Coilover obession - Why do you really want coilovers???

[Willie]

Wilko, which coilovers did you have fitted from Balance?
What did it cost you to have the car corner weighted?
How long did it take to corner weight and what was the final % front and rear weight split?

 

[Wilko]

Ballance fitted colovers from a company called gecko. It's a rebound adjustable kit. It looks good quality, and it certainly works.
They had the car a week, so I don't know how long the work took, but it ended up something like 56% front, 54% rear, and 49% NS 51%OS with a 90kg driver only on board.

The grip levels compared to the eibach kit is phenominal, thogh wishbone position corection may have had a big influence.

 

[DPJ]

John, do you think I should sort my hubs and arms out (TT?LCR) before I get it corner weighted?

 

[Wilko]

I would dave.
Parts are around 150-200 from scrappy and you're more than capable of fitting.
You can get a bit of negative camber at the front too.

Get the company who corner weight it to set camber, castor angles, droop etc.

Standard angles are not necessarily best.

Any decent motorsport prep outfit should be able to advise best compromise for your goals

 

[warren_cox]

It's a shame your so far North Dave, RSD in Daventry are great at setting up suspension. Sorted out my Lupo GTi on H&R's when it was close to undrivable. The guy there worked for a rally outfit for years and is very astute.

 

[wild willy]

Great thread, but the more i read about suspension the more questions i seem to need answered. It appears more complicated than engine tuning which is better understood.
I'm after a system that handles great, does not compromise comfort levels and doesn't drop the front more than 20mm on a LCR as the standard system is low enough to rip the front splitter off. Am i seeking an impossible solution. (taking arbs and braces out of the equation)

 

[Willie]

Na Willy, I think your goals are wholley achievable.
20mm drop in the LCR will be perfect and will give a better look too (although I know this is not your full intention). When investigating the LCR's best handling set up I was told by many members that the best for the LCR was to drop it 20mm on coilovers with ARB's and bang you've got the best. I'm a bit more into the mechanics of what makes the 20mm drop the perfect amount for the LCR.
I'll eventually be getting coilovers and getting it corner weighted, hopefully this should allow better understanding of the mechanics behind the problem. But if you want the best then ARB's, with strutt brace and corner weighted coilovers should see you alright. Not cheap but as Wilko said, his MK4 Golf, which is not known for its handling grace was running circles around his dads Porker.

 

[m0rk]

 

[UncleFester]

Having now driven an LCR ..... i'm thinking an LCR / R32 front subframe with bushes and arms etc would be a nicer addition to my car than coilovers or new suspension.

I going to assume this is an easy enough swap but will require different front ARB and maybe different front shocks?

 

[m0rk]

I *think* the subframe is the same, but the hub carriers & ARB (and struts) make the 'dynamic' handling (as it was sold as)

 

[UncleFester]

I *think* the subframe is the same, but the hub carriers & ARB (and struts) make the 'dynamic' handling (as it was sold as)

The more i dig into this ... the more i think an LCR is a suitable next 'upgrade' tbh or i just leave the derv as it is for now. Maybe i just need a set of gold plated cheap coliovers to replace my decent shocks and springs

 

[Adam R]

if i could turn back time... i would get better shocks and dampers...

coilovers are great but just not worth the hassle.

 

[Willie]

Having now driven an LCR ..... i'm thinking an LCR / R32 front subframe with bushes and arms etc would be a nicer addition to my car than coilovers or new suspension.

I going to assume this is an easy enough swap but will require different front ARB and maybe different front shocks?

The subframe of the LCR has different rear bushes (not the wish bone ones), the LCR ones are two piece and the LC/TDI ones are one piece.
The LCR subframe with R32 23mm front ARB and lower strutt brace will give you very veyr nice handling characteristics.

 

[AusCupra]

I'd better add my two bobs worth to this cracking thread...

Motorsport bought us the coilover... Having worked in the industry long enough to know the benefits and also the down falls to coilovers (just ask Petter Solberg of what can go wrong)

Manufacturers spend Millions on R & D and testing of new cars... Yes they usually come to a compromise with ride quality, handling, etc.. But remember there usually making a car for the masses!

Suspension companies such as Ohlins, SACHS, Eibach, Reiger spend equal millions on motorsport and R & D to perfect the fastest way around a circuit and or rally stage...

Before choosing a set up, decide what you want first? Do you use the car everyday? Is a weekend toy / track day special?

This therefore should give you an idea of what you'll need... Care should be taken then when choosing your set up be it coilovers on springs and dampers...

As I've had vast experience with the Subaru community it astounds me as to what people will fit to a car (cost is usually a deciding factor over quality or suitability) As someone who sold £10K set's of Ohlins dampers there a reason these are £10K not £600 for a set... Look at track history, this will give you an idea of the quality of a Coilover.

TEIN for instance are very good coilovers, designed and manufactured (mostly) for smooth Japanese roads and race tracks... If your using the car every day then you'll just rattle the car and yourself to pieces!

Remember when choosing a coilover setup your buying into a motorsport derived product... it is less reliable, higher maintinece than a damper / spring combination...

I struggle in these times to sell £2K sets of either Exe-tc or AST coilovers due to the influx of cheap coilovers... Are they a better product? Not really, some I've never heard of before.. What happens when one starts to leak and or you need it repaired? New set usually!
Quality from coilovers from Eibach. AST, Exe-tc, Ohlins etc can be repaired, or re shimmed to suit various requirements. And there is usually a dealer local that can sort this out for you.

Back to Petter Solberg. He's a professional driver, world champion in his field... Most professional drivers can give feed back to engineers to refine, develop a set up! Why is Petter my case... He used to get lost with setups, changes he would make at the start of a stage would result in slower times and an ill handling Impreza.. More setup options the more chance most of us as punters have of going wrong and ruining a good car!

Apologies for the rant. Just remember what your looking for from your car and what you use it for to determine the correct or best suspension setup.. And ALWAYS have it setup by a professional in the field of suspension!

 

[Willie]

Very good post there bud.
Any chance of revealing who you work for and what truely are good coilovers for £1,000?

 

[DOLBY]

good thread this

 

[Tim@Advent]

Suspension is one of the more 'mythical' parts of car tuning to most. Yet in reality its not so complicated once you get your head round the understanding of it all (and sometimes it seems to defy logic!)

To the chap above the wanted to know the spring poundage of his car - bring the car in to us - we'll pop a damper/spring off and test them for you - you'd be amazed at the variation you'll find in a 'fixed' spring - road car springs are as you might suspect not always the greatest quality and you'll find a degree of variance between springs, side to side and corner to corner.


In short are coilovers better than a spring and damper combination - yes. But they are equally often an unnecessary over kill on a road car as you are simply not using the car to the extent that you gain the maximum benefit from the upgrade. Coilovers feel different for a number of reasons - most likely is that your coilover kit, just as your uprated spring and damper kit will, has increased spring poundages - effectively the force required to compress the spring. Increased spring poundages can lead to a 'crashy' ride, but the spring is their to control the damper underneath it - effectively the spring acts as a measure against the damper. Most road cars are fitted with 'progressive' springs - as are most uprated damper kits - these might be familiar to you as you'll see the spring will tighten up and the coils get closer as the spring moves to one end. The effect of this is the the spring poundage is not consistent - it gets harder as the spring is compressed meaning it soaks up the small bumps but trys to hold the car firmly when cornering hard. A coilover (not always but majoritively) is fitted with a constant spring - particularly when they are increased poundage this can leave a ride feeling harsh and non compliant over bumps. But on a circuit or a road when driving hard a constant spring gives you more control over the car and restricts roll and weight transfer.

Generally but not always coilover will be damping adjustable, just as your uprated kit might be. Damping adjustment is generally '2 way' this means 'Bump' and 'Rebound'. Simply put, bump adjustment controls the valving of the damper during compression meaning the speed the damper adjusts to impacts or compression from cornering. Rebound is the speed the damper returns from that impact or compression. Many road coilovers a 'ratio' adjustable - meaning that bump and rebound are adjustable in a fixed ratio of say 2:1. Thus if you soften the damping 2 clicks it adjusts the bump by half the amount of the rebound. I won't go into the effects of bump and rebound because I'll be here all night and I want to go home! But if you're interested there is some good stuff on the net about it.

Lastly, and the main difference, a coilover is height adjustable - meaning you can control ride height (for those that want to 'slam' their cars usually the most important bit!), rake and corner weights. Rake is the front to rear stance - i.e. nose down or arse down! It moves the centre of gavity around in the car and can make a significant impact on the handling characteristic - including promoting under steer or over steer. Ride height - the theory says a low centre of gravity is good so wind those coilies down - however on many VAG platforms this effects the 'roll centre' of the car. Additionally you also shorten the damper travel and place more reliance on the spring - not always a good thing and part of the reason that so many really decked cars feel so damn awful to drive on the road! A coilover kit also allows corner weight adjustment. Not often in a car is everything distributed equally (its got the driver on one side to start with!) and thus the weight applied to each wheel is not often equal - balancing this weight can significantly improve the characteristics of the car. Ideally in a FWD car you want to balance the car accross the front (those with the largest weight) and get the rears as close as possible. Its not usually possible to balance all 4 wheels perfectly but you can get it pretty close. Corner weights are adjusted through ride height and work on the theory that each and every force has and equal and opposite force - thus on occasions defying logic by increasing the weight on that corner by increasing the ride height of the corner (a spring under greater compression exerts more force onto the road).

Tracking also plays a major part - the 'toe' angles of the car (the angle in and out of the front of the wheels from the parallel) as does camber (the vertical angle in and out from parallel). These factors can be adjusted regardless of your suspension set up and you could find some big changes.

So yes - I believe that a coilover is a better set up - but how many are really going to test them on a road - not many probably

 

[Tim@Advent]

Oh and don't forget to uprate your bushes if you're changing your suspension - there is no point going to nice firm springs/dampers only to find your dampers and still floating about in tired rubber bushes!

 

[DOLBY]

tim, good write up mate,
i have a question will it be better for my rebound to be set exactly the same as my bump? or are you saying the rebound should always be slightly less than the bump?...only asking cos my bump is set on half comfort front and half comfort rear but the rebound is slightly firm on the front.....any advice welcomed...

not too fussed on comfort want a more controlled ride

 

[warren_cox]

and therein lies the problem Tim, most people are fitting bargain basement coilovers which I personally believe are outperformed by equivalent priced less complex spring damper combo's, and in many cases go on to fit them themselves! Plus they often don't do the top mounts, ball joints, or uprate/replace other suspension bushes. The overly harsh ride will result in increased TCS activity (power loss), less handling and balance, lower grip, and poor wet weather performance. In many cases they have spend good money on other power mods which are then compromised. Pride will make some justify their choice, but it is their money.