cfm (which is probably around 11CFM free air delivery so spraying them myself is definitely an option.

AVW, yes getting past the front desk is normally tricky so I just give trying that a miss as I understand that someone should be paying for the time that I'm about to "steal" to chat about how the job went and any other comments about the car in general.
Going back to when I first used AVW maybe 7years ago, maybe business was slower and frequently it was the guy that tested the car - MOT, that ended up dealing with the paying and collecting so he did talk about the car while doing the paying paperwork, but as you say, nowadays these front desk jobs are being done away from the workshop guys. Really the same for the garage I take my wife's Polo to for MOTs, ie Leadburn Garage - the owner seems to be a good honest guy, and is hands on, but I respect that he has other things to take care of at the end of a working day, so just keep words to a minimum, I just don't want to take up his time, I did mean to ask him if he gets money for his scrap parts as I had a couple of pairs of old discs - but I didn't, I'd rather he got a small bit of cash for them than the council did, but maybe the deal is that his scrap is removed FOC so no money changes hands.

I looked at setting up on my own when younger - I had a lot of BMC/BL experience - and took business advice. What rapidly became apparent was exactly how "seriously" you wanted to get. You can set up a wee "hole in the wall" outfit pretty cheaply and just work away, maybe you and another, and make a daily crust. or you can go at it seriously in which case you'll quite quickly reach the stage where you've got to get professional. It's at this point where you've got to keep customers from slowing workers down. so you need a "front man" like Alan and Keith at AVW now have. Also there's only so much money one or two men can bring in so, if you want to make money you need to employ more workers and get maximum productivity from them because you'll want to employ people who really know what they are doing which means paying good money. When I look at it, that's the way they've gone. There was just the two of them - and, I think an "apprentice" - to start with and I could wander into the workshop and chat or ask advice, sometimes they would even interrupt what they were doing, like the time Allen removed a corroded wheel bearing circlip from a hub I'd taken in with me and then pressed the old bearing out and the new one in! What must that have done to his work schedule for that day? Probably someone didn't get their car back? Wouldn't happen now I'm sure. Then another qualified man joined and the "proper " reception desk was set up and the new "MOT" building at the back. Now there's people in there I've never spoken too and don't know from Adam. One thing I do know though is that they only employ very well trained workers, often "Master Mechanics" I believe. Personally I have confidence they know what they are doing and I'll continue to use them - although at only a couple of years short of 80 and with the government talking about all this regulation of older drivers, I don't know how much longer I'll have need of them!

On the other hand, with my workshop background, it's just so much fun to walk into Kenny Harrisons fiat garage or maybe Steven's Honda setup, both in Leith, and stand in the workshop talking about what a bitch such and such a job is to do or about how none of us would dream of buying an electric car anytime soon

 

[RUM4MO]

The only worry or concern that I have about powder coating is that it will be a lot harder than paint, so if a wheel flexes slightly then that could cause a crack in the coating - maybe not a valid concern in reality.

I have had my S4's winter wheels powder coated since October 2013, okay due to the issue around the valve holes, they needed re-coating last year, but there was no signs of any break up on the surface. It will always be a thicker coating than you would end up from applying adequate amounts of spray paint - though mainly that just means that you have to clean the centre bore back so that the wheels fit onto the hub - and there is always, in my case, plenty aluminium loaded grease around that centre area that will stop any corrosion starting in winter - though that car of mine only "sees" 1000miles or so in winter as it is a total pain in the bottom to clean as it is "Deep Sea Blue Pearl"!

Aye, the conversion away from internal combustion power - not a happy thought! Never mind, plenty work left for mechanics, wheel bearings, brakes and suspension all of which must be taking a hammering until EV designers have caught up with how heavy cars behave. Also plenty work for civil engineers sorting out collapsing multi storey carparks!