Surge on Stage 1 K04 - Cured

[Harris.]

I'm getting concerned now as mine has very similar if not the same issue. I'm stage 1 mapped also yet with forge tip.

On my LG the actual goes over requested and always reads 22.4 actual. I'm worries that this is actually much more as the LG can't read over that. Perhaps I need to fit a MBC too or have I got other issues. It doesn't throw any faults logged

 

[JamJay]

Hi Harris, sounds like exactly what I have, do you get the 'flutter' sound on wide open throttle from low revs also?

I think it's a combination of the ECU map and the notoriously spikey K04 doing their worst. I think that my map isn't that well suited to the car now that I've pushed it harder so that's something I need to change.

Mark's (Audi TT) car was fine for 2yrs and then this problem started which is weird, in his case definitely points towards something failing but for me it's come on a little while after I upgraded parts so I reckon it's a bad ECU adaptation to be honest or rather that the ECU can't adapt based on how it was mapped..

P.S. Interesting that you also have AMD Stage 1 but that said it has been fine for 2yrs prior.

 

[Harris.]

Yep I get that flutter sound too. I had mine on the RR day at Amd recently and they told me I had a boost leak. At this stage I didn't have the problem. Since then I replaced all the hoses under the inlet manifold and since then I seem to have had this issue. I did a Gs reading last Night too and the max I can read is 197 and that's with a Jetex. I'm going to rip it apart the weekend and investigate.

 

[JamJay]

You're looking for a needle in a haystack, I've ripped things out, put them back and I can find nothing so I'm building a leak tester this weekend so I can listen out for any leaks. My car is pulling 226g/s on AMD stage 1, that's a lot and testament to the 3" TIP.

Other than that I'm replacing the black temp sensor for a green one (long overdue), TB clean & reset, service 007DV and check all my plugs and coils. One of these should nail the hesitation issue at least.

 

[JamJay]

Hi all.

Today I...

- Replaced the coolant temp sensor (black for green), the engine now feels a lot cooler under the bonnet after a hard run and also hesitation has gone.
- Boost leak tested the car and found nothing.
- Cleaned the TB and reset it via VAGCOM. The TB was at 10.9% before and now sits at 15.9% so I assume it was quite a way out. The car feels like its old self again, power delivery is smoother but it wants to rip the steering wheel out of my hands.

I did several runs today and I could feel the effects of heat soak so again proof that the little OE coolers can't hack it. Since the TB reset, the surge is less severe actually which means that I've ruled out everything now apart from FMIC & remap.

All in all, although the car isn't cured, I am very happy to have it back performing pretty much as well is it did but I'll report back after stage 2 code is loaded and MBC.

 

[Harris.]

Hi all.

Today I...

- Replaced the coolant temp sensor (black for green), the engine now feels a lot cooler under the bonnet after a hard run and also hesitation has gone.
- Boost leak tested the car and found nothing.
- Cleaned the TB and reset it via VAGCOM. The TB was at 10.9% before and now sits at 15.9% so I assume it was quite a way out. The car feels like its old self again, power delivery is smoother but it wants to rip the steering wheel out of my hands.

I did several runs today and I could feel the effects of heat soak so again proof that the little OE coolers can't hack it. Since the TB reset, the surge is less severe actually which means that I've ruled out everything now apart from FMIC & remap.

All in all, although the car isn't cured, I am very happy to have it back performing pretty much as well is it did but I'll report back after stage 2 code is loaded and MBC.

I'm glad you have made it better mate. I was going to comment today to see how you was getting on. I checked mine over and found the dv to intake pipe slightly leaking and the cam cover breather split. I replaced them yesterday and the car feels more sprightly yet like you the standard intercoolers are struggling. My intake temps barely went below 30 yesterday and the car was lucky to boost to 18 and hold 14. When checking actual and specified they were pretty much even. I'm assuming that this is due to the heat soak.

I'm severely getting the ump with the car now tbh. I had Rs turbos before this and never had boost leaks like I do on this car. All I seem to do is chasing faults all the time.

 

[Mo Arif]

glad you sorted it mate

 

[JamJay]

Hi all. I don't like leaving threads unconcluded so I am continuing to add to this as I discover more.

I ran another leak test yesterday and revealed 3 leaks in the PCV system. Nothing anywhere else and the IC pipe work is sound . One leak was on the cam cover breather, the single use clip had come loose and allowed a leak so I've fixed that with a new jubilee clip. The other two leaks are under the inlet manifold in the PCV pipe work & Y-Piece, I've ordered new hose to fit to the FPR & DV just in case but I'll strip the PCV system this weekend and see what's what.

I had to unplug my EGT sensor to remove the metal plate infront of the inlet manifold, I plugged this back in but not correctly which threw the following fault I believe as I have not had this the entire time that I've had these issues.

17864 - Exhaust Gas Temp Regulation for Bank 1: Limit Reached
P1456 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

I will keep scanning the car as always to see if this comes back, if it does (touch wood it doesn't) then I'll have to check all the wiring to the EGT sensor, run point to point tests on the wiring and then the final solution will be replacing the sensor but at £150+ I'd rather not. The cause of this fault could also be the 'bad' mapping on the car right now also so I won't address this fully until I have Stage 2 code on the car and the leaks fixed.

Anyway, onto the positive side...I have a Forge Big Race cooler coming next week sometime I hope which should swallow some of this surge.

 

[JamJay]

Hi everyone. I just wanted to keep this alive and now finally try to put it to bed.

I fitted a Forge Big Race Intercooler to my setup this weekend and I had a chance to test it out. The additional size of the cooler has done a great job of swallowing up all that excess charge air, well not all of it but the surge that I do have is about 95% improved. I believe that the rest is down to the mapping which is taking place on Saturday where the car will have a custom Stage 2 map loaded to accomodate the exhaust, FMIC & 3" TIP.

I'll let you know if this solves it finally which I am sure it will and I hope that anyone who ever has the same issue can look in this thread and find it useful.

Again, thanks to everyone for the advice & help.

 

[JamJay]

Hi all.

So to shut this down, the car just went in for Stage 2 mapping to accomodate all of the new parts inc the 3" tip, exhaust and FMIC. The surge has no completely gone, so anyone who reads this with the same problems, I really recommend you look at your intercooler setup & most importantly the mapping of the car.

 

[Mark300zx]

Can I ask to have a passenger ride to see what stage 2 feels like and did the mappers confirm what was causing the surge issue?

 

[JamJay]

Mark, that'd be no problem at all, PM me and we'll arrange this .

The surge was caused by inefficient coolers unable to consume all of the air that the 3" TIP was able to generate, a large FMIC did wonders here but the main reason was the mapping. My Stage 1 generic map was unable to compensate for all of the Stage 2 mods that I had fitted, it was particularly upset with the extra air entering the engine as it couldn't seem to figure out what to do with it all once it was in there. Now that it has been mapped the car is able to consume what it is asking for where as before it was mapped to consume a certain amount of air at 'X' revs where it expected to see a certain amount of airflow however it was getting a huge amount more than that.

 

[ibizacupra]

this is exactly what I had suggested on the k04 hybrid thread.

surge is inability of the system to flow the air @ that rpm... but its the "system" you have to look at.. All of it. Any bottle neck and component which suffers losses will loose pressure and cause flow loss.. which then fights against a compressor.

Glad you have sorted it.
Folks reading this.. think total flow for your installs.

 

[Mo Arif]

Did you have the standard side mounts before or some other intercooler ?

 

[JamJay]

Thanks Bill and with your TIP the car was able to produce 290bhp on a warm day (ok, dyno dependant but still...)...very very happy!

I was using standard coolers Mo, they just couldn't flow enough so the air was getting built up in the turbo under WOT at 2500 - 4000rpm. Forge unit on there now, absolutely brilliant & well worth the money.

 

[godzuki]

Interesting read,i now have the same sort of problem but i'll look into it before posting.

 

[8bit]

Bit of thread resurrection. I've been getting the flutter sound on WOT just after the boost hits peak at about 3500 and lasting up until 4500 or so. Having done a fair bit of research on surge I found an article on VAGfans which explains what surging really is and a lot of things it's not. I posted it here - http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=349959

In my case I think I'm hearing the N75 dump air back into the TIP (rapidly at first but slowing quickly as revs rise and boost falls). If folk were getting actual compressor surge it would be accompanied by a violent shaking of the car, from what the article says.

Just posting this here as a few folk (me included) have said they notice this flutter sound on WOT since fitting big TIPs like the B5 and SFS ones. I found the following posted in a thread on VWVortex by a tuner in the US called GonzoTuning which would seem to support this:

I've noticed that this is a common occurrence with the newer production year cars. For example, 2001 (AWW) and 2002-2003 (AWP) have no issues holding boost perfectly, but 2004 and 2005 MY's have issues holding boost properly sometimes, even with the same exact software. Its not 'surging' by definition, its a mere fluctuation due to the wastegate opening and closing, but it only happens is SOME cars. Not all.

Obviously this is all stuff from the internet so could be incorrect but it may shed some light on this.

 

[t0m]

Bit of thread resurrection. I've been getting the flutter sound on WOT just after the boost hits peak at about 3500 and lasting up until 4500 or so. Having done a fair bit of research on surge I found an article on VAGfans which explains what surging really is and a lot of things it's not. I posted it here - http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=349959

In my case I think I'm hearing the N75 dump air back into the TIP (rapidly at first but slowing quickly as revs rise and boost falls). If folk were getting actual compressor surge it would be accompanied by a violent shaking of the car, from what the article says.

Just posting this here as a few folk (me included) have said they notice this flutter sound on WOT since fitting big TIPs like the B5 and SFS ones. I found the following posted in a thread on VWVortex by a tuner in the US called GonzoTuning which would seem to support this:



Obviously this is all stuff from the internet so could be incorrect but it may shed some light on this.

When I had my Badger5 TIP and had this flutter noise, Kenny at AmD told me it was the wastegate so matches up well to other findings.

No flutter with the SFS though, been good as gold.

 

[ibizacupra]

I doubt its wastegate personally..... DV rising and falling off its seat was one thing doug (~frankenturbo) found at one point on his F23 K04 hybrid setup, which was cured by making the DV spring rate firmer keeping it shut. It did not eliminate the flutter on sub 4krpm spool, but reduced it, so it was a factor but not the only one. Aggressive boost spike, and the increased airflows from the large bore tips is what on a minority of cars can cause the flutter surge. Hybrids and Surge are a known issue, and with the advent iof the high flow TIPs, combined with spikey initial boost maps, some k04's also seem to show this.

It is s combination of factors tho, all derived by flow... and this is where the cars will vary... different softwares asking for different boost levels, different charge pipework setups, fmic's, dp, exhausts etc etc all which have an influence on flow... Its the engines inability to Flow at those sub 4krpms which can cause surge..

As an example on hybrids, keeping initial spool non-spikey, and below 20-21psi until past 4krpm keeps them the right side of their surge line.

No flutter on a TIP change proves it flows less......

 

[8bit]

I doubt its wastegate personally..... DV rising and falling off its seat was one thing doug (~frankenturbo) found at one point on his F23 K04 hybrid setup, which was cured by making the DV spring rate firmer keeping it shut. It did not eliminate the flutter on sub 4krpm spool, but reduced it, so it was a factor but not the only one. Aggressive boost spike, and the increased airflows from the large bore tips is what on a minority of cars can cause the flutter surge. Hybrids and Surge are a known issue, and with the advent iof the high flow TIPs, combined with spikey initial boost maps, some k04's also seem to show this.

It is s combination of factors tho, all derived by flow... and this is where the cars will vary... different softwares asking for different boost levels, different charge pipework setups, fmic's, dp, exhausts etc etc all which have an influence on flow... Its the engines inability to Flow at those sub 4krpms which can cause surge..

As an example on hybrids, keeping initial spool non-spikey, and below 20-21psi until past 4krpm keeps them the right side of their surge line.

No flutter on a TIP change proves it flows less......

As you say I think there are a number of things which can make this sound. I'm running a blue spring in Forge008, non-reversed so I really can't see it being the DV. I've tried yellow spring, yellow + 1 shim, yellow + 2 shims and blue and the noise hasn't changed at all.

Other thing is, when I went back to my old-style THS TIP I could still hear the noise, just quieter than with the B5 one. The B5 TIP makes all other noises (DV, induction etc) louder than the THS one so in my case I think that proves it's definitely something connected to the TIP. The B5 TIP obviously has a far larger internal volume than the THS item so will resonate more, like a larger loudspeaker cabinet will produce more sound (basically speaking).

For clarity's sake I have Revo stage 1 and peak boost is around 23.5psi at 3500rpm. The flutter noise appears immediately as I hit peak boost, right at the point the N75 will start to fluctuate the boost to the wastegate actuator. This will happen very rapidly at first and then slow down as boost falls. I'm not saying you're wrong Bill but if all of this is coincidence then I'd be very surprised.

I think it's also worth checking what that article says about surge - just a flutter noise from peak boost for a couple of seconds isn't necessarily compressor surge, if that article is true then there would be a noticeable effect on power delivery.