Torque figures- Leon FR TDi

[commanche777]

Hi

I currently own a MkV Golf gti, but due to a new job opportunity, and more miles to and from work, I need to change to something more economical. I am considering the Leon FRTDi. I was under the impression that it had the same engine as appears in the A3 and the Golf GT Sport, however just looking at the SEAT website, it quotes a torque figure of just 221lb compared to 268 lb on the Golf and A3 engines. Is this a mistake on the SEAT website? All the magazine reviews I've read say its the same engine so I'm a little confused.

Any help greatly appreciated

Cheers

 

[NickP]

In the Seat Brochure I have it's listed as 258ft/lb or 350nm

 

[commanche777]

Thats why I'm wondering if its a mistake on the website or possible they've changed the spec for MY08? Although I dont know why they would reduce the figures....

 

[pr0ton]

it's 350Nm like said above.

 

[craigomills]

Seat can't be seen to be as good as the VW/Audi part of the VAG group. Its just politics. They are the same engine.

 

[jonnyash]

had mine on the dyno standard before it was mapped and it was 182 bhp and 357nm torque

 

[Moley RUFC]

Hows the remap going jonny?

 

[jonnyash]

alls well (touch wood) gonna have a trip up to superchips soon to put it back on the rolling road! since this new map has been put on its a lot better

 

[markfranklin]

The conversation about torque here has prompted me to ask a technical question (please excuse my ignorance here!):

The torque figure of 350Nm for this engine is often referred to as being very high, and I've seen in some press report that it is more than both a 3.5 litre petrol Mercedes and a Porsche Boxster.

I know that torque is 'pulling power' as opposed to outright grunt, but how does this actually relate if you were let's say having a race?

Suppose we have our Mercedes 350 going against the Leon FR TDI.

The Merc has a lot more power (bhp) but the FR has a lot more torque (lb/ft). Which would actually be faster? And if the Merc gets to 60mph before the FR, under what conditions would be Leon be able to outperform the Merc? Surely the torque numbers must come into play somehow!

Would be really grateful if someone could enlighten me.

Cheers

 

[chrisboyle999]

compare 0-60 times on a steep hill or pulling a caravan!

 

[Moley RUFC]

Ask Gizmondo, he has beaten every car made with his yellow beefa

 

[BanziBarn]

The conversation about torque here has prompted me to ask a technical question (please excuse my ignorance here!):

The torque figure of 350Nm for this engine is often referred to as being very high, and I've seen in some press report that it is more than both a 3.5 litre petrol Mercedes and a Porsche Boxster.

I know that torque is 'pulling power' as opposed to outright grunt, but how does this actually relate if you were let's say having a race?

Suppose we have our Mercedes 350 going against the Leon FR TDI.

The Merc has a lot more power (bhp) but the FR has a lot more torque (lb/ft). Which would actually be faster? And if the Merc gets to 60mph before the FR, under what conditions would be Leon be able to outperform the Merc? Surely the torque numbers must come into play somehow!

Would be really grateful if someone could enlighten me.

Cheers

Basically it's down to power to weight.

Power is a combination of torque and revs. The Leon has a lot of torque but is limited by how much it can multiply this up into power.

My civic has 140 ft/lbs or torque but can rev to 8200rpm. These two things together equal 197 bhp.

My Leon has FAR more torque but runs out of revs at 4500rpm thus only managing 170 bhp

So, even though the leon feels much quicker in gear than the civic between 2k and 4k revs, if you put both on the starting line and were allowed to use all the revs and make the most of the gears the civic would win a sprint.

So for out and out performance look at power, not torque.

That's my understanding anyway.

 

[S8N]

But in the real world driving (just normal day to day instead of track days and such) the derv torque wins. Short acceleration bursts on slip roads, overtaking dwadlers and such. If I could I would have a petrol but I wouldn't use the power enough, so the derv wins

 

[markfranklin]

Great replies, thanks BanziBarn and others, all very interesting stuff. One day I might like to drive an FR TFSI and see myself how different it feels.

Cheers

 

[jonnyash]

torque is the only factor in acceleration ! the ratios in the gears multiply that torque and determine how fast that acceleration is ,there was an article expaining in more depth fully how it works but dont be fooled into thinking just because something revs twice as much its gonna be twice as fast

 

[BanziBarn]

torque is the only factor in acceleration ! the ratios in the gears multiply that torque and determine how fast that acceleration is ,there was an article expaining in more depth fully how it works but dont be fooled into thinking just because something revs twice as much its gonna be twice as fast

Agreed - but I think this is torque at the wheels - so, in my civic, even though the engine torque is low, the gearing means that there is more torque at the actual wheels hence making it accelerate faster than the leon.

But in real world driving the Leon is easier (less changes needed ect) to drive quickly.

A lot of people mention how good diesels are at over taking, and indeed they are very flexable, but my civic would still be quicker, albeit with manic gear changes and a screaming engine!!

 

[jonnyash]

maybe to 60 mph but after that would be a lot closer than you think! the other halfs dad has got a civic type r and a wrx subaru had a play with him along a mile straight from island to island and he couldnt pull away in the subaru after the initial 100 yds

 

[BanziBarn]

I'd imagine the scoob has far more torque than the civic but yet couldn't pull - so thats my point really, the torque isn't the main issue, its the power to weight. I think both the WRX and Type-r have similar power to weight ratios.

 

[siwel]

Hi All,

There seems to be a bit of confusion about bhp, torque and is it a power etc. Sadly torque is not multiplied by gears (it'd be great if it was) nor is there any difference between the torque at the engine and at the wheels (that'd be bhp).

Torque is a force that is doing mechnical work, your engine produces different torque measurements though out its rev range, but at a certain revs the torque is constant and is the same at the wheels, the crank etc. Of course it's obvious there is a difference somewhere as there is more to turn in 4WD systems relative to 2WD, and that difference is quantified with the power, brake horse power normally is used in the uk for cars. So the bhp at the flywheel is different to the bhp at the wheels.

As some of you mentioned it's not as clear cut as just the bhp or torque figures the car has to measure acceleration, lots of factors come into the equations. The area under the power curve + torque curve across the rev ranges (no point having a car that boost up at 6k drops off at 6.8k and has nothing before), the weight of the car, the losses in the transmission, the gear ratios to allow you to use your rev range, the traction (RWD, 4WD, 2WD), etc etc.

Best way to find out go out on a track and have fun

 

[BanziBarn]

Complicated subject!

But am I right in saying that ultimatly it's power to weight and gearing that determines performance.. not torque?

For example - if you took two cars with 200bhp, but one produced twice as much torque as the other both would have the same performance? Although for this to be case the one with less torque would most probably have a high reving engine and very short gears?