Customer service in re-mapping.

[rolyrolyroly]

I've just re-read this and it's bigger than I intended, so for those with a short attention span, stop reading here!

I'm shopping around for a power increase upgrade on my car. I'm pretty much decided on the Custom-Code product which seems right for me, but am keeping an open mind for now as I'm not in a rush.

Developing fueling maps takes time and costs money. I know this as I've been part of a team doing this for gas turbine engines for about 20 years now. So £300 to £400 for what is apparently only a 15 minute job of reprogramming an ECU is not unreasonable, given the development that went into creating the software. What IS unreasonable, is the lack of technical data available regarding remaps.

I've asked one supplier if there were power curves available for me to look at, and if rolling road test was part of the remap process. He told me rolling road results are just for "pub talk" and a quick run up the road would show me how much quicker the car was.

What? Come on!

Either these re-maps are carefully crafted products, the result of many hours careful testing and tuning, in which case there's test results and associated technical data as part of the development process, and the re-prom costs of £300 to £400 are perfectly reasonable. Or they're the output from a bloke with a laptop bumping parameters until he gets something that works and will still pass an MOT smoke test. In which case a vague claim of 20-30% power increase would be what you'd expect and the re-prom costs of £300 to £400 are taking the piss.

Many suppliers don't seem to have a firm grasp of the reality that tuning an engine is very much a personal issue and people like choice. I'd like to be able to visit the supplier's website and pick from several existing power curves to choose from for my car. Yeah a choice, why not? One size does NOT fit all!

Then I'd like to be able to go to the supplier and be offered a rolling-road test prior to re-map. I'd then like to have the car re-mapped with the power curve of my choice (I'd expect a charge of about £200 to buy the "off the shelf" software remap, using an existing map.) and go home and use the car. If I'm completely happy with the re-map, then all well and good. But if having lived with the new map for a while and found some aspects of it I didn't like, I want to be able to discuss the issues with the supplier and go back and have a different map installed, and go home again and try the alternative map. And repeat this process until I'm completely happy with my re-map. And when I am happy, I'd probably have another rolling road test, to see what I'd got for my money.

I don't mind paying a charge every time my vehicle is programmed, a fitting fee if you like. Say £30-£40? Same with rolling road runs, say £50-£60 per run?

I'd expect a high price for a custom remap, say about £500. For that I'd expect to agree a power curve with the supplier beforehand and have the supplier create a map to meet that curve to within 5% across the range. I'd expect to have to pay a charge for subsequent changes to custom-remap after the initial "fitting", but obviously less than the initial large fee.

Is this unreasonable? I'm not asking for anything I won't pay for, but I really want to know what I'm getting and more importantly. I want to be happy with what I buy.

Does any supplier already provide this kind of service?

 

[glynnd]

Most reputable tuners offering a custom map use a rolling road to assess the effect of the map they have loaded into your ecu. Michael at jabba spent ALL DAY on mine at a cost of £475. Rolling road is more than just pub talk, they are an opportunity to carry out a full evaluation of your car's performasnce and the longevity of it. No point going up the road thinking wow this is bloody fantastic if potentially it may only last a short time. I would stay away from any tuner that said its just pub talk.
So a generic map is really fixed parameters increased to give the percentage you suggested and in most cases nothing wrong with them, I have had 3 generic maps on the two tdi's I have owned, no issues at all really.
If you want to see power curves most generic stuff will mirror original but obviously more power/torque. Its when you go hybrid etc that you get to see noticeable differences in curves, power at rpm's. I guess I am now preching to the converted as you are obviously knowledgeable.
Give jabba a call, if you have specific requirements they will try to deliver what you want, within reason!
Glynn

 

[rolyrolyroly]

Hi Glynn. I suppose my post was born of a different perspective to a lot of people who tune their cars. I've contacted a few more tuners since and have a better feel for who I do or don't want to deal with.

 

[aaronbromley]

It is always a bit suspect when a so called "tuner" turns round and says that a power curve details are just for pub talk.
Unfortunately there are a lot of cowboys calling themselves "tuners" nowadays, i myself have to vet any potential sponsors on my site to make sure i agree with what they do, i am sure SCN do the same and dont let "my mate dave from the Red Lion" who altered code on a car become a sponsor.

 

[rolyrolyroly]

It is always a bit suspect when a so called "tuner" turns round and says that a power curve details are just for pub talk.
Unfortunately there are a lot of cowboys calling themselves "tuners" nowadays, i myself have to vet any potential sponsors on my site to make sure i agree with what they do, i am sure SCN do the same and dont let "my mate dave from the Red Lion" who altered code on a car become a sponsor.

A bit suspect is a great understatement, Aaron!
My concern is ensuring that the car is better for me than it was before.
Simply giving me more power is not enough, I want as smooth a power delivery as possible. One characteristic of my car is a slightly on/off feel to the boost around the late teens/early 20s RPM which means a jerkiness to the power delivery. It's not a bit problem, but it bugs me. I'd hate to have a remap and have an unwelcome characteristic amplified into a problem.

I think the bottom line is I need a custom map to guarantee the result I want, but only require the power delivery most generic curves can deliver. Which means I have to pay more than I really want to.

I'm not in a rush, I'll keep trying to find out more before I buy.

 

[CrispDust]

Try RS tuning, he does a before, during and final R orad figures. My ecu must have been in and out of car 20 times or more for benchtop tweaking before he got the result we wanted

 

[rolyrolyroly]

Try RS tuning, he does a before, during and final R orad figures. My ecu must have been in and out of car 20 times or more for benchtop tweaking before he got the result we wanted

That sounds like the sort of thing I had in mind. Cheers.

 

[Custom-Code HQ]

Hi rolyrolyroly,

Here at Custom-Code we can offer you Phase 2 Tuning where we ask you how you would like your car to be and we also take into consideration the modifications you also have getting the most out of your vehicle.
The charge for Phase 2 software will be £386.40inc Vat, if you are not totally happy with the car after we can re-tune at a labour cost of £50+vat PH.

Please read here for further information.

http://www.custom-code.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=46

Regards

Custom-Code Team

 

[rolyrolyroly]

Hi rolyrolyroly,

Here at Custom-Code we can offer you Phase 2 Tuning where we ask you how you would like your car to be and we also take into consideration the modifications you also have getting the most out of your vehicle.
The charge for Phase 2 software will be £386.40inc Vat, if you are not totally happy with the car after we can re-tune at a labour cost of £50+vat PH.

Please read here for further information.

Regards

Custom-Code Team

Thanks for the reply guys.
Actually I have looked at your website and the CC remap is on my shortlist. (It may interest you to know that it was a local CC dealer who told me that power curves are just for pub talk!) Obviously I won't be using that dealer, but it does highlight the difference between suppliers that creating their own fueling maps and those that simply sell someone elses. Actually, the phase 2 software and re-tune service would seem to be pretty much exactly what I want. Thanks.

 

[SteveC123]

Then I'd like to be able to go to the supplier and be offered a rolling-road test prior to re-map. I'd then like to have the car re-mapped with the power curve of my choice (I'd expect a charge of about £200 to buy the "off the shelf" software remap, using an existing map.) and go home and use the car. If I'm completely happy with the re-map, then all well and good. But if having lived with the new map for a while and found some aspects of it I didn't like, I want to be able to discuss the issues with the supplier and go back and have a different map installed, and go home again and try the alternative map. And repeat this process until I'm completely happy with my re-map. And when I am happy, I'd probably have another rolling road test, to see what I'd got for my money.

So how many maps do you expect the average retailer to have just sitting on the shelf for your particular car, then?

Most people want the best of both worlds... more economy and more power.

Most people get something along those lines with a decent bespoke map developed for their car by someone who knows what they are doing, or at least TDI wise that seems to be the case.

FWIW, the place that does mine rolling roads the car before any mapping is done, and then runs the car up again on the rolling road as and when they tweak the map.

Once they've got the map right, you get a dyno printout of with the before and after mapping curves on it, so you can see exactly where your extra poke is coming from.

 

[rolyrolyroly]

So how many maps do you expect the average retailer to have just sitting on the shelf for your particular car, then?

THAT, is a very good point. However I would suggest there's not a huge amount of difference between curves for a type of engine. (Certainly when I approached a tuner asking for a power curve for my Ibiza, he supplied a curve for a Leon and told me it was essentially the same curve.) So once you have a curve for a 150PD engine, I suspect you've done 95% of the work for all VAG vehicles with that engine. I might be wrong and welcome correction on that assumption. So having several curves for one particular vehicle might not be the herculean task your question suggests. Also, it might be good business too. Why sell one curve when you can sell two? "Here a motorway economy curve, here's a perfromance curve. Switch between the two as you need."

It seems to me there are two extremes with tuning. There's the generic map, which I personally think is generally over-priced. Then there is the custom-tune, which whilst more expensive, actually represents reasonable value for money.

As for economy and power, I'm really not convinced by the whole more economy & more power arguement. I know there's an awful lot of anecdotal evidence about on this, but I haven't seen any convincing data to back it up so my natural scepticism of "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!" still sways my mind here. I might be wrong, and would be happy to see the data to prove me scepticism wrong.

 

[SteveC123]

THAT, is a very good point. However I would suggest there's not a huge amount of difference between curves for a type of engine..

One size most certainly does not fit all in this respect.

Firstly as an example, my Passat was a B5.5 TDI Sport 130.

I assumed therefore we could have uploaded the map developed for that onto a friends B5.5 Passat TDI Highline 130.

We couldn't... because the Sport had the AVF engine, and the Highline had the AWX engine, and according to the mate who is the wizard as it were when it comes to us all pestering him to map our cars, one of the key differences between the two would almost certainly be the ECU.

I've now got an Ibiza TDI 130... that has the ASZ engine, so again a map will need to be developed (hopefully this evening actually), specifically for that.

My other friend has a Fabia vRS which also has the ASZ engine, so yes, given both cars are otherwise unmodded engine wise, in this instance we can get away with using the same map on both cars... but having said that it'll be interesting to see the power curves of both before any mapping is done.

However... had my friend had other mods done to his car, then it would be prudent to do a map tweaked specifically to match these mods in order to get the best out of the car, and to ensure the map doesn't end up causing more problems than it solves.

(Certainly when I approached a tuner asking for a power curve for my Ibiza, he supplied a curve for a Leon and told me it was essentially the same curve. So once you have a curve for a 150PD engine, I suspect you've done 95% of the work for all VAG vehicles with that engine. I might be wrong and welcome correction on that assumption.

Like I've said above, not necessarily.

Or to put it another way, the friend who does the mapping is a lazy so and so at the best of times, so I can't see why he'd be developing a new map for my friends Highline Passat if the one from my Sport would upload and work. ;-)

So having several curves for one particular vehicle might not be the herculean task your question suggests. Also, it might be good business too. Why sell one curve when you can sell two? "Here a motorway economy curve, here's a perfromance curve. Switch between the two as you need."

I see what you are saying, and I believe there are (or at least there were), systems out there you could buy which allow you to have more than one map stored on a PDA, and which you can then select.

But if the mapping done to my Passat was anything to go by, as in I used to get 60mpg on a Sunday afternoon bimble, yet had an extra 45bhp and huge slab of torque spread over a much smoother power curve to use for traffic light grand prix sessions etc, then I really don't understand why anyone would need anything else other than that, and this is the sort of thing I'm hoping we can get out of the Ibiza.

It seems to me there are two extremes with tuning. There's the generic map, which I personally think is generally over-priced. Then there is the custom-tune, which whilst more expensive, actually represents reasonable value for money.

The generic map is fine if you have a standard car.

A custom map is a must really if you're the sort who is looking to achieve the absolute best from your car... and will have almost certainly have uprated other components as well, ergo a custom map will cater better for a car along these lines, as it will take into account the other enhancements you've done to the car... that is, if done by someone who knows what they're doing.

As for the pricing... the kit used by my friend when mapping to upload the maps etc, was over £7k.

If he's working with an ECU they've not worked with before, they also then have to buy an unlocking file for it off the manufacturer of the mapping kit they use as well.

I agree generic maps are overpriced by many, but no-one is forcing you to buy one and you can't just plug a car into a cheapo copy of VAG-COM to upload it either.

As for economy and power, I'm really not convinced by the whole more economy & more power arguement. I know there's an awful lot of anecdotal evidence about on this, but I haven't seen any convincing data to back it up so my natural scepticism of "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!" still sways my mind here. I might be wrong, and would be happy to see the data to prove me scepticism wrong.

See my experiences above.

I was very happy with the results got from my Passat.

I just we can achieve the same with the Ibiza, but then the lower weight should help with that. ;-)