1.8t persistent p1137 bank 1 additive too rich, lots of steps already taken now stuck

[sonic_vi]

HI Guys

OK so this is for my AUQ 1M Toldeo 1.8t 20vt sport but as there are next to none of these left on the road i figured that targeting the leon sub forum would yield more results (and i used to have a leon so.....)

Anyway I have a persistent P1137 System too rich add - seems to appear when codes are cleared when sat at lights which would confirm my thoughts that it is correct on saying that the fault is occuring at idle. I mean I can do a 300 mile trip and the EML stays off and then soon as I pull off the motorway and idle for 30-60 secs it would come on.

Car is standard apart from a silicone Y piece on the pcv system, forge 007p (have tried swapping back to the standard dv, no change) and maxflow induction kit and 2 vac lines that have been replaced with silicone as well (see below)

So steps so far -

Replaced pre cat o2 sensor gen bosch, MAF gen bosch, plugs (platinum ngk), cleaned Maxflow induction kit, changed vac lines to DV and FPR. could do with some help in diagnosis and fault finding - my next thing to try i guess will be a fresh FPR as I can't think of anything else. Have tried spraying wd40 around the vac lines and i get no engine note change, i get no other fault codes, I have even driven it for a month (1800+ miles) with the EML on to see if anything else got thrown up but its just coming back with the one fault code. Car drives fine, boosts like a mofo not down on power (out strips my mates MK1 octy VRS in a straight line anyway) fuel economy is excellent ,will hit between 45-50mpg according to the trip on the flat at 60-65 on the motorway and is averaging around 34-35 mixed driving confirmed by fill to fill on iphone app - i do about 4-5 tanks a month with work minimum

Aside from changing out the FPR what else can I do?

i have vag com but could do with knowing which things to log and how to do it if anyone can point me in the right direction. I have done a lot of reading but am coming up blank

Thanks

Russ

 

[8bit]

Have you seen this? - http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17545/P1137/004407

That does suggest the FPR could be a fault but with these cars the usual causes of rich running are boost/vacuum leaks. If it were me I'd take it to a garage that can do a full boost leak/smoke test and have them check the whole system.

If no joy there then changing the FPR isn't a big deal. Find the fuse that runs the fuel pump, pull it out and start the engine. It'll die after a couple of seconds cos there's no fuel getting to it. Undo the vac line to the FPR, remove the retaining clip holding the FPR into the rail and wiggle the FPR upwards til it comes out. Wiggle the new one down into place far enough that the retaining clip goes back in. Reattach the vac line and replace the fuse, then turn the electrics on and wait for a second, the fuel pump will repressurise the system. Then start the car again.

 

[sonic_vi]

Have you seen this? - http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17545/P1137/004407

That does suggest the FPR could be a fault but with these cars the usual causes of rich running are boost/vacuum leaks. If it were me I'd take it to a garage that can do a full boost leak/smoke test and have them check the whole system.

If no joy there then changing the FPR isn't a big deal. Find the fuse that runs the fuel pump, pull it out and start the engine. It'll die after a couple of seconds cos there's no fuel getting to it. Undo the vac line to the FPR, remove the retaining clip holding the FPR into the rail and wiggle the FPR upwards til it comes out. Wiggle the new one down into place far enough that the retaining clip goes back in. Reattach the vac line and replace the fuse, then turn the electrics on and wait for a second, the fuel pump will repressurise the system. Then start the car again.

OK so eventually got around to changing the FPR (from a working car, someone I know has an octy VRS which is lucky) and no difference.

I am wondering if my MAF is maybe giving a high reading at idle which is throwing out the air/fuel ratio maybe - if its reading high, it will chuck in more fuel and then the O2 sensor after the turbo exhaust will pick up the mixture as too rich - am I right in thinking that?

I am gonna try the MAF off the skoda and then after that I guess its gonna be up to awesome gti for a smoke test unless anyone has any other ideas.

Really annoying as I love the car and she is running beautifully aside from this. Stuck at 70 on a trip from wigan to nottingham this morning and average 44.4mpg according to the trip which is usually optimistic by a couple of mpg but even 40+ from a 1.8t without really trying I was well impressed with.

Is it worth logging anything in VAG-COM and posting it here to see if anyone can point me in the direction of any figures that don't look quite right?

 

[8bit]

Could be the MAF, unlikely I'd have thought since you already changed it, although having said that I had a brand new, official MAF go bad on me less than 6 months old last year so wouldn't rule it out.

Yes, log it on VAGCOM, I'd say do that before changing anything else. Log blocks 001, 031 and 115 to start with, do a 3rd or (ideally) 4th gear run, from about 2000rpm foot flat on the floor to about 6000rpm. Note you'll need a "private road" in 4th as you'll be into three-figure speeds in that gear. Post the log back here and I'll take a look.

 

[sonic_vi]

No prob

I'll get that done and come back. Much appreciated.

Its such a stupid annoying thing.

One thing i have noticed is that if i pin it in first and go for a fast shift to second and stamp on the loud pedal it bogs down and doesnt do anything. If i lift and boot it again it boosts almost like I have "caught it unawares"

When it does boost its quick enough

I was gonna look to do an n249 bypass incase its that. Airfilter was cleaned, new plugs and oil 4k ago

 

[8bit]

That boost thing sounds like your Forge valve sticking open, mine was doing the same a while ago. When was the last time you checked or serviced it?

Take it off the car, push the piston upwards from the bottom port with a pen, hold your finger over the vac pipe on top and remove the pen. Look in the side port, the piston should stay open. Let go of the vac pipe, it should snap shut. Do this a number of times, should do this every single time.

 

[sonic_vi]

I'll check it cheers

 

[sonic_vi]

OK not checked the DV yet not had chance but booted the laptop up on the way home today

only realised when I got in that i hadn't cleared the codes before logging - I guess you'll need it without the CEL on but here they are anyway

Sunday 17 March 2013 16:46:35
06A 906 032 MJ 1.8L R4/5VT 0003

Group A: '001 Group B: '001 Group C: '115
Idle speed Coolant Temp Oxygen Sensor Adj for Basic Idle speed Coolant Temp Oxygen Sensor Adj for Basic Engine Speed Engine Load Spec. Boost Actual Boost
TIME 700-820 rpm 80-110 C -0.2 1x111111 TIME 700-820 rpm 80-110 C -0.2 1x111111 TIME 700-6800 RPM 15-150% 990-1800 mbar <=1800 mbar
MARKER STAMP /min °C % STAMP /min °C % STAMP /min % mbar mbar
0.6 1920 91 -3.1 1101011 1.2 2040 91 -15.6 1101001 0 1840 83.5 1670 1010
2.37 2240 91 -14.8 1101001 3 2360 91 -15.6 1101001 1.8 2120 147.4 1730 1460
4.11 2640 91 -14.8 1101001 4.62 2720 91 -14.8 1101001 3.61 2520 170.7 1710 1760
5.72 2960 91 -14.1 1101001 6.25 3080 91 -14.1 1101001 5.13 2840 165.4 1690 1710
7.34 3280 91 -13.3 1101001 7.94 3400 91 -13.3 1101001 6.83 3200 164.7 1660 1680
9.14 3640 92 -12.5 1101001 9.76 3760 91 -13.3 1101001 8.62 3520 158.6 1610 1620
10.97 4000 92 -13.3 1101001 11.58 4120 92 -13.3 1101001 10.36 3880 156.4 1640 1640
12.76 4320 92 -12.5 1101001 13.37 4440 92 -12.5 1101001 12.17 4200 154.1 1650 1650
14.69 4680 92 -11.7 1101001 15.31 4760 92 -6.3 1101001 14.07 4560 154.1 1650 1640
16.48 4960 92 0 1100001 16.99 5040 92 0 1100001 15.89 4840 154.9 1650 1620
18.1 5240 92 0 1100001 18.71 5320 92 0 1100001 17.49 5120 155.6 1670 1650
19.99 5520 92 0 1100001 20.53 5600 92 0 1100001 19.32 5440 156.4 1700 1650
21.73 5800 93 0 1100001 22.33 5880 92 0 1100001 21.13 5720 157.1 1660 1650
Sunday 17 March 2013 16:50:30
06A 906 032 MJ 1.8L R4/5VT 0003

Group A: '001 Group B: '001 Group C: '115
Idle speed Coolant Temp Oxygen Sensor Adj for Basic Idle speed Coolant Temp Oxygen Sensor Adj for Basic Engine Speed Engine Load Spec. Boost Actual Boost
TIME 700-820 rpm 80-110 C -0.2 1x111111 TIME 700-820 rpm 80-110 C -0.2 1x111111 TIME 700-6800 RPM 15-150% 990-1800 mbar <=1800 mbar
MARKER STAMP /min °C % STAMP /min °C % STAMP /min % mbar mbar
0.52 2560 91 0 1100001 1.12 2680 90 0 1100001 0 2480 19.5 1000 990
2.32 3000 90 0 1100001 2.94 3120 90 0 1100001 1.73 2840 169.2 1700 1730
4.14 3440 90 -15.6 1101001 4.73 3560 90 -14.8 1101001 3.54 3280 166.9 1640 1640
5.96 3840 90 -14.1 1101001 6.55 4000 90 -14.8 1101001 5.42 3720 157.9 1620 1600
7.56 4240 90 -14.1 1101001 8.16 4360 90 -14.1 1101001 7.05 4120 157.9 1650 1650
9.38 4640 90 -13.3 1101001 9.99 4760 90 -13.3 1101001 8.77 4480 156.4 1640 1650
11.26 5000 91 -0.8 1100001 11.78 5120 91 -0.8 1100001 10.59 4880 157.9 1640 1640
12.99 5320 91 -0.8 1100001 13.6 5400 91 -0.8 1100001 12.39 5200 157.1 1650 1650
14.7 5560 91 -0.8 1100001 15.21 5640 91 -0.8 1100001 14.2 5480 157.1 1660 1650
16.49 5800 92 -0.8 1100001 17.1 5880 92 -0.8 1100001 15.82 5720 156.4 1640 1630
18.22 6040 92 -0.8 1100001 18.82 6120 92 -0.8 1100001 17.62 5960 151.1 1590 1620


Did 2 runs one straight after the other on a private runway

Also now have 2 faults, the second one has never appeared before but according to the Ross Tech site the EVAP system could be a reason for running too rich

2 Faults Found:
17544 - Fuel Trim: Bank 1 (Add): System too Rich
P1136 - 35-00 - -
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys: Incorrect Flow
P0441 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

Cheers

Russ

 

[8bit]

Struggling to read those logs. Did you get them in .csv file format? If so then open them in Excel, set it to comma-separated and it should look OK in there. Then copy and paste the data from Excel into a new post here and put CODE and /CODE tags around each set of data (use advanced mode for posting, there's a button on there for doing CODE tags).

Also you've got block 001 in there twice, might not be a problem if the problem is in these logs but 001, 031 and 115 would give a better picture.

 

[8bit]

Actually, having said that I can see on block 001 that you've got a lot of negative lambda correction, down to about -15 at points. This suggests that the ECU is removing a lot of fuelling which makes sense with the "system too rich" fault code, the only question is why is it doing this. Looks like your car is meeting the requested boost so doesn't look like a boost leak.

Do another log when you get a chance, this time do blocks 002 and 031. That will show MAF values and lambda readings from the exhaust, might give a better idea.

 

[sonic_vi]

Sunday	17	March	2013	16:46:35											
06A 906 032 MJ 		1.8L R4/5VT         0003													
															
	Group A:	'001				Group B:	'001				Group C:	'115			
		Idle speed	Coolant Temp	Oxygen Sensor	Adj for Basic		Idle speed	Coolant Temp	Oxygen Sensor	Adj for Basic		Engine Speed	Engine Load	Spec. Boost	Actual Boost
	TIME	700-820 rpm	80-110 C	-0.2	1x111111	TIME	700-820 rpm	80-110 C	-0.2	1x111111	TIME	700-6800 RPM	15-150%	990-1800 mbar	<=1800 mbar
MARKER	STAMP	 /min	°C	%		STAMP	 /min	°C	%		STAMP	 /min	%	 mbar	 mbar
	0.6	1920	91	-3.1	1101011	1.2	2040	91	-15.6	1101001	0	1840	83.5	1670	1010
	2.37	2240	91	-14.8	1101001	3	2360	91	-15.6	1101001	1.8	2120	147.4	1730	1460
	4.11	2640	91	-14.8	1101001	4.62	2720	91	-14.8	1101001	3.61	2520	170.7	1710	1760
	5.72	2960	91	-14.1	1101001	6.25	3080	91	-14.1	1101001	5.13	2840	165.4	1690	1710
	7.34	3280	91	-13.3	1101001	7.94	3400	91	-13.3	1101001	6.83	3200	164.7	1660	1680
	9.14	3640	92	-12.5	1101001	9.76	3760	91	-13.3	1101001	8.62	3520	158.6	1610	1620
	10.97	4000	92	-13.3	1101001	11.58	4120	92	-13.3	1101001	10.36	3880	156.4	1640	1640
	12.76	4320	92	-12.5	1101001	13.37	4440	92	-12.5	1101001	12.17	4200	154.1	1650	1650
	14.69	4680	92	-11.7	1101001	15.31	4760	92	-6.3	1101001	14.07	4560	154.1	1650	1640
	16.48	4960	92	0	1100001	16.99	5040	92	0	1100001	15.89	4840	154.9	1650	1620
	18.1	5240	92	0	1100001	18.71	5320	92	0	1100001	17.49	5120	155.6	1670	1650
	19.99	5520	92	0	1100001	20.53	5600	92	0	1100001	19.32	5440	156.4	1700	1650
	21.73	5800	93	0	1100001	22.33	5880	92	0	1100001	21.13	5720	157.1	1660	1650
Sunday	17	March	2013	16:50:30											
06A 906 032 MJ 		1.8L R4/5VT         0003													
															
	Group A:	'001				Group B:	'001				Group C:	'115			
		Idle speed	Coolant Temp	Oxygen Sensor	Adj for Basic		Idle speed	Coolant Temp	Oxygen Sensor	Adj for Basic		Engine Speed	Engine Load	Spec. Boost	Actual Boost
	TIME	700-820 rpm	80-110 C	-0.2	1x111111	TIME	700-820 rpm	80-110 C	-0.2	1x111111	TIME	700-6800 RPM	15-150%	990-1800 mbar	<=1800 mbar
MARKER	STAMP	 /min	°C	%		STAMP	 /min	°C	%		STAMP	 /min	%	 mbar	 mbar
	0.52	2560	91	0	1100001	1.12	2680	90	0	1100001	0	2480	19.5	1000	990
	2.32	3000	90	0	1100001	2.94	3120	90	0	1100001	1.73	2840	169.2	1700	1730
	4.14	3440	90	-15.6	1101001	4.73	3560	90	-14.8	1101001	3.54	3280	166.9	1640	1640
	5.96	3840	90	-14.1	1101001	6.55	4000	90	-14.8	1101001	5.42	3720	157.9	1620	1600
	7.56	4240	90	-14.1	1101001	8.16	4360	90	-14.1	1101001	7.05	4120	157.9	1650	1650
	9.38	4640	90	-13.3	1101001	9.99	4760	90	-13.3	1101001	8.77	4480	156.4	1640	1650
	11.26	5000	91	-0.8	1100001	11.78	5120	91	-0.8	1100001	10.59	4880	157.9	1640	1640
	12.99	5320	91	-0.8	1100001	13.6	5400	91	-0.8	1100001	12.39	5200	157.1	1650	1650
	14.7	5560	91	-0.8	1100001	15.21	5640	91	-0.8	1100001	14.2	5480	157.1	1660	1650
	16.49	5800	92	-0.8	1100001	17.1	5880	92	-0.8	1100001	15.82	5720	156.4	1640	1630
	18.22	6040	92	-0.8	1100001	18.82	6120	92	-0.8	1100001	17.62	5960	151.1	1590	1620

 

[sonic_vi]

ah see what you mean

such a dumbass - mustnt have checked the second lot of data was actually grabbing the right field doh !

so this time grab 001, 002 & 031

I cleared the codes just after doing the logs so might provide a better picture as its not running in "safe" mode

 

[8bit]

You can leave out 001 this time, we've seen that it's pulling fuel out already, just need to work out why now. Not sure that that will cause "safe" mode (usually called limp mode), it will adjust up to +/- 10% OK, it'll raise a fault code like you've seen if it goes between +/- 10% to 25% and beyond that it just gives up.

But yes, what to do next time is clear fault codes then log blocks 002 and 031.

 

[sonic_vi]

Sorry not limp mode, just meant running standard map like if the maf goes bad.

I'll get some logs done and see what happens.

Do you think the evap fault has any bearing?

 

[8bit]

Ah ok, I see. Wasn't aware that would happen with a too-rich code either, maybe your car is different from mine in that respect. Between +/- 10% and +/- 25% the car should still run, just complain bitterly about it.

The FPR you used, is it definitely a 3-bar one? Was it 3-bar before?

 

[sonic_vi]

Ah ok, I see. Wasn't aware that would happen with a too-rich code either, maybe your car is different from mine in that respect. Between +/- 10% and +/- 25% the car should still run, just complain bitterly about it.

The FPR you used, is it definitely a 3-bar one? Was it 3-bar before?

It was from a working standard(ish) octy vrs which was fine no faults - i'll swap it back just in case

My engine is AUQ for certain so same motor.

I didnt know if it does use standard map but it is definately faster and boosts harder with the codes cleared.

Thanks for all the help by the way

 

[8bit]

No worries, hopefully we get to the bottom of this

 

[ibizacupra]

clogged FPR?

quick check to remove and see

Adaptions could also be an over reading MAF which presets the fueling for which the lambda then has to adjust back out again to achieve the target fuel request

A smoke leak test may reveal other vac leaks which are otherwise quite difficult to find also

 

[sonic_vi]

Both fpr's were clean as a whistle.

I was thinking high reading MAF - its a replacement one from eurocarparts but not the cheap one. May have to go back if its not that.

Could be a vac leak but that would be a lean condition not a rich i guess due to extra unmetered air being sucked in?

Boost leak unlikely as its making requested boost and drives perfect with good fuel economy

Russ

 

[ibizacupra]

disconnect maf, and if adaptions drop it will confirm the maf's misreporting airflows

The fact it achieves boost proves Nothing I'm afraid.
Smoke Leak Test reveals leaks 99% of the time. Owners also say the same as you and are shocked when they see smoke pour out of leaks... "but it drives fine" they say.