2017 Leon 1.4 fr not starting fuel from engine

[stepp]

Hi


My 2017 didn't start today and is leaking fuel from the engine.

The AA has got it to a closed garage and said it sounds like the fuel rail.

I had it serviced at Seat a month ago who did a major service.

Has anyone heard of anything like this happening, the car has only done 25000 miles it's the 1.4 150 version.

Thanks

 

[RUM4MO]

A guess, but an easy one, Skoda did not torque up the HP fuel rail properly during initial assembly, and now the head of the bolt nearest the RHS of the car, that secures the fuel rail and injectors, has eventually snapped off. Typical cost at VW Group workshop £600+ typical cost at a non VW Group workshop £400.

Will VW Group help out money wise, I'd doubt it!

Edit:- "the word is" Skoda knew about this and took recovery action on the assembly line tooling, they must know roughly the "time frame" in engine production when this could have happened, and I'm guessing that a safe "time frame" is end 2015 to mid 2017 maybe even a shorter time frame.

So if this is what has happened to your car, and many other EA211 engined cars with engines manufactured within that rough guessed time frame, don't you feel that VW Group should have checked ALL EA211 engines produced during that time frame ASAP and so stopped most of this happening?

Please keep us updated, thanks.

 

[stepp]

Thanks for the reply.

Have googled the fault and yes you are correct, that seems like the exact fault with it, I'm going to the garage to pop the bonnet and take a look as it was so dark last night even the AA guy couldn't see much.

I'm also going to go to Seat today where I have had it serviced since I had it however the car is at a different garage so no doubt seat will not want to know.

Will keep you updated.

 

[stepp]

Seat didn't have any technicians there today. They said they have never heard of the problem and advised me to get the car to them. also said if another garage touches it then they would not be responsible for it.

The AA wont move it again as its at a garage and its a 1 shot recovery.

Not sure what to do, pay to get it moved to Seat, or let the independent garage fix it as I really need the car for work.

I don't have any warranty on it so I cant see Seat repairing it for nothing anyway.

Nightmare !

 

[RUM4MO]

I'd think that a lot of people that have had this issue across the VW Group marques, will have ended up doing what you had to do and had it taken to the nearest garage which 9 times out of 10 - or even more, will not be a VW Group dealership.

I'm also quite certain that, going by other's stories/experiences that while VW Group want to lure you in, they will just empty your wallet, so leaving it where it is and getting that garage to buy in a set of seals and bolts and do the job the way it should have been done at the Skoda engine plant, will sort this out.

Edit:- this is yet another reason why car owners do not trust main dealers, they just seem to go on and on handing out the usual "I've never heard of that happening before" when in reality they are being faced with a well known issue concerning EA211 built around that period in time.

One example that I can remember from personal experience was on a 1984 Ford Orion Ghia Injection, the heater matrix started leaking, luckily under warranty, when I quizzed the service reception about this well known issue "I've heard heard about that happening", as I walked out I asked at the parts department about buying a new heater matrix - "sorry they are on back order" - and I guessed that the reason why would be that the demand from garages was higher than anticipated due to this "burst" of failures, so service reception were just buying time and wasting mine. They did eventually source a replacement after 4 weeks!

 

[stepp]

Yeah the guy at Seat just made me feel like I was complaining they hadn't serviced the car correctly.

I wasn't I just wanted to ask whether something "may" have been overlooked as they did a major service in 40 mins !....they also forgot to stamp my service booklet which was on the front seat and also set the service interval on the wrong plan, so I had to go back and get them to sort that out.

When I asked him how long a major service took he said it depends on whether its a person with lots of experience or a new guy !

I'm sure this fault is nothing to do with the service though and even if it was they would worm their way of it.

I will see what this garage says in the morning and let you know what happens.

Thanks for the help

 

[xyz]

Glad I’ve seen this as my wife has an Ibiza 66 plate FR 150 that has this engine I think.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[RUM4MO]

Glad I’ve seen this as my wife has an Ibiza 66 plate FR 150 that has this engine I think.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'd hope that if you grab the RHS end of the high pressure fuel rail, maybe by the fuel pressure sensor, and pull it away from the engine and push it towards the engine, if you feel/hear any free movement, then your car has incorrectly torqued fuel rail bolts and needs them replaced and this time torqued down correctly. That is just an educated guess as these fuel rails, when they have been secured down correctly, should solid "solid" and it is always the bolts slackening off that allow the head of the most RHS bolt to eventually snap off and then that end of the solid fuel rail is free to move up and stop sealing the injector fuel supply.

 

[stepp]

Garage couldn't help me so I got Seat to recover it to them. They just rang and said do I authorise them to strip it down further, 2 hours labour charge so far but they didn't say what it was yet.......

 

[RUM4MO]

I'm surprised that the labour is so high, sounds a bit close to 4 hours in total - though I've never attempted that job, the inlet air/water intercooler will need moved slightly to get access and maybe a bit more.
From other posts, it seems that the parts cost roughly £85 and the total costs for a proper VW Group Indie is roughly £390 and from a VW Group workshop £600+ - this if it is the "loose bolts, or incorrectly torqued bolts from engine assembly plant" will be a one off repair down completely to Skoda engine plant messing up, so anyone paying for this is not paying for an expected failure but Skoda failing to assemble that engine correctly.

I this happened to me I'll be squealing in public, but there is so much incompetence in ombudsman and consumer protection agencies in this country that once again VW Group will get off with it.

 

[stepp]

I haven't got the car back yet they are waiting on the parts, but it is as expected this is their description :

" Major fuel leak from injector 4 seal news seals required and 4 fuel rail bolts found bolt 4 loose "

That was £90.38

So I'm expecting a bill of 2 hours labour charge ( no idea how much they charge ) plus the 90.38.

Not happy really as it does seem like a manufacturing fault and a dangerous one at that, so isn't really something I should have to pay for !

They haven't heard the last of me though.

I'm wondering if small claims court would work.

Also asked Seat for the old seals and bolts ( lets see if they haven't already thrown them away ) , I have also filed a safety defect on the GOV website with as much info as I have gathered.

 

[RUM4MO]

I was expecting the leakage to come from injector 1, the fuel rail, at least on the 1.2TSI is secured "solidly" to the high pressure fuel pump which is on the LHS of the engine, after that it heads across to the RHS of the engine passing over and securing down the injectors 4, 3, 2 and lastly 1 and the "free" end has a pressure sensor screwed into it, the 4 bolts are fixed 2 above and 2 below the centre line of the injectors equally spaced, so normally the untorqued correctly bolt most at risk of snapping its head off is the most RHS one - but obviously not in your case. All that is just academic as a failure is failure!

 

[stepp]

Well I got the car back today along with a bag of the broken parts ( looks like a few split seals and some washers )

Total cost £603 ! For something that should never of happened.

To say I'm not happy is an understatement.

I'm going to write to Seat UK head office and see what they have to say.


This PDF ( from the US ) i think its the same engine? shows how the recall is done over there, so why isn't it being done over here?

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2020/RCRIT-20V648-7026.pdf

 

[Walone]

This PDF ( from the US ) i think its the same engine? shows how the recall is done over there, so why isn't it being done over here?

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2020/RCRIT-20V648-7026.pdf

Because their consumer protection laws are much stronger, and Class Action damages are punitive!
I've seen other recalls done by VW group in North America but not in UK.
Thanks for posting the recall PDF, I have the same engine 2016 MY.

 

[RUM4MO]

Very good, thanks for including that PDF, same for 1.2TSI so all very relevant to me, if I get round to replacing these bolts which I bought a year or more ago, just in case.

Initially the fuel rail tightening torque as 8Nm then some one heard that it was up to 9Nm but no one has mentioned the additional "+90degrees" - yet, and that makes a lot of difference to the actual final torque!

Good to see that "replace don't reuse" is being applied to the O-ring seals on the charge pipe, something people should consider if taking that pipe off when replacing the spark plugs, I replaced them on my wife's 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI when I replaced its spark plugs.

Some recalls in USA and Canada being ignored is one thing, but this one gets referred to as being a "safety" recall - so I would expect VW Group in Europe to also consider it a "safety" issue and as such they should be informing each sales area government bodies so that they can manage the formal recall - so what is holding them up?

Edit:- you are correct that PDF is for the same engine family so I hope that you don't get any silly excuses like "that engine is only used in the USA and Canada sales area - so none of that is relevant".

I was once informed at my local VW dealership, when I complained about something on my personal imported new VW Passat 4Motion "your car has been built from German parts so we can't do anything as we can only work on cars built from British parts" - I could only walk away muttering very rude words under my breathe! Buying VCDS or at that time it was VAG-COM sorted out my complaints, even although that car was personally imported by me, it was "reg'd" with VW UK and so I was entitled to 12 months new car warranty as that is pan European.

 

[stepp]

For anyone interested this is the reply I got from SEAT regarding the problem :



Thank you for your recent email regarding the issues you have experienced with a major fuel leak in your SEAT Leon.

I was concerned to learn of the issues you have experienced with your vehicle and would like to apologise for the inconvenience this has caused. I do appreciate that your expectations of reliability and build quality are high when you purchase a SEAT, therefore, any failure is most disappointing.

All genuine SEAT Parts are designed for our vehicles and tailored to fit. We do place the greatest emphasis on their reliability, particularly in those aspects which affect safety. The parts satisfy the strictest statutory requirements with regard to design, function and service life.

Whilst SEAT takes pride in producing vehicles which are strong and long lasting, like any other vehicle manufacturer, it is not possible to guarantee that the many components which go into the complex build will never fail. It is for this reason that all new SEATs are supplied with a comprehensive three year/60,000 miles manufacturers warranty and on expiry, owners are provided with the opportunity to extend this.

Following such circumstances, I do understand that you may wish to carry out personal research on the problem presented. However, whilst such internet sites are often a useful source of information, they do not provide a complete picture. Consequently, we monitor any failure rates on all components within our vehicles very closely and pride ourselves on acting swiftly should any issues become apparent. This is achieved by working very closely with our SEAT Retailer Network and our Technical Experts within the UK and at the Factory.

A TPI (Technical Product Information) is a Factory document that forms part of the electronic workshop manual and is vehicle specific. TPIs are generated by the Factory as a result of the reports raised by the SEAT Retailer Network. A TPI gives repair advice or argumentation to a SEAT Retailer service reception or workshop, who qualify its use by dealing directly with yourself and vehicle during the service process. They are designed to help the SEAT Retailer Network understand issues and help with customer concerns about topics that the manufacturer is investigating.

SEAT UK’s position surrounding complaints with the above, is that we are unaware of any manufacturing defect. Having checked our records, I can also confirm that there are no outstanding safety recalls or service campaigns on the above vehicle.

 

[RUM4MO]

Well, without being cynical, I'd think BS covers all that standard line which should only apply to certain types of failures, what you and some others have experienced are something completely different, these bolts that are failing are not in themselves a badly manufactured item, they will all be fit for use - but not fit for accidental misuse due to a VW Group engine plant procedures or setting up assembly line kit - and it has been said that Skoda knew this, it has been reported though probably only officially internally, that they did uncover a problem and resolved it, VW Group must know the serial number "bands" that are excluded from this and so the ones included in this issue, but so far VW Group marques importers in many countries have chosen to either delay any official safety recall, or are playing it by ear to see if it is worth the "goodwill" to their markets to do anything about this. As I think that I said already, it seems that the vast majority of affected owners just aimed to get this sorted out ASAP to minimise their inconvenience, so all VW Group marques in UK will be witnessing is a maybe surprising demand for these bolts, injector retainers and sealing washers - but a sale is a sale, just extra income for the VW Group's marques workshop parts department and also TPS. Very very few dealerships will be raising documentation back to their marque importers in enough volume to prompt any official action.
There will be other car brands that are also getting away with similar issues, not just VW Group, but currently it is only VW Group's behaviour that we are concerned about.

 

[Seat ibiza fr 2017]

Hi


My 2017 didn't start today and is leaking fuel from the engine.

The AA has got it to a closed garage and said it sounds like the fuel rail.

I had it serviced at Seat a month ago who did a major service.

Has anyone heard of anything like this happening, the car has only done 25000 miles it's the 1.4 150 version.

Thanks

Has anyone had fuel rail bolts failure causing fuel to spray into the engine bay. I'm currently in this position not knowing what to do? The dvsa are involved my car is in at an independent vag specialist and it should be a recall as it is in state side on the same family of engines (1.2tsi). In the states if this has happened apparently they are replacing all injectors and fuel rail and the bill will come to £1200 seat should paying for this has anyone else had this problem?

 

[RUM4MO]

From what I can gather, this is a known issue, Skoda manufacturers this family of petrol engines, and they did or a claim has been made that they did discover an error in some tooling on the assembly line, and resolved this. Time line and so possible ranges of engine serial numbers must be known to Skoda and that must have been passed on to all other marques using this family of engines.
Quite a few Skoda Fabia owners have ended up with this problem, but most of them end up, out of convenience and practicalities being towed to the nearest garage for repair, so VW Group UK just wash their hands of any of this, and this seems too be "it just is not happening" or "it is only acceptable wear and tear" - and that is nonsense!

DVSA need to start trying to find out what is really happening, what their use in society is, and then start getting these clowns like all the VW Group UK importers to start playing the game fairly!!

And there is more, my wife's August 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI 110PS, deposited the head of one of the four bolts that secure the front carrier assembly (subframe) to the car! These bolts are stretched when tightened, 70Nm then an additional 90 degrees, this car has been owned by my wife from new, no VW dealership or I have ever touched these bolts to cause them to get over torqued, in reality, what has happened, from what I can see is, water has been getting into the area where that bolt head is, and has corroded it to the extent that the bolt has gone from an M12 bolt shank down to roughly a shank that an M8 would have - and so has ended up being overloaded for that size of bolt - and failed due to corrosion - on a car that is only 6.5 year sold and 38K miles - not good! I will be requesting that my local VAG Indie returns all the bolts to me and I will contact VW UK about this, but I don't expect getting any joy from them as my calls/letters will just be going to an outsourced services company who are probably only rewarded by the level of deflection that they give to customers away from VW Group UK, I would like to think that VW does get to hear about this as this could end up like your spraying high pressure petrol, a safety issue.

Edit:- maybe you think that I'm a bit annoyed about this, I am, as are you!! Maybe have a look in the Skoda motoring forum, www.briskoda.net in the Fabia MK3 section, you will find a thread in there concerning this!

Here it is:- https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/468348-fuel-leak/

 

[Seat ibiza fr 2017]

From what I can gather, this is a known issue, Skoda manufacturers this family of petrol engines, and they did or a claim has been made that they did discover an error in some tooling on the assembly line, and resolved this. Time line and so possible ranges of engine serial numbers must be known to Skoda and that must have been passed on to all other marques using this family of engines.
Quite a few Skoda Fabia owners have ended up with this problem, but most of them end up, out of convenience and practicalities being towed to the nearest garage for repair, so VW Group UK just wash their hands of any of this, and this seems too be "it just is not happening" or "it is only acceptable wear and tear" - and that is nonsense!

DVSA need to start trying to find out what is really happening, what their use in society is, and then start getting these clowns like all the VW Group UK importers to start playing the game fairly!!

And there is more, my wife's August 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI 110PS, deposited the head of one of the four bolts that secure the front carrier assembly (subframe) to the car! These bolts are stretched when tightened, 70Nm then an additional 90 degrees, this car has been owned by my wife from new, no VW dealership or I have ever touched these bolts to cause them to get over torqued, in reality, what has happened, from what I can see is, water has been getting into the area where that bolt head is, and has corroded it to the extent that the bolt has gone from an M12 bolt shank down to roughly a shank that an M8 would have - and so has ended up being overloaded for that size of bolt - and failed due to corrosion - on a car that is only 6.5 year sold and 38K miles - not good! I will be requesting that my local VAG Indie returns all the bolts to me and I will contact VW UK about this, but I don't expect getting any joy from them as my calls/letters will just be going to an outsourced services company who are probably only rewarded by the level of deflection that they give to customers away from VW Group UK, I would like to think that VW does get to hear about this as this could end up like your spraying high pressure petrol, a safety issue.

Edit:- maybe you think that I'm a bit annoyed about this, I am, as are you!! Maybe have a look in the Skoda motoring forum, www.briskoda.net in the Fabia MK3 section, you will find a thread in there concerning this!

Here it is:- https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/468348-fuel-leak/

Just want my car back on the road should I just replace the bolts because seat might not even pay for the fix. What was your experience when the dealer when this happened to you?