Front Tyre wear - bushes?

[Lucero]

Pretty sure I know the answer, but need to check with you guys before I go wading in.

Basically, new tyres fitted in January, inside edge on both is severely worn down (rest of the tread pattern still has a long way to go). One almost showing chord on the inside edge.

I had a Hunter alignment performed at the same time and there was minimal adjustment required. To be honest, car was significantly better after new tyres and the small adjustments. It pulled less to the left than before and there was less vibration.

However, I know the tyre wear is not normal so now I am thinking bushes. Car is on 150k (original bushes) so I have little doubt that something there needs attending to.

I also saw a thread on here about a D clamp bush on the ARB?? (I think) which seemed to make a big impact.

Just looking for thoughts really, ie, yes, do it, yes do it, but consider uprated (not powerflex but maybe Cupra or FR bushes)

TIA

 

[RUM4MO]

You only need to get the car up in the air and check the TCA rear bushes for tearing, that will tell you all you need to know about them.

I’m a bit confused as to why the mounting bushes for the ARB would cause excessive inner edge tyres wear.

You must have been given a before and after results printout when the geometry was checked, what does it “say”?

Worn inner steering rod joints can cause the toeing to change while the car is driven, and that can cause the inner edges to wear as the toe out will increase under power.

 

[Lucero]

So prior to two new front tyres and alignment, the car tracked heavily to the left (almost lurched). The alignment came back almost spot on with little in the way of adjustment required, although some was done. The car was a lot better, partly due to the new tyres and also didn't pull as much to the left. It tracked left, but more with camber than lurching. Anyway, 6 months on, the fronts are now completely worn on the inside edges (chord showing on one), with the rest of the tread probably at 4-5mm. So whilst I need to replace them, I don't want to be here again in 6 months time when the alignment machines say everything is good, because actually something else is causing the issue.

The ARB bushes was the overall feel of the steering and bumps / noises from the car. I don't think it related too much to steering or tyre wear

 

[RUM4MO]

The question might be, where did you get a full geometry check carried out?
As I said earlier, all these places that carry out full geometry checks provide you with a before and after results printout, so what errors did that printout show in terms of camber and castor?
I have also had a full realignment carried out on a 2002 9N Polo after it got a new ARB fitted and it did that to a set of tyres in roughly the same time, which was very very annoying - as it was a VW dealer that carried out the realignment, at that period in time, no printout was provided.
KwikFit do carry out full geometry checks but seem only still to be willing to adjust the toeing, which might make sense as these cars do not have any deliberate built in means of adjusting camber and castor - the subframe needs moving around to alter things.

 

[Lucero]

On a hunter alignment machine at a independent tyre / suspension specialist. I do have the printout (not to hand though) so will check it later and post up the info.

Interestingly, I have worked out that I have covered 18k miles in the time since having the tyres, so shouldn't complain really, but with the type of driving I do (mainly all motorway) the rest of the tyre is healthy with good tread, which is annoying as I suspect another 5k or so at least left.

Local VW Indy, who I spoke to earlier, said the bushes would need to be on their last knees before making any terrific difference to tyre wear but was more than happy to check them through at the next service. He also noted that the last time the car was in for an MOT it had an advisory for leaking (whisps of oil) front shock and track rod end play.

 

[Crossthreaded]

Hmmm? I find this interesting because in my youth I was deeply involved in racing tyres working for a leading manufacturer (European Touring cars) So I've "messed about" with tyres/steering/suspension quite a lot! The first thing that occurs to me is that you say alignment was checked and corrected. Before doing this the technician must do a comprehensive examination and assessment of any wear to suspension and steering components. It is quite pointless and a waste of money to try to do any sort of alignment procedure on a vehicle where any of these components is not absolutely AOK. So, hopefully this was all done, nothing found and adjustment made. For those who don't know here's a video of what a "Hunter" alignment is all about:

I find it very strange when you go on to say that although "better" it still pulled to the left and "vibrated" less? It shouldn't have done any of this. The "D" bushes on the antiroll bar can make annoying rattle/clonk noises but that's about all so won't affect tyre wear - a broken drop link would be another matter! Now you say you suspect the rear bottom arm bushes - why?

You state the inside of the treads are badly worn with one showing exposed chords - so quite illegal by the way - but the rest of the tread has around 4 to 5 mil remaining. It would help to establish if this is due to excessive negative camber (that is the top of the wheel leaning in too far so putting more load on the inside shoulder of the tyre) or to excessive toe out (that is both front wheels splayed out. ie left wheel trying to go left a wee - or maybe big - bit left and right wheel trying to go right) It should be possible to see this reflected in the wear pattern of the treads. If it's due to too much toe out the tyres are, in effect, being dragged slightly sideways over the road surface as they try to go their own ways but are constrained by the rest of the suspension this produces "lipping" - some call it "Feathering" - of the tread blocks (inner edges of each block will be rounded with outer edges Lipped). I look for this on my own cars regularly and every time I service them as it can give an early indication of a problem brewing. Easy to check, just turn the wheel full lock and look at the tread.

https://www.google.com/search?q=feathered+tyre+wear+images&safe=strict&rlz=1C1CHBF_enGB761GB761&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=-_1uwnb_vNxeHM%3A%2CjqSxY8j1rnlYSM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTdlLqrnI8Z4sDx0ITT1IK99_eyHg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjz8cjdw8DiAhUiUBUIHd6xBkQQ9QEwA3oECAkQBA#imgrc=-_1uwnb_vNxeHM:

I hope this link works! It's very exaggerated but gives you the idea. In practice the "feathering" is usually less pronounced but easily seen once you know what you're looking for. If the toe is correct but camber is excessively negative the tyres will wear on the inside but there will be no evidence of lipping/feathering.

The fact that you had excessive pulling to the nearside before the procedure and you still have it now, coupled to this extreme tyre wear is worrying. The MOT advisory for track rod end, if it hasn't been replaced, could be very relevant - especially if the treads are lipped.

Incompetent or lazy operatives are always a problem where wheel alignment is concerned but a four wheel aligning tool like the Hunter is a very expensive investment so it seems likely that staff using it will have received adequate training in it's use and the checks necessary before starting the procedure. So I find your outcome puzzling. Easy for me to say now in retrospect, but I would have been right back knocking on their door when the problem was not satisfactorily resolved by the procedure.

I'll give this some more thought but, If after checking that t/rod end and the bushes - and thinking "outside the box" slightly, perhaps a crash repair specialist might spot something that others are missing. I do hope not, but it could be you've got more than just a simple tracking problem here?

 

[Lucero]

Thank you for the comprehensive post. I've done some tests today, and these are the facts (and a bit of history) as I have them.

I took over driving this car as my daily hack from my other half at 112k. It hadn't been massively well maintained by her (reactive) and it was a hire car prior to her ownership, so probably rung around the block a few times.

In any case, when I started driving it, the car at a tendency to pull (hard, more than camber) to the left. It also had a steering wheel vibration at 70+, enough to actually only make you want to do 70 or below, so perhaps not a bad thing. I suspect, in hindsight, that this could have simply been a wheel weight. It was also incredibly loud in the car with road noise.

Anyway, in January (132k), as posted earlier, 4 tyres were replaced and the alignment was carried out, prior to MOT and service (Alignment before tyres, I might add, although done at the same time, the alignment was performed first as that is what the tyre/suspension garage recommended).

Car was an absolute dream after this. The pull to the left was much more road camber orientated (you didn't need to hold the wheel to the right as much and it wasn't trying to pull you left, it would just track left). The vibration was gone and it was a lot quieter (better rubber). Again, I stress, minimal correction was performed during the alignment.

FFWD 18k miles and the passenger side shows heavy wear to the inside edge, the drivers side shows chord. The rest of the tyre tread, as reported is probably good for another 5k or so.

Today, I dropped the drivers side off, and put on a full size spare with the same tyre size, new rubber, so I could take the car down to have both fronts replaced. Interestingly, the car is pulling significantly to the left again. As in, wheel almost yanked left. Why does excess tyre wear feel like that?

I cant help think something is not right. Of course, it feels fine again now, but I don't want to be back here in 6 months replacing front tyres again because actually a simple drop link or bush could have been replaced.

You mention competent operators. Well yes, but honestly who are we kidding. Bushes are a visual check (often at best) as you can't simulate that kind of play without the weight of the car.

To answer some of your other points:
There is no feathering on the rest of the treads
I don't suspect the rear bottom bushes, I'm looking for ideas to suggest it could be those, and the console bushes do seem to come up in conversation a lot on this platform WRT tyre wear.

I could simply ask that the hunter tech dials in more camber (or toe) over spec to avoid a repeat (I know them well enough that they'd do this).

Other things it could be?
Poorly rear axle (which is the reference point the hunter uses)
Warped, lose or shifted subframe
Bushes

 

[Crossthreaded]

Easy answer first. When you removed the worn right front tyre and fitted the full size new rubber spare it pulls to the left because with the wear on the left tyre the effective centre line of that tyre (with regard to pressure being applied to the road) is no longer where it was. ie. centre line of the tyre - it's now further out. Whereas the right side new tyre's centre is true to the centre line of the tyre. You would get a similar effect if you were to put 2 new tyres on but fitted a spacer to the left wheel hub - make sense? not sure if I described that too well? To look at it another way the true centre line of contact for the left tyre, due to the worn inside shoulder, is going to be further outboard than the right one with it's new tyre.

Now for the more difficult "stuff" - No sign of feathering? so probably not a tracking problem in the accepted sense (ie reading an incorrect toe when statically checked). This is where it gets much more difficult when you can't get your hands on the vehicle. Components like track rod ends, ball joints on bottom arms, track arm ball joints and the rack itself tend to develop easily found movement. By that I mean they develop clearance so when you get hold of them and get "violent" You find yourself thinking "oh yes, that's well done in" - or words to that effect as you both see and feel it flopping and clunking about. Bushings, due to their vary compliant nature - made even worse these days by voided bushes - are much more difficult to be sure about. My guess, sitting on my sofa up here in "Auld Reekie", is that it's going to be bushings at fault. They can look deceptively ok at rest and when tested manually but, under braking especially, they can allow the front wheels to splay and take too much toe out under braking. My younger boy's MK5 escort was very bad for this and wore it's front tyres just like you're describing. I suspected this to be the problem so got him to drive towards me at 20 mph whilst I watched the front wheels. From the side it was immediately apparent that the wheel was moving back in the wheel arch by a surprising amount (you'll always see a little of this due to the compliance of modern suspension bushes, but this one left me in no doubt). I took the risk of having him repeat this - I don't advise you to do the same - with me standing in front of the car and you could actually see the front wheels toe out as he hammered the brake pedal. The bushes (bottom arm) looked a bit the worse for wear on the car but not that bad. Different story once the arms were off and I could stick a screwdriver through where the mounting bolt would normally go and give it a good wiggle about. Totally goosed! the steel centre bush dropped out of one on the N/S and both were more like marshmallow in consistency! These cars were very well known for this problem so, as a good friend owned our local factor, towards the end of it's life I just about put new arms on every year for it's MOT. Luckily cost wasn't that much, probably just about cancelled out by tyre longevity - well maybe not? - but we didn't have wear problems any more and the car was so much more pleasant to drive, it was worth it.

So, I think I'm in your camp. If we exclude the possibility of body shell/chassis distortion Knackered bushes have to be the prime suspect?

Please do keep us informed as to your outcome. I can't wait to see what it is!
Kind regards.

 

[Lucero]

Thanks, again.

It's now just a case of working through them, and weighing up which ones are cost effective to replace just the bush, or replace say the whole lower wishbone (as that might be cheaper). There seem to be some conversations that these OEM bushes can start to play from as little as 5k miles too!!

I'm inclined to have a look at the console/TCA bushes first (and the track rod).

What you say about the tyres moving back is very interesting. Even when the tyres were new, but scrubbed in a few hundred miles, there is a junction near me that would cause the passenger tyre to slip (and spin, no TC on my model) even on the driest/warmest of days, essentially like someone was moving the wheel back or lifting it's contact patch with the road. I suppose turned left some degrees, then powered up (under acceleration) the wheel on a poor bush would move back in the arch and effectively break traction, which is kind of what was happening.

It will be a few weeks until the car is in for it's next service so I am going to discuss some bush replacement then in more detail and hopefully come back with an answer. Of course, the car, to me, should feel immediately nicer to drive, but it will be the longevity of the tyres that shows a true result.

 

[Crossthreaded]

Those "console" bushes certainly seem to be very well known for being a weak link. We did the ones on my boy's Fabia - not that easy to do. I think people talk about fitting the more solid ones from the VRS? but I never seriously looked at that. Think I might have gone for the Polybush option if I ever had to do another. - I believe they are easier to do? don't really know though.

 

[Lucero]

Me too, all a bit new to me when bushes are the suspect. I guess, as I say, at 150k on originals, it should definitely be considered.

I assume TCA is short for something? (Trailing Control Arm?)

 

[RUM4MO]

These cars don't have consoles or console bushes, that idea was, thankfully binned for this sector of VW Group cars, its back to normal vertical rubber bonded bushes, but they can easily get torn by potholes/abuse.

Edit:- that Hunter presentation is quite interesting, I wonder how much of that preparation work is done when KwikFit run a Hunter geometry check on cars - from the crazily low castor values that my daughter's late 2009 Ibiza returned, I don't think that KwikFit do much other than use it for toeing correction, camber and castor, well especially castor is not being done correctly - Bother!

Another Edit:- TCA is Track Control Arm, same as front wishbone or lower arm in this case/car.

 

[Crossthreaded]

These cars don't have consoles or console bushes, that idea was, thankfully binned for this sector of VW Group cars, its back to normal vertical rubber bonded bushes, but they can easily get torn by potholes/abuse.

Edit:- that Hunter presentation is quite interesting, I wonder how much of that preparation work is done when KwikFit run a Hunter geometry check on cars - from the crazily low castor values that my daughter's late 2009 Ibiza returned, I don't think that KwikFit do much other than use it for toeing correction, camber and castor, well especially castor is not being done correctly - Bother!

Another Edit:- TCA is Track Control Arm, same as front wishbone or lower arm in this case/car.

Silly me! Of course you're right about those bushes. I noticed it whilst having my first good crawl around Twink (my 206 Ibiza) I think it was the OP's mention of Console Bushes that reminded me of the agro doing my boy's old Fabia and got me thinking along those lines. The new one is much more like the old escort was (hope they last longer).

I have my own tracking gauge (it only does toe and on a majority, but not all, of modern vehicles toe is the only setting which can be easily adjusted - was featured in Car Mechanics Mag a few years back) and I use it on all the family cars whenever I'm doing a service. Other people see me doing this - I work on my front driveway - and it invariably draws comment and ends up in me explaining what I'm doing, followed by "you wouldn't like to check mine for me would you?" Checking takes only minutes so If I've got the time I don't mind obliging - I don't offer to carry out actual adjustment - It's very rare indeed to find a vehicle which is spot on! A noticeable number are out by enough to measurably reduce tyre life. In my opinion comprehensive prechecking is very seldom done in many garages. I also think that rubber bushes are a pest in that, due to the nature of rubber, it's properties quite quickly break down. The bush then becomes "relaxed" often tearing away from the metal parts, and overly compliant spoiling the taught feel you get in a new car and causing a degradation in road holding and excessive tyre wear. I think that worn - but not worn out - suspension components and brake fluid which is not changed every 2, or maybe 3 years, are two of the great neglected areas in car maintenance and are potential contributors to the accident statistics.

Just as an example ask yourself: When did I last change my brake fluid? (or ask the garage to do it - should be done every 2 years but they probably won't unless you specifically ask). This concerns me enough that I bought a boiling point (not the cheap resistance type) fluid tester and use it at least every 6 months on the "family fleet" of 6 vehicles. Thankfully I've only once in my life experienced true brake fade with the pedal going almost to the floor - a most disturbing experience I never want to repeat. This tool gives great peace of mind.

 

[RUM4MO]

I made up a tracking tool, a serious bit of a faff to use, it was a wooden platform with 4 casters, 4 pipe clips, a single roof bar which is adjustable, replacement ends with cranked alloy rod with a few different ends to best suit the inner face of the wheels being checked and a couple of 6 inch rulers - great idea, quickly replaced with a Gunsons Trackrite gauge and balance mat which mimics the height of the Trackrite. Not so easy to use in my current house, it takes a lot of guts one drive under power into the garage and stop before hitting the back wall!

Brake fluid, again Gunsons Easybleeder every 2 years.

One thing, with your brake fluid moisture tester, are you seeing an increase in moisture over the 2 year life of the brake fluid?

Also, do you think that modern cars have a small air hole in the reservoir cap (something that I've guessed is still there but never actually checked)?

 

[Crossthreaded]

I've thought about a trakrite several times but always held back at the last moment. Is it as good as I would like to think it may be? does the balance mat for the other side actually make a difference? Here's a pic of my home made effort - looks very heath robinson but works a treat and is acceptably accurate. Used it for over 30 years so well proven but very wasteful of time when actually making adjustments.

Gunson eezibleed? absolutely essential!

Brake fluid degradation due to water Vs time. Very unpredictable. The old Cordoba seemed to still be ok after 3 plus years (changed it just in case - this was the first car I used it on). Generally yes I do see it degrading but none have been that bad after 2 years. I change them at this interval because it's what the manufacturers recommend and I want to reduce as far as possible the chance of corrosion in the system and to keep the nipples free moving (what with the price of calipers, abs modules etc etc.) and also eliminate the "bolt hole" it potentially could offer an insurer. On reflection, because I follow the 2 year recommendation (well maybe 3, but no longer) I probably wouldn't buy one now. however it is very reassuring when you dunk the probe in and get the "a-ok" confirmation.

Logically there must be some kind of an air bleed in the reservoir otherwise the fluid couldn't move on as the pads/linings wear down? Haven't actually looked for one on a modern set up.. Oh, hold on a minute though. There must be one because if you loosen a bleed nipple fluid will leak out under gravity, but if you remove the reservoir cap, put a crisp packet over the reservoir and screw the cap back on so sealing the reservoir air tight then no fluid leaks out. I do this if I'm going to be working on brake hydraulics where the system has to be "open" for any length of time as it greatly saves air locks in the lines - and maybe ABS module - when you come to bleed out on completion. So there must be some kind of atmospheric access to the reservoir which the crisp packet seals off.

 

[RUM4MO]

Yes I always place a bit of poly under the cap if I have to open the system.

I am encouraged to hear that you did see an increase in the water content over time, some people, and in particular, a older gent in a Polo forum rages on about how this is just sales hype and a complete rip off - fluid lasts as long as the car! I just reply that changing it as per the car maker's recommendation is a lot easier than hoping/guessing it is okay - I backed that up with remarking on the fact that so far, I've noticed while new fluid is "clear yellow" after a year it becomes "not so clear yellow" and so on.

One thing though, for as long as I've replaced brake fluid every 2 years, I've never been able to detect the change over from "old" to "new" fluid as it gets dumped into a glass container, which is not as satisfying as it was in "the old days" when you tended to see "cloudy with black bits" suddenly giving way to "clearer yellow" fluid.

It a bit like servicing your brakes every 2 years, doing that keeps things "good" and things come apart in a predictable manner without shearing bolts etc.

You asked a question about using the balance board with Trakrite - honest answer:- well I was looking on the Tool Academy website for something, and that item sort of popped up, so I just had to buy it, okay it is just a rectangle of hard thick rubber sheet.
The idea behind Trakrite as you might already know is that you adjust the toeing to give zero toeing when the car is being driven under its own power, so it seems to work okay, but like any other DIYer tracking checker, it is only the beginning - not like the drive on, check, adjust that you get with the Hunter etc bench.

I'll have you know that I bought that Trakrite at the same place as I bought my first container of Waxoil - and that was Pilrig Motors!! Which I believe was the first stockist of Waxoil products round about Edinburgh!!

 

[Crossthreaded]

Yes I always place a bit of poly under the cap if I have to open the system.

It a bit like servicing your brakes every 2 years, doing that keeps things "good" and things come apart in a predictable manner without shearing bolts etc.

You asked a question about using the balance board with Trakrite - honest answer:- well I was looking on the Tool Academy website for something, and that item sort of popped up, so I just had to buy it, okay it is just a rectangle of hard thick rubber sheet.
The idea behind Trakrite as you might already know is that you adjust the toeing to give zero toeing when the car is being driven under its own power, so it seems to work okay, but like any other DIYer tracking checker, it is only the beginning - not like the drive on, check, adjust that you get with the Hunter etc bench.

I'll have you know that I bought that Trakrite at the same place as I bought my first container of Waxoil - and that was Pilrig Motors!! Which I believe was the first stockist of Waxoil products round about Edinburgh!!

Yes, regular attention to all those little things that the garage never does (and would cost you a small fortune if they did!) like dismantling, cleaning and applying antiseize to brakes, copasliping around bleed nipples, etc,etc - I could go on for ever - just makes such a difference doesn't it?

I know from my experience back in the late '60's and early '70's with racing cars that you can "mess about" with toe, KPI, Castor, Camber etc to alter how the car uses it's tyres and thus it's handling characteristics and that static toe will be different from that when the car is actually rolling down the road (hence why static toe is not often set at zero). The Trakrite intrigues me though because it's observations are taken with the vehicle driving forward so, presumably, is as near to how that tyre is actually being presented to the road when driving and, if you want best tyre life, then a zero reading when actually rolling down the road, is surely what would be desirable? As you say though, all these things are limited in what you can achieve as you are looking at the front wheels in isolation. No reference possible with rear wheels/axle or possible chassis anomalies.

Pilrig Motors? I've known those lads for many years, 30 at least! very helpful and pleasant people. I suspect it's a place frequented by most Edinburgh DIY car enthusiasts? I still have one of the old metal waxoyl cans in my garden shed! Used to buy a lot of service items there after we moved back to Edinburgh - around 40 years ago now - before I became friendly with Malcolm and Phil at Edinburgh Motor Factors (who sold me "big name" filters like Mahle and others at very good prices. Sadly now closed down. I find SRS are pretty good though. A few years ago you had to watch what they (SRS) were offering you brands wise but now it's all names I know and trust - not quite such good prices as I got from EMF but better by a fair bit compared to Pentland or Euro.

Can I be rude enough to ask if you are Edinburgh based? From your recollections regarding Pilrig Motors I'm guessing you may be. I live in the north of the city - Warriston/Leith/Newhaven are my stomping grounds.

Kind regards

 

[RUM4MO]

Outside Penicuik as that was at one time known as one of the places that Ferranti employees tended to head for if they planned to buy a house and raise a family.

 

[Crossthreaded]

Outside Penicuik as that was at one time known as one of the places that Ferranti employees tended to head for if they planned to buy a house and raise a family.

Small world isn't it. Some years ago I was very friendly with a Ferranti chap (did things he wasn't allowed to talk about!) He was into building specials using aircraft quality materials (composits etc). At that time he was "concocting" something with an alfa Sud Boxer engine and gearbox but mid mounted! He wasn't as knowledgeable as I on mechanicals but it was fascinating what he knew about materials. He went to live south of the city too, but after retirement moved away south into deepest England and I haven't seen him for years. We do exchange Christmas cards which is nice as it keeps us all up to date with our families and what the kids are doing. My wife and his became very friendly.