ATP hi-flow manifold vs. standard manifold

[Koomorph]

I've been considering whether the high flow manifold from ATP would be a worthwhile buy along with the GTRS eliminator - not from the perspective of cost - but 2 other reasons BOOST and RELIABILITY.

I'm considering doing the GTRS coversion using the OEM VAG manifold - basically becasue I assume that with the thinner runners, I would get less lag when compared to the hi-flow one. I understand that my end power figure would be compromised, but was wondering whether:

a) the standard manifold is as bad in terms of reliability (cracks etc..) as ATP claim? Would the GTRS be too much for it? Any opinion on this welcome....

b) the standard manifld would reduce lag?

c) the standard manifold would be still good for 300 brake?

My main concern here is lag - having seen some GTRS graphs showing the boost coming in mid rev range, I'm not sure I could live with 3Krpm+.... And if the hi-flow makes it worse...... then I'd really have to reconsider this option....
But I don't want to do the eliminator, only to find that the standard manifold can't take it and begins to fail...... or that it restricts top end majorly below 300 brake....

Thanks chaps
Raf

 

[m0rk]

a) yes, many crack as OE gets hot too (but maybe not as many)

b) not, it'll be **** slot, and a massive restriciton

c) not a chance

if you can't live with boost coming on (strong) at 3000rpm, stick with k0x units

 

[Koomorph]

Righto -

a) What do you mean "(not as many)"

b) "not, it'll be **** slot"?? What do you mean? Why would it be a massive restriction at the bottom end of the rev range when you're not pumping as much gas through it?

Mark, so your recommendation would be to get the high flow manifold at the same time - if going the GTRS route.....

Cheers
Raf

 

[m0rk]

yeah, if you go BT, you cannot use the original manifold (well you could.... but it'll be really restrictive)

More ATP ones crack as a percentage (but they're all on modded cars getting ragged I'll wager)

 

[DPJ]

Larger internal volume of ATP = lower pressure = lower heat...........

 

[cordobabrendy]

the ko3x only really comes on from 2500 so another 500 later for longer would actually be just as driveable.

 

[Koomorph]

Mark - surely it's made for strength and relaibility when running a bigger turbo - doesn't fill me with any confidence if so many crack - even when used on applications where the car is modified... that's the whole point isn't it....better manifold for bigger turbo.... !

My Ko3s starts coming on strong at 2K and by 3K it's at full pelt - so if this starts coming on at 3K and not fully spooled until 4K plus.... that's quite a difference. I say this as I've recently been watching the way I drive... where I plant my right foot, where I cruise etc.... I'm thinking I may not enjoy it if get a load of "wait, wait wait wait... woooooooohoooooooooooo!" On second thoughts..... ;o)

Raf

 

[ibizacupra]

Larger internal volume of ATP = lower pressure = lower heat...........

unless bottled up in a small exhaust housing on k0x turbo

 

[DPJ]

unless bottled up in a small exhaust housing on k0x turbo

Yes of course, but is the std mani more restrictive than the KO exhaust housing? (I think so).

 

[ibizacupra]

Mark - surely it's made for strength and relaibility when running a bigger turbo - doesn't fill me with any confidence if so many crack - even when used on applications where the car is modified... that's the whole point isn't it....better manifold for bigger turbo.... !

My Ko3s starts coming on strong at 2K and by 3K it's at full pelt - so if this starts coming on at 3K and not fully spooled until 4K plus.... that's quite a difference. I say this as I've recently been watching the way I drive... where I plant my right foot, where I cruise etc.... I'm thinking I may not enjoy it if get a load of "wait, wait wait wait... woooooooohoooooooooooo!" On second thoughts..... ;o)

Raf

sounds kinda like a diesel would suit you (sir)

low end power delivery is ok, but can also be abrupt...
the delay on the eliminators in power delivery vs their out and out power level does so far seem dissapointing.... Waiting a while for just over 300bhp. This is only 1/2 the story as transient spool (on-off-on throttle response) is the more significant on the road. On a dyno plant ya foot and it spools up to max boost and delivers power.. real world you are on and off the gas so transient is more important. You dont ever see this on a dyno to know how its likely to "feel"

Driven a few powerful garrett and IHI and other turbo'd cars, and the headline figures are all wel and good. One example of a well tweeked GT28 based turbo vs my at the time VF34 made it all to apparent. The garrett based car had 80bhp more, but transient boost was extremely laggy compared to my "lesser" powered VF34. I would bet mine would out accelerate it in real world on on track out of the corners tho.

The bad news I suspect is the 4K onwards power delivery of the eliminator is probably also poor transient also, relative to other models. Its only attribute as I see it is its apparent price and favourable $$ rate at the moment, and its lack of competition in the "bolt on" dept. It falls short of a BT tho, and has some compromises for its extra power delivered.

ATP's manifold's are not know for their quality, and their kits will always need "fettling" to make fit properly.

It will be a surprise for some but my old MK4 golf when 1st IHI'd was actually on a std manifold, ported, and running an adaptor plate to mount the IHI onto. That went like stink! Get the dremmel out... lol

 

[ibizacupra]

Yes of course, but is the std mani more restrictive than the KO exhaust housing? (I think so).

when you look at them 4 x exhaust manifold ports vs k0x intake.... its pretty even.

has anyone done just a manifold change and logged before and after?

 

[cordobabrendy]

bill, any pics of the mount the vf sat on? would you say it would be worth trying before buying a more expensive fab'ed manifold?

 

[m0rk]

martyn did some pretty extensive logging I think..

 

[ibizacupra]

did marts post it up anywhere?
be interesting to see.. was on k03s was'nt it?

 

[ibizacupra]

bill, any pics of the mount the vf sat on? would you say it would be worth trying before buying a more expensive fab'ed manifold?

no pics from that no.
if you stand a JS mani next to a stock one, they look remarkably similar in origin. Fatten up an stock one (which the downside its then a complete 'mare to fit) and you have a similar looking unit. Bore sizes being larger and round of course for the extra flow. Fatten up a stock one and its an ATP one, and equally a pig to fit. no pain no gain i spose.

 

[m0rk]

Yup, it was k03s, I'll have a search to see what I can find

 

[Koomorph]

Thanks for the good input Bill - transient spool is somethign I hadn't considered on this.... and so the outlook only seems to get worse... as you say, if it wasn't for the relatively low cost invovled.......

Do you think I would be better off spending the £200+ instead of the ATP manifold - on a port job on the standard one? Surely that would make it even weaker if I were to go GTRS? And then a ported one would struggle to delivier over 300 brake? (No?) But it would be less laggy surely....?

If you had to go GTRS route - would you go ATP manifold or ported OEM ? (not including the option of a custom fabbed one... )

Raf

PS - I love tractors....

 

[DPJ]

Thanks for the good input Bill - transient spool is somethign I hadn't considered on this.... and so the outlook only seems to get worse... as you say, if it wasn't for the relatively low cost invovled.......

Do you think I would be better off spending the £200+ instead of the ATP manifold - on a port job on the standard one? Surely that would make it even weaker if I were to go GTRS? And then a ported one would struggle to delivier over 300 brake? (No?) But it would be less laggy surely....?

If you had to go GTRS route - would you go ATP manifold or ported OEM ? (not including the option of a custom fabbed one... )

Raf

PS - I love tractors....

No way you could port a standard manifold. Too little meat on the walls.

 

[ibizacupra]

Thanks for the good input Bill - transient spool is somethign I hadn't considered on this.... and so the outlook only seems to get worse... as you say, if it wasn't for the relatively low cost invovled.......

Do you think I would be better off spending the £200+ instead of the ATP manifold - on a port job on the standard one? Surely that would make it even weaker if I were to go GTRS? And then a ported one would struggle to delivier over 300 brake? (No?) But it would be less laggy surely....?

If you had to go GTRS route - would you go ATP manifold or ported OEM ? (not including the option of a custom fabbed one... )

Raf

PS - I love tractors....

its a difficult call to be honest.
tempting for the bang for buck side of things, but those coming from a pokey k03s motor with good strong willing urge may not like the extra wait for the extra power when it comes. It will be more, and tailoring driving style to suit will accomodate it I would have thought. Being lazy and just riding the wave of k03s type torque however in gear wont be the same when waiting for 4K to wind on the clock. Search for a gear down plant it and hang on for it to power in hard...
The only way is to find someone with one and try it out. not that, thats easy.

hogging out a stock mani has got to weaken it for sure. ATP's are reportedly cracking tho in not that long a service either. Its not that ATP's are exclusively cracking cos every cast mani I have seen & used can crack, and or warp.

£200 notes is cheap for a mani... so its got to be tempting... just not a job you would want to do twice if fitting yourself.

 

[ibizacupra]

No way you could port a standard manifold. Too little meat on the walls.

now maybe its not its size which is its problem.... and the oversize nature of the ATP mani is in fact contributing to the lag experienced. Eliminators spools slower then their GT based cousins. Why is that?