Very bad starting on 110 TDi

[Tournifreak]

I've asked this question last year some time and thought it was time for an update.

'99 Toledo 100K miles. 110BHP TDi

When you try to start from cold, the engine *eventually* starts, but takes maybe 15-20 seconds. Was much worse last winter - had to charge the battery every night to ensure there was enough oompf in the morning

Lots & lots of white smoke when it does start, and runs like a dream once it's going. Starts perfectly from warm.

It's been to local garage who did the following:
Replaced fuel filter, fuel filter T-piece, all fuel lines from tank to engine, glow plugs, MAF sensor (I think)

Seat dealer (Bury St Edmunds) - didn't have much of a clue TBH - avoid
Replaced fuel filter (again ) fuel filter T-piece (again )
Checked error codes - none
Checked timing - all OK

I have replaced the "Temperature Sender" (green 4-pin thing on RHS of block)

It seems to be starting worse than ever now. Any ideas?

Jon.

 

[cheshire cat]

I would start with your cranking voltage

 

[Sooty torques]

What about the MAF contacts? See the thread "Silicon Dielectric Grease" or some such, there's mention on there about poor contacts causing starting problems. A long shot I guess, but worth the read?

 

[Tournifreak]

I would start with your cranking voltage

Don't think it's that - engine turns over quite nicely.

And there's power to the glow plugs (when there should be)

Jon.

 

[Tournifreak]

What about the MAF contacts? See the thread "Silicon Dielectric Grease" or some such, there's mention on there about poor contacts causing starting problems. A long shot I guess, but worth the read?

Will try this tonight. I've got some silicon grease & switch contact cleaner at home.

Off to check my relay 109 now. Seems some of the old ones can cause this sort of problem.

Jon.

 

[sssstew]

the MAF wouldnt effect it, as it will still start ok with it unplugged.

the relay 109 is the main power relay in older generation non PDs, if yours is grey i needs changing i think thats the way round. but after late 98 they didnt use the dodgy ones anymore. the old ones used to overheat and fail. I dont think this can be the issue as its cranking ok.....

But i would agree with cheshire, test with a new battery.

 

[Tournifreak]

the MAF wouldnt effect it, as it will still start ok with it unplugged.

the relay 109 is the main power relay in older generation non PDs, if yours is grey i needs changing i think thats the way round. but after late 98 they didnt use the dodgy ones anymore. the old ones used to overheat and fail. I dont think this can be the issue as its cranking ok.....

But i would agree with cheshire, test with a new battery.

sssstew,
I just pulled the 109 relay out. It's grey, and I'm sure grey is the newer type. Still, some bods on the tdiforum seem to think the grey ones are still a bit ropey.

Just called Seat dealer - £11.21 for a new one, so it's got to be worth a try.

Thanks for the tip on the MAF.

I'm sure it's not the battery though - it has had a brand new battery because the starting problem wrecked the old one. Now the new one is getting a bit rough too. I guess 20sec + of turning twice a day kills batteries! :-(

I'll report back on the relay, although I reckon it's an outside chance.

Jon.

 

[glynnd]

Ok there is power to the glow plugs but are they tired now at 100k.?

 

[Tournifreak]

Ok there is power to the glow plugs but are they tired now at 100k.?

Will check with the garage, but I'm pretty sure they were all changed about 6 months ago - one of the 1st things we tried.

Jon.

 

[cheshire cat]

no big deal to stick a voltmeter across the battery whilst starting

 

[sssstew]

very unlikely to be glow plugs, the direct injection diesels dont need them to start unless its very cold.

 

[schoma1]

hi my 01, 110 toledo is the same i have changed the, ecu,maf , injectors,temp sensor,glow plugs ,filter housing,109 relay,had the fuel pump settup . this made no differance. i just live it.

 

[Tournifreak]

hi my 01, 110 toledo is the same i have changed the, ecu,maf , injectors,temp sensor,glow plugs ,filter housing,109 relay,had the fuel pump settup . this made no differance. i just live it.

Wow - that's a lot of £££££ - but I guess you don't need reminding of that!

If the 109 relay doesn't do it, I may just have to live with it too. Seems a shame - in every other way, I LOVE this car.

Jon

 

[schoma1]

i was lucky tournifreak when i bought mine i took out a extended waranty they paid for the lot

 

[Tournifreak]

sssstew,
I just pulled the 109 relay out. It's grey, and I'm sure grey is the newer type. Still, some bods on the tdiforum seem to think the grey ones are still a bit ropey.

Just called Seat dealer - £11.21 for a new one, so it's got to be worth a try.

Thanks for the tip on the MAF.

I'm sure it's not the battery though - it has had a brand new battery because the starting problem wrecked the old one. Now the new one is getting a bit rough too. I guess 20sec + of turning twice a day kills batteries! :-(

I'll report back on the relay, although I reckon it's an outside chance.

Jon.

Just tried the new relay this morning. Seemed to start better than average, perhaps 5-8 seconds of cranking. I'll report back in a few days when I've tried a few more cold starts. I took a good look at the old one with the cover off - looks fine to me - no burns or anything.

Anyway, I should get my VAG-COM lead soon, so maybe som other clue will turn up.

Jon.

 

[SEAT leon 007]

I had the same problem and if you have had the timing belt changed its has to be the fuel pump timer, think bacj before the problem happened did you have the timing belt changed if so its diffo the fuel pump timing, all it need is to be adjusted which tkes about 10 mins so more fuel is pumped, to tick the engine over. Mine had that problem in the mornmings but once the engine was warm its was smooth through the day, then experienced the same problem the next day only in the mornings thou, so get that checked.

 

[sssstew]

you can check your pump timing with VAG COM too.

 

[Tournifreak]

I had the same problem and if you have had the timing belt changed its has to be the fuel pump timer, think bacj before the problem happened did you have the timing belt changed if so its diffo the fuel pump timing, all it need is to be adjusted which tkes about 10 mins so more fuel is pumped, to tick the engine over. Mine had that problem in the mornmings but once the engine was warm its was smooth through the day, then experienced the same problem the next day only in the mornings thou, so get that checked.

Started badly this morning - so replay 109 didn't help!

Thanks for this tip re: fuel pump timing though. It sounds very possible. I only noticed the problem straight after the cambelt was changed. The (independant) garage insisted they'd lined it all up OK though. And since the engine ran great (once it was started) I believed them.

Does anyone know if this would show up through VAG-COM? My local Seat dealer in Bury St Edmunds ran a bunch of checks and couldn't find anything wrong from the diagnostics.

Who should I get to check this out? A different Seat dealer?

Thanks for the help!!!!

Jon.

 

[volkscraft]

I have had this problem a thousand times! (Sorry just read post) Its the Dynamic pump timing (AKA Commencement of injection), which really needs to either be set with VAG com or a DTI. (dial test indicator) The adjustment is so fine you wouldnt even see it move. And its crucial when the engine is cold.

I would offer to do it for you but im a bit far away.... Try your local bosch specialist...

Fuel Electrics
Hawke Road
IPSWICH
Suffolk
IP3 0JF
Phone 01473 251800

They should know all about this fault... Ive never used them personally but my local bosch people are rebuilding pumps and injectors for me to a great standard.

 

[Tournifreak]

I have had this problem a thousand times! (Sorry just read post) Its the Dynamic pump timing (AKA Commencement of injection), which really needs to either be set with VAG com or a DTI. (dial test indicator) The adjustment is so fine you wouldnt even see it move. And its crucial when the engine is cold.

I would offer to do it for you but im a bit far away.... Try your local bosch specialist...

Fuel Electrics
Hawke Road
IPSWICH
Suffolk
IP3 0JF
Phone 01473 251800

They should know all about this fault... Ive never used them personally but my local bosch people are rebuilding pumps and injectors for me to a great standard.

Thanks!!!!!! It looks like at last I have a path forward!
I shall call them now!

Jon.