Robbie C's Ibiza Cupra

[joehirth]

Cheers - yeah you shouldn't be disappointed

I see you've gone for rods; are you going for an aggressive map?

Not much news on mine lately but I should be moving the Cupra into a friend's garage next week to begin taking things apart ready to send my diff off to SQS and my turbo over to CR/TD for the K06 hybrid work. I'll be ordering the gearbox on Mon/Tues

Going with the SQS box?? That's going to be a nice Christmas present to yourself

 

[Chris86]

awesome car mate! love your intercooler setup, whats the dimensions of it?

 

[arron2004]

Cheers - yeah you shouldn't be disappointed

I see you've gone for rods; are you going for an aggressive map?

I asked bill to get as much power and fun as can be had, he is doing my wmi in Jan! So I I'm not sure how aggressive it shall be!

 

[Robbie C]

Going with the SQS box?? That's going to be a nice Christmas present to yourself

Yeah going with the SQS 5-spd synchro street gear set as per http://www.sqsracing.com/produkt/276:362:synchro-box-racing-competition

awesome car mate! love your intercooler setup, whats the dimensions of it?

Cheers, here's the final design I gave to Pro Alloy to work from:

It's very similar to the A&M kits that used to be sold before they went out of business, with a slightly narrower but longer core. If you went for a shorter core you'd have much less bumper trimming to do as it was the end tanks that fouled the most, though I wanted to retain the overall core volume.

I asked bill to get as much power and fun as can be had, he is doing my wmi in Jan! So I I'm not sure how aggressive it shall be!

Sounds good - glad to see you've done it properly, it'll make for some big grins

 

[PhilW]

And the fact you still have AC on your car...

 

[Robbie C]

Very valid point yes - note to anyone else reading this and considering a FMIC - bin the A/C and save yourself hassle, and weight.

That being said, when it was 30 Deg C on the way to the ring last year and I was sat in Brussel's rush hour traffic there was nothing better than air con

 

[hillbill]

Quality built motor..............

I'll be watching this space, as i'm looking at sending my current CR Turbos hybrid K03 (RS6 spec), off my golf mk4 1.8t agu, back to cr turbo's to have a new turbine housing fitted due to a hairline crack near the wastegate, but if there is a new spec of hybrid then i'll hold off and see what results you get, then maybe look at getting mine upgraded too, to the new 2283 compressor wheel at the same time as getting the new turbine housing fitted, as i beleive mine is a early cr turbos hybrid (2006) that had the k04 compressor housing fitted with a k03 charge pipe outlet welded on for Golf mk4 fitment, so the 2283 billet compressor wheel should fit once milled out : )

Are you having your wategate ported? And the turbine wheel clipped?

Failing that i'm thinking off going BT, as i've seen a kit for sale at a good price and may work out not much more ££ to go down that route if i sell of my hybrid setup, as i also have most other supporting mods apart from forged internals which i planned on doing anway at some point..

Good luck anyway with the hybrid and it's results

 

[Robbie C]

Thanks very much.

It's still early days with this particular hybrid yet, especially on the Ibiza AYP/AQX (non VVT) engines but someone has to be the guinea pig.

My existing K03 hybrid is what's known as an MD445 spec by Turbo Dynamics, which to my knowledge is in fact a JBS04.

Turbo Dynamics quote the spec as:
K04 turbo with Hi flow K04 compressor wheel, cnc machined compressor housing , large
trim K04 turbine wheel, lightening of turbine wheel for faster ‘spool up’, cnc modified
turbine housing, ported wastegate, uprated turbine seals. Other ‘blueprinting’
modifications. 12 psi Uprated actuator. Rated to APPROX 280-300 BHP

Speaking to Turbo Dynamics directly I'm told that the large trim K04 turbine wheel is in fact the same RS6 wheel that is fitted to the K04 Stage 4 MD421 that CR Turbos base their hybrids from - so the hotside should be as near identical as can be.

The "lightening of turbine wheel" apparently means they have used an RS6 CHRA which has had non-essential material removed - I'm assured the wheel itself isn't clipped/cutback which induces lag.

Here's the info I've been given:

Hi Rob,

I was still in the UK I’m sorry to say, some winter sun would have been nice!

You’re close, the Mazda, Ford and Volvos use the 2280 wheel whilst Vauxhall use the 2277. The TTS and S3 use the 2283 wheel. Borg Warners classification system remains elusive to everyone – I’ve met BW employees who don’t understand it fully! Luckily when it comes to compressor wheel long spec number (2283 etc) some logic is applied.

Kind Regards

Matt Waterman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Clarke
Sent: 29 November 2010 15:10
To: Matt Waterman
Subject: Re: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Hey Matt,

No worries, thanks for getting back to me. Spend it anywhere nice? Hopefully somewhere warmer than the UK.

I spent some time last week researching these new gen of K06 wheels and found a fair amount of information online; though Borg Warner's model numbering system remains elusive to me.

Seems the K06 comes in three flavours (2277, 2280, 2283) and is Borg Warner's (or more specifically, AirWerks) new S generation of comp wheels using "Extended Tip Technology" (http://www.turbodriven.com/files/pdf/BW_AirWerks_2011_Brochure.pdf), the 2283 being the largest in the range, as used in the new Audi S3 and TTS in the K04-064 (http://eng.turbo3k.com/catalogue/d-10326/ and http://www.turbodriven.com/files/pdf/BWTS_2011_Catalog_SMALL.pdf).

I _think_ it's the slightly smaller 2280 K06 wheel that's used on the VXRs, Mazda 3 MPS etc?

So if I went ahead with this work I'd essentially end up with a K03-2283 hybrid I guess.

Cheers,

Rob

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Waterman
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 2:18 PM
To: Rob Clarke
Subject: RE: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Hi Rob,

Apologies for the late reply, I was on holiday last week and my email autoforward wasn’t doing what it says on the tin!

Lightening a shaft is simply non critical material removal to reduce the weight of the rotor assembly. It is not a cut-back (although this is material removal such little material is removed it will make no difference – infact a cutback increases lag as it reduces blade area of the turbine wheel).

The compressor wheel is classed as a K06 piece by Borg Warner, no idea why though as the only K06 turbo produced was for an Alfa in the early 90s and the compressor wheel is certainly not from that! A lot of the new generation of Borg Warner compressor wheels are classed as K06 (Focus ST, Astra VXR etc).

Kind Regards

Matt Waterman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Clarke
Sent: 19 November 2010 15:58
To: Matt Waterman
Subject: Re: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Hi Matt,

Thanks for clarifying, appreciate your help.

When you say lightened shaft, do you mean a modified centre housing with a standard RS6 turbine wheel?

Both the MD445 and MD421 mention "lightening of turbine wheel for faster ‘spool up’" which is why I questioned whether it had been cut-back? I.e. how do you lighten a wheel without it being cut-back? Perhaps I've misunderstood the terminology here, but just want to clarify.

Also just out of interest, what precisely is meant by a "K06" comp wheel? I had initially assumed this referred to an RS6 comp wheel, but a little searching suggests these appear to be the new generation billet wheels fitted by Borg Warner, which begs the question; which turbos do they come from? I'm intrigued as to what this would make my turbo once complete! K03-K06 hybrid?

Best regards,

Rob

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Waterman
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 9:32 AM
To: Rob Clarke
Subject: RE: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Hi Rob,

Thank you for the information, I can confirm your turbo has a lightened RS6 shaft fitted to it.

To be honest I did suspect the pipe diameter would be different on the K04 turbo but I currently do not have a K03S turbo in stock to check the difference on…we don’t CNC a turbine housing to improve flow, they are sometimes hand ported if requested by the customer but we have found this is mainly just a cosmetic thing and provides little (if any) benefit.

A breakdown of the price quoted is as follows:

Standard overhaul of turbo - £150.00 + vat

New 360 thrust kit - £50.00 + vat

Upgrade of Compressor side to K06 comp wheel including supply and fitment of K04 compressor cover - £250.00 + vat

As you can see this adds up to £450.00 + vat for the work. If we found more work was required to the turbo (oversize rings etc) then this would be more, similarly if the job went well I could maybe shave some cost off bringing it closer to the £400 mark. I’d rather quote you a realistic price and then potentially reduce it rather than quote low and have to phone you up asking for more money as the job progresses.

Kind Regards

Matt Waterman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Clarke
Sent: 17 November 2010 17:41
To: Matt Waterman
Subject: Re: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Thanks Matt, sounds good.

I believe the serial number is xxxxx, order # xxxxx under A/C No. xxxxx

I've been in touch with Mark at CR Turbos this afternoon to discuss the same sort of thing who seems to think that the K04 compressor outlet is larger than the K03S so it wouldn't be a straight forward weld, though I imagine it ought to be possible to fabricate something suitable if required.

Can you also confirm whether this particular turbo has a CNC modified turbine housing for improved flow over a standard K03 hotside and similarly whether there's any room for any additional flow improvements?

Comparing the turbine housings of a K03 vs a K04 reveals that the K03 wheel is nested much further into the housing than the K04, hindering flow; though perhaps offset against the fact it is isolated away from the wastegate port.

Mark has quoted £250 to upgrade my existing turbo to an equivalent MD421 cold side, using a K06 billet aluminium wheel and modified K04 compressor cover, including an uprated thrust bearing if deemed necessary upon inspection.

I know you advised of an overhaul of my turbo for £400-500 ; can you advise what this would entail above and beyond what Mark has quoted? I've covered 7,000 miles on this turbo from new, including a mix of fast road and track driving with the remap tuned to request 24 PSI peak.

Thanks for your continued help,

Rob

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Waterman
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:04 PM
To: Rob Clarke
Subject: RE: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Hi Rob,

You are quite correct, we could put the compressor end of an MD421 onto your existing turbo (which should use the same RS6 turbine wheel – if you can give me the serial number from your turbo I can confirm this 100%) effectively giving you an MD421 with a K03S turbine housing.

Kind Regards

Matt Waterman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Clarke
Sent: 16 November 2010 19:02
To: Matt Waterman
Subject: Re: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Hi Matt,

Thanks for clarifying, that's a great help. So to confirm with 100% certainty, you could swap my existing cold side assembly for a milled K04 housing (with the option of welding a K03S sleeve for OE fitment, diameter permitting) to specifically accommodate the 2283 spec billet aluminium K06 (RS6) wheel used in the MD421, utilising my existing hot side setup which uses the same RS6 wheel as comes fitted in the MD421, which is not clipped?

Essentially, an MD421 retaining a K03 hotside that utilises the same RS6 turbine wheel.

The only reason I stress these points is that a reputable VAG tuner seems to believe he recently fitted what was claimed by the customer to be an MD421 which had a smaller, clipped turbine wheel that obviously failed to make the same power output as the equivalent MD421 spec from CR Turbos. This description better fits the Stage 3 MD364 which does seem to use a smaller, cut-back turbine wheel.

If this is the case I am very interested in proceeding with this upgrade within the very near future.

Kind regards,

Rob

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Waterman
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 2:43 PM
To: Rob Clarke
Subject: RE: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Hi Rob,

Not a problem. You are correct in saying the MD421 and MD445 share the same turbine wheel. Whilst both housings are of a similar A/R the K04 item found on an MD421 is slightly larger than that found MD445 meaning is would ultimately support slightly more airflow but in all honesty the difference is probably negligible at best!

In theory the outlet from the K03S could be mated to a K04 cover (providing both pieces have the same internal diameter), to do this would require quite a complex jig to ensure correct length and angle. We saw how critical these are when you had your problems with the exhaust manifold so it’s not something that should really be attempted by eye! Luckily these sort of jigs are something we are familiar with through our work on RS4 and RS6s!

Pricewise, including the price of an overhaul of your existing turbocharger including new uprated thrust kit, I’d anticipate the price being around £400-£500 + vat (providing your turbo is ok). This price excludes the modifying of the outlet to suit a K03S, having not done this before there is a small amount of guesswork involved but I anticipate this would take no more than 1 hour charged at £60.00 + vat per hour.

I hope this helps

Kind Regards

Matt Waterman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Clarke
Sent: 16 November 2010 14:08
To: Matt Waterman
Subject: Re: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Hi Matt,

I'm good thanks. Thanks for the quick reply and useful information.

Is this to say that the RS6 wheel in the MD421 is the exact same spec as already installed in my MD445? If so, is it only the physical difference in the size of the turbine housings themselves that are different?

I understand that I'd need to alter my cold side pipework to suit which isn't an issue - though I'm curious as to whether you could weld the sleeve of a K03S onto the K04 to maintain OE fitment, assuming they are the same internal diameter?

Can you advise how much I'd be looking at to get this work done if I sent you my MD445?

Many thanks,

Rob

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Waterman
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:39 PM
To: Rob Clarke
Subject: RE: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Hi Rob,

I’m very well thank you, I trust you are the same.

The first thing I should say is that your MD445 already has an RS6 turbine wheel in it (this is what we refer to as the large trim turbine wheel). On neither the MD445 nor the MD421 do we normally cutback the turbine wheel blades (unless you specifically request it) as going up to the large turbine wheel will potentially increase lag as it is without doing cutbacks. If you wish we could perform a cutback though.

Fitting the MD421 compressor cover in itself isn’t a problem (you would have to modify your pipework to suit the new inlet & outlet though).

The K04 exhaust housings are not available as separate items so it would have to retain the K03S turbine housing but other than that the spec would be identical to that found in the MD421.

I hope this helps…

Kind Regards

Matt Waterman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Clarke
Sent: 16 November 2010 12:45
To: Matt Waterman
Subject: Re: MD445 K03 hybrid specs

Hi Matt,

Hope you're well.

There's been a few threads flying around the SEAT Cupra forum lately regarding the K04 Hybrids that yourselves and CR Turbos are supplying to various customers, with very healthy results.

I am currently still running the MD445 K03 Hybrid but have a request....

Are you able to take a K03 (either my MD445 or another standard unit) and build this to an MD421 spec that is currently offered as a K04 hybrid. In effect, a K04 hybrid in K03 fitment.

By this I mean, replacing the compressor housing with a milled out K04 housing, fitting the K06 billet-aluminium compressor wheel and fitting the standard turbine housing (milled to suit) with a clipped RS6 turbine wheel?

Obviously it wouldn't be the simplest of jobs, but it ought to be possible?

For reference, see http://seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=291477&page=3 and http://seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=261476

Your input would be appreciated and I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Many thanks,

Rob

All being well therefore, my hotside is ready to go, I just need to replace the compressor side with the billet K06 2283 trim wheel from the K04-064 as fitted to new TT RS and S3, and a milled out K04 compressor housing to accommodate it with a modified outlet to adjoin my intercooler pipework.

Turbo Dynamics have quoted £400-500 for the work whereas Mark at CR has quoted £250 so I'm going with them, also bearing in mind Bill has seen these for himself. So, my hybrid is undergoing hybrid treatment.

 

[Robbie C]

Following the developments in Badger 5's thread it seems there are a few issues to be ironed out yet which is still ongoing while testing continues.

As the 2283 K06 wheel is much larger than the RS6 trim turbine wheel then it looks as though it's capable of out-flowing it to the extent that the engine can't flow enough to keep up with the boost it is provided in the lower RPM, causing surging. The answer may lie with a largeport head and/or NA cams to help raise the VE of the engine but this all remains to be seen with ongoing testing at Badger 5.

Clipping the turbine may also be another option, though if my understanding is correct this will essentialy restrict potential power. I'm running the new JBS cast hi-flow manifold which I'm also having ported to optimise flow as much as possible.

For my Ibiza I'm also going to need to adjust a few things in order to be able to fit a 3" TIP in my engine bay, namely a coolant pipe and gear linkage, with the ABS pump also looking very close... it's not going to be a five minute plug and play job like a normal hybrid. I've also had to order some new Bosch 550 injectors and adaptors.

For those thinking about going hybrid then this may soon offer a more potent alternative to the standard K03 hybrid, but it won't be a simple upgrade on the Ibiza at least - potentially even requiring headwork.

If I didn't have a hybrid that has some, if not most of the required work already done then it would be easy to argue that for similar money and effort you could go BT - though this should still give a nice punch from low down in the rev range which is what I love about my existing setup.

My gearbox is now also on order and the car is ready to start being taken apart ready for the work in January so watch this space.

 

[GTi T]

excellent robbie,good luck with it all mate, heres to 2011!

 

[Robbie C]

Cheers Tom, hope all is well with you

 

[hillbill]

Following the developments in Badger 5's thread it seems there are a few issues to be ironed out yet which is still ongoing while testing continues.

As the 2283 K06 wheel is much larger than the RS6 trim turbine wheel then it looks as though it's capable of out-flowing it to the extent that the engine can't flow enough to keep up with the boost it is provided in the lower RPM, causing surging. The answer may lie with a largeport head and/or NA cams to help raise the VE of the engine but this all remains to be seen with ongoing testing at Badger 5.

Clipping the turbine may also be another option, though if my understanding is correct this will essentialy restrict potential power. I'm running the new JBS cast hi-flow manifold which I'm also having ported to optimise flow as much as possible.

For my Ibiza I'm also going to need to adjust a few things in order to be able to fit a 3" TIP in my engine bay, namely a coolant pipe and gear linkage, with the ABS pump also looking very close... it's not going to be a five minute plug and play job like a normal hybrid. I've also had to order some new Bosch 550 injectors and adaptors.

For those thinking about going hybrid then this may soon offer a more potent alternative to the standard K03 hybrid, but it won't be a simple upgrade on the Ibiza at least - potentially even requiring headwork.

If I didn't have a hybrid that has some, if not most of the required work already done then it would be easy to argue that for similar money and effort you could go BT - though this should still give a nice punch from low down in the rev range which is what I love about my existing setup.

My gearbox is now also on order and the car is ready to start being taken apart ready for the work in January so watch this space.

This is my reason for questioning whether to go BT or not, one reason i'm leaning towards BT is the fact my hybrid needs to come off for a new turbine housing to be fitted and i still need injectors and custom remap for my hybrid setup, all of which i would do anyway if i went BT, so the only extra cost involved would only be buying the big turbo kit, but the cost would be wavered by selling my hybrid setup.

Fitting Bt kit wouldn't be much more than the cost of having my hybrid taken off, new turbine housing fitted and having it fitted again, the only thing that will cost me more is the fact that i will 100% have to forge my engine ie pistons, rods, valves, but if i'm keeping my motor for the long term, which i plan to, then this can only be a good thing for reliability.

The big turbo kit i'm looking at is a twin scroll which i'm led to believe spool quick for BT's, so driveability wouldn't be a million miles away from a hybrid turbo, unlike some BT's....

But the other side of me want's to keep the hybrid " don't fix something if it isn't broken " ie if it runs ok and i'm happy with it's power delivery, why change it.

I'm also going to need my gearbox refubing in the near future due to second gear syncro, so will be looking at the cost of going for a sqs gearset compaired to the genuine vag gearset. I'll also be getting a diff fitted at the same time..

 

[Prebs]

Following the developments in Badger 5's thread it seems there are a few issues to be ironed out yet which is still ongoing while testing continues.

As the 2283 K06 wheel is much larger than the RS6 trim turbine wheel then it looks as though it's capable of out-flowing it to the extent that the engine can't flow enough to keep up with the boost it is provided in the lower RPM, causing surging. The answer may lie with a largeport head and/or NA cams to help raise the VE of the engine but this all remains to be seen with ongoing testing at Badger 5.

Clipping the turbine may also be another option, though if my understanding is correct this will essentialy restrict potential power. I'm running the new JBS cast hi-flow manifold which I'm also having ported to optimise flow as much as possible.

For my Ibiza I'm also going to need to adjust a few things in order to be able to fit a 3" TIP in my engine bay, namely a coolant pipe and gear linkage, with the ABS pump also looking very close... it's not going to be a five minute plug and play job like a normal hybrid. I've also had to order some new Bosch 550 injectors and adaptors.

For those thinking about going hybrid then this may soon offer a more potent alternative to the standard K03 hybrid, but it won't be a simple upgrade on the Ibiza at least - potentially even requiring headwork.

If I didn't have a hybrid that has some, if not most of the required work already done then it would be easy to argue that for similar money and effort you could go BT - though this should still give a nice punch from low down in the rev range which is what I love about my existing setup.

My gearbox is now also on order and the car is ready to start being taken apart ready for the work in January so watch this space.

Mine hasnt arrived yet but will hopefully soon. I´m quite sure that Mark fitted RS6 blades witch wasn´t clipped. This wasnt even a subject at that point and has first bin revealed to me the last couple of days in Badger section. Hopefully these turbo´s will fit the ibiza after Bill has worked his magic hands on either yours or his own lupo.

I also had small boost judder/surge issue on my k03s setup witch has now bin removed due to upprated internals. Tried to change spring, all vacum hoses, checked cooler hoses etc but I did run high boost on it. Never found the source thou.

Have you removed your turbo yet Robbie?

 

[Robbie C]

This is my reason for questioning whether to go BT or not, one reason i'm leaning towards BT is the fact my hybrid needs to come off for a new turbine housing to be fitted and i still need injectors and custom remap for my hybrid setup, all of which i would do anyway if i went BT, so the only extra cost involved would only be buying the big turbo kit, but the cost would be wavered by selling my hybrid setup.

Fitting Bt kit wouldn't be much more than the cost of having my hybrid taken off, new turbine housing fitted and having it fitted again, the only thing that will cost me more is the fact that i will 100% have to forge my engine ie pistons, rods, valves, but if i'm keeping my motor for the long term, which i plan to, then this can only be a good thing for reliability.

The big turbo kit i'm looking at is a twin scroll which i'm led to believe spool quick for BT's, so driveability wouldn't be a million miles away from a hybrid turbo, unlike some BT's....

But the other side of me want's to keep the hybrid " don't fix something if it isn't broken " ie if it runs ok and i'm happy with it's power delivery, why change it.

I'm also going to need my gearbox refubing in the near future due to second gear syncro, so will be looking at the cost of going for a sqs gearset compaired to the genuine vag gearset. I'll also be getting a diff fitted at the same time..

That's it at the end of the day, different strokes different folks.

I have a friend with a BT Impreza and while it's very quick, I much prefer the instantaneous power delivery and aggressive kick of torque mine gives very low down in the power band. This is of course however offset against top end grunt.

Mine hasnt arrived yet but will hopefully soon. I´m quite sure that Mark fitted RS6 blades witch wasn´t clipped. This wasnt even a subject at that point and has first bin revealed to me the last couple of days in Badger section. Hopefully these turbo´s will fit the ibiza after Bill has worked his magic hands on either yours or his own lupo.

I also had small boost judder/surge issue on my k03s setup witch has now bin removed due to upprated internals. Tried to change spring, all vacum hoses, checked cooler hoses etc but I did run high boost on it. Never found the source thou.

Have you removed your turbo yet Robbie?

Not yet Prebs, work starts on the car in January

Your turbo shouldn't have a clipped wheel

 

[Prebs]

Not yet Prebs, work starts on the car in January

Your turbo shouldn't have a clipped wheel

Will you be fitting clipped turbine wheel or will you be going for the same spec as I´ve got. Only difference is your´s beeing TD ofcourse.

 

[Robbie C]

Mine already has an unclipped RS6 turbine wheel according to TD which I was going to leave as is but depending on Bill's developments and his discussions with Mark at CR I'll wait and see for now

 

[PhilW]

Robbie' have you bought injectors yet? I'm thinking of swapping mine to 630's.

 

[Robbie C]

Literally just bought some 550s yesterday Phil - is that what you're running now?

Prebs is after a set of 550s with adaptors I believe.

 

[PhilW]

Yeah I'm running 550's at 4 bar and want to switch to 630's at 3bar.

Got 5 injectors and 6 adaptors which I'll put up for sale soon.

 

[CupraElliott]

Will keep watching this robbie, sounds interesting.