Suspension Query

[GTTIM]

I have a 04 Toledo 1.8T. Can i improve the cars (really quite awful) handling without lowering it (or if so not by much)? I have just fitted new Goodyear F1 GSD3s all round (grip improved - understeer now even worse, although im hoping it will change after a few miles on em. Currently feels very heavy footed). I dont want the car lowered as that always looks crap on std alloys, basically i just want a better suspension. The main points I would like to address are: the cars horrendous understeer and also the weird suspension combination that leads to both a feeling of it being quite stiff but sometimes wallowy - sometimes it gets distinctly caught out.

If i could get this sorted i might eventually consider some kind of a remap - but mostly with a view to eliminating the somewhat uneven power delivery i currently get (plus better performance in 3/4 perhaps)

 

[Saul]

koni fsd dampers will work with your standard springs (so you keep the height the same) very good reviews by all

id also do the dog bone mount as this will stop the engine rocking back and forth giving you copious amounts of wheel hop (bad wheelspin)

 

[Deleted member 5241]

First, probably daft, question; Are the tyre pressures OK?? Sounds like they could be a bit low to be honest. After that, the world is your oyster and your credit card is a dangerous thing that lurks in your wallet.

IIRC the GSD's are directional, another daft question; are the direction arrows pointing in the correct direction or have they been put on wrong? It happens and its a cheap and free check before lashing out any cash.

Next thing to try is having the tracking checked, another cheapish fix that will help prolong tyre life, lots of places normally do this for free and only charge if it needs adjustment.

The wallowy bit sounds like a duff damper to me, but on an '04 model, unless its done high miles, that shouldn't really be an issue.

Awesome would be a good place to start - Eibach + Koni FSD's for a start. Eibach won't drop it too much over std, just a few mm IIRC.

Std springs should be OK and getting the Konis mentioned above or Sachs/Boge or Bilsteins instead though.

HTH

 

[GTTIM]

I was thinking the tyre pressures might be a bit low, havent had a chance to check yet though. I think the tracking is OK as my tyre wear wasnt uneven (will probably get it checked though) To be honest the handling has always been less than stellar since i bought it almost 2 years ago (mileage low at 25k currently). Thanks for the recommedation on the Koni dampers - is that the weak spot on the std suspension then? And are they easily fitted by a decent garage?

 

[GrayT]

Tyre pressure makes a HUGE difference in the V5. One of my front alloys was corroded leaking air slowly (since replaced). The difference between even 25 and 33 psi is remarkable. With the heavy V5 lump I find 33 about right. It will never handle as well as some other sports saloons and I can't vouch personally for the suspension mods, although I have considered getting front upper and lower strut braces (still undecided). Personally I found the upgrade to GSD3's were a vast improvement over my previous tyres. Sad to say though, the Tolly is not renowned for coping with twisties.

 

[GTTIM]

25 to 33 psi! Bloody ell thats a big difference in my books. Ive always been sensitive to tyre pressures, can tell when one is out by just 1-2 psi. I think when they were fitted the other day the guy probably didnt inflate them quite enough. Beyond that ill look at how much the dampers will cost once ive paid for the service and MOT! Funnily enough though 33 psi is what ive usually had my previous tyres at.

 

[Deleted member 5241]

Another thing that might cause the understeer is if there is any oil and gunk left on/in the tyre treads from the mouldign process, especially if they have only been on a very short time. 500 miles and they should be ok though.

 

[DPJ]

Also consider a good rear anti-roll bar.

 

[GTTIM]

Would a rear ARB be better than a front one for understeer problems then?

 

[DPJ]

IMO the standard front (if it's the same as a Leon) is quite good (unless its mountings / bushes have gone).

 

[GTTIM]

Cheers, thats interesting to know. Doubtful much of the suspension would be worn badly as its only covered 25k miles. It is the worst understeering car ive had though. My previous car was a Nissan primera egt and that was fantastic by comparison. However money is tight (hopefully it will pass its first MOT tomorrow without major costs) so i would definitely be looking for the best result for the cash.

 

[Deleted member 5241]

If its cheap you're after check the pressures cold, set them if required and try that. After that, try upping/lowering pressures fron/rear but only go up/down 1 - 2 psi at a time and do fronts or rears NOT both. You might be able to tune out the understeer to some degree by making the rear end/front end behave differently. Interesting one this, let us know what the outcome is.

BTW Primera GT is a great handling car straight out of the box but depreciate faster than a Toledo. I looked at prices a few weeks ago and there are some cracking motors for sale at less than £2K - GT's and Sport+.

 

[GTTIM]

If its cheap you're after check the pressures cold, set them if required and try that. After that, try upping/lowering pressures fron/rear but only go up/down 1 - 2 psi at a time and do fronts or rears NOT both. You might be able to tune out the understeer to some degree by making the rear end/front end behave differently. Interesting one this, let us know what the outcome is.

BTW Primera GT is a great handling car straight out of the box but depreciate faster than a Toledo. I looked at prices a few weeks ago and there are some cracking motors for sale at less than £2K - GT's and Sport+.

Yep Ive generally found that an extra 1 psi (or less even if you can achieve it) in the fronts helps dial out a bit of the understeer. I will be checking them this evening and probably doing just that.

The old primera egt is even better than the replacement GT. Truly great car and can be picked up for less than a grand and would make a pretty decent track day car. Hard to imagine anything depreciating faster than my toledo - except perhaps a large stone with some lead wrapped round it.

Interestingly the Primera egt handbook specced front pressure 3 psi higher than the rear.

 

[Deleted member 5241]

My TDi Toledo specifies 28 all round but I tend to stick 30 up front and 29 in the back, it seems to improve the feel.

Is the front end making a noise at all, or does the back end feel like its steering itself on a long straight (Motorway)? Could be the bushes as mentioned above. I've had; the rear trailing arms, the front wishbones and front Anti Rollbar bushes done on mine.

My wifes Golf has 36 up front an 30 at the back IIRC, I tend to put 34 up front and 28 at the back using experience from my Pug 306 GTi6 I had. That was too skittish on the road at the book pressures but seemed to tramline and twitch less with 2psi under all round. It does sound like the Toledo (Golf, Octavia, Bora, Leon also?) may be a bit sensitive to tyre pressures

I remember the old eGT, bit of a good package that but I never liked the interior. I quite like the look of the Mk2 Primera, again didn't like the interior (seat fabric) but is better with leather.

 

[GTTIM]

Doesnt feel 100% rock solid at err - motorway speeds. But not too bad.

Actually, I do have a noise at the front though, but only when turning. Sometimes when turning at v low speed and with quite a bit of full lock, a funny noise can be heard. Does this mostly turning to the left. Noise is hard to describe, like a long low moan. (i dont know how else to describe it as it isnt a grinding or rasping or knocking and doesnt sound like a CV boot)

 

[DPJ]

Doesnt feel 100% rock solid at err - motorway speeds. But not too bad.

Actually, I do have a noise at the front though, but only when turning. Sometimes when turning at v low speed and with quite a bit of full lock, a funny noise can be heard. Does this mostly turning to the left. Noise is hard to describe, like a long low moan. (i dont know how else to describe it as it isnt a grinding or rasping or knocking and doesnt sound like a CV boot)

Wishbone bushes or ARB bushes?

 

[Deleted member 5241]

I was going to say power steering pump as you're on full lock. Its like reading a medical book coming on here, you start off feeling quite well and before you know it you've convinced yourself you've got weeks to live

The Power Steering can moan under full lock conditions, a bush normally makes itself known by knocking on gentle turns or over bumps.

 

[vee5]

In terms of cost benefit ratio I'd def. experiment with the tyre pressures, preferably starting with whats recommended in the manual for your model and probably then increasing from there. If you go up 3 or 4 PSI at one end at a time the results should be clear and its then a process of fine tuning. I've settled on 33F/32R for me on the roads I use but then I've got the heavy v5 lump.
The F1s are very good road tyres so you're probably experiencing more understeer because the increased grip they generate is exposing the rather unsporty suspension/geometry of the Tolly. Better shocks should provide a big improvement in handling - you pays your money...
As an ex eGT (mkII with full leather) owner cant agree more with the comments already made, and I dont think the Tolly will ever handle as well as that. Not surprising really as the eGT was a Europe specific version developed at the Ring....