rear alignment issues

[Artmasterx]

Hi, I recently bought this car and it had chewed up a set of rear tires so I went for an alignment and new tires. The alignment shop said it was way out of spec in the back, which cannot be fixed (because its a fixed beam/axle).

The alignment geometry is below (sorry, in Dutch). They didn't bother to fix the front because the back was so bad.

Any ideas of what may fix this, other than the rear beam/axle? Could worn bushing cause this much deviation, or a stub axle (not really sure what that is) problem?

Notice the bad tracking/toe and camber on the rear left wheel. Any ideas? Since the right is not too bad and the left is bad, could that mean only a problem in the left rear hub area?

wielvlucht = camber
sporing = tracking/toe
askanteling = caster
voor = front
achter = rear
links = left
rechts = right
actueel = before
vooraf = after (they didn't really make any adjustment, so this is not relevant)
specs is abvious

Thanks... this sucks.

 

[wayne lcr]

if the rear bushes as gone can cause tyre were the rear axle can only be fitted in 1 way so whats the history of the car it could have had a arse end shunt to knock the beam out.

 

[Artmasterx]

if the rear bushes as gone can cause tyre were the rear axle can only be fitted in 1 way so whats the history of the car it could have had a arse end shunt to knock the beam out.

No history of an accident as far as I can tell. The guy who did the alignment looked under the chassis with me and we couldn't see anything would indicate chassis damage or repair. It is possible the rear beam is bent over its length which wouldn't really be visible to the naked eye.

I am thinking that since it is mainly the left which is bad, it could be something local to that side. I guess the rear beam could be bent on that side only... or something with that side stub axle. I don't know if there is a way to tell without replacing it. I wouldn't think a bushing could induce that much toe/tracking, but I am certainly not very knowledgeable about this.

 

[wayne lcr]

if you look at the back end of the car does the left side look like its tracked out a bit????.

 

[Fien]

i've recently had a similar problem with mine with the left being slightly out compared to the right. there was no obvious sign of damage and they checked the bushes which were fine. the only conclusion was that the rear wheel has hit a curb or something similar and knocked it out of line.

the only way they said that they could possibly fix it would be to replace the parts on a trial and error basis which could end up with replacing the entire rear axle. they didnt seem overly bothered by it and said that most cars they get have a similar issue. If it's not handling dodgy which mine isnt then it's probably best to leave it. If it does chew up the tyres a bit more quickly then for what it costs to replace u could probaly buy new tyres many times over.

i've only had my car for 5 months so didnt know the history but i only noticed this cos the rear tyres were worn on both the insides. I did notice however that the camber of the front tyres were out as well which would result in them wearing down quicker on the insides so the previous owner could easily have swaped the front and rear tyres around to save the tread.

 

[Artmasterx]

if you look at the back end of the car does the left side look like its tracked out a bit????.

Hard to tell, I will give it a closer look later.

i've recently had a similar problem with mine with the left being slightly out compared to the right. there was no obvious sign of damage and they checked the bushes which were fine. the only conclusion was that the rear wheel has hit a curb or something similar and knocked it out of line.

the only way they said that they could possibly fix it would be to replace the parts on a trial and error basis which could end up with replacing the entire rear axle. they didnt seem overly bothered by it and said that most cars they get have a similar issue. If it's not handling dodgy which mine isnt then it's probably best to leave it. If it does chew up the tyres a bit more quickly then for what it costs to replace u could probaly buy new tyres many times over.
.

That's what I was worried about. I just bought it about 2 months ago from a used car lot and obviously didn't notice anything until the rear tires got chewed up. I am going to see if I can persuade the place where I bought it to try to fix the issue, since I have a 1 year warranty of some sort, but in the brief conversation I had with them earlier they seem like they will try to dodge it. We'll see.

Hopefully we can work something out.

 

[Fien]

i tried with the garage i bought it off as well but they were having none of it.

were the tyres ok when u bought it?

 

[Artmasterx]

I believe the tires were ok. I definitely looked at the right rear and I didn't see any problems, but I also didn't really examine the inside edge... the outside was like-new though. Similar with the left rear.

I am curious if the previous owner had put new rear tires on to mask the alignment problem when they were selling it... cause the front tires were relatively (evenly) worn, which I paid to have replaced when I bought it. I have driven about 5000km since purchase.

Annoyed to say the least. Also because the car had a turbo issue off the lot, only noticable when under full throttle at highway speeds. They have at least been good about fixing that...

 

[balls deep]

Hi, I recently bought this car and it had chewed up a set of rear tires so I went for an alignment and new tires. The alignment shop said it was way out of spec in the back, which cannot be fixed (because its a fixed beam/axle).

The alignment geometry is below (sorry, in Dutch). They didn't bother to fix the front because the back was so bad.

Any ideas of what may fix this, other than the rear beam/axle? Could worn bushing cause this much deviation, or a stub axle (not really sure what that is) problem?

Notice the bad tracking/toe and camber on the rear left wheel. Any ideas? Since the right is not too bad and the left is bad, could that mean only a problem in the left rear hub area?

wielvlucht = camber
sporing = tracking/toe
askanteling = caster
voor = front
achter = rear
links = left
rechts = right
actueel = before
vooraf = after (they didn't really make any adjustment, so this is not relevant)
specs is abvious

Thanks... this sucks.

you can align the axle the main mounting brackets (where the axle bush is bolted to the car) has tapered holes for adjustment I know this as i have removed the offside mounting bracket and refitted a new one because it was bent, I marked where the bracket was so I could get it in the right position!

Nb, there are 4 bolts that bolt it to the cars chassis and they are all tapered holes for adjustment

 

[poliq]

If your car is lowered, then that is the reason why you've got too much negative camber at the rear wheels. But I don't get your alignment results. They seem to be so different from side to side, etc.

Maybe something like this will help you!
http://www.gocpt.com/products/1/controlarms.php
http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/product.php?xProd=13216

Forge got them as well! ;-)

 

[Artmasterx]

you can align the axle the main mounting brackets (where the axle bush is bolted to the car) has tapered holes for adjustment I know this as i have removed the offside mounting bracket and refitted a new one because it was bent, I marked where the bracket was so I could get it in the right position!

Nb, there are 4 bolts that bolt it to the cars chassis and they are all tapered holes for adjustment

Thanks for the info. I am thinking something more may be wrong since both camber and tracking at bad. it is almost like the left rear tire was knocked inward at the bottom (giving positive camber) and also rotated outward (giving negative toe/tracking, i think?).

I suppose it could have been from sliding into a curb with the back end pointed towards the curb at angle. It could easily happen in the snow/ice or if driving carelessly/wrecklessly... though I am sure these cars tend to understeer.


|..../
|.../
|*/ (bang, hit rear left side on something?)
|
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If your car is lowered, then that is the reason why you've got too much negative camber at the rear wheels. But I don't get your alignment results. They seem to be so different from side to side, etc.

Maybe something like this will help you!
http://www.gocpt.com/products/1/controlarms.php
http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/product.php?xProd=13216

Forge got them as well! ;-)

It isn't lowered from what I can tell. Yea, the rear side-to-side difference is really bad, which I think is due mainly to the left rear. The right rear looks decent, it just has a bit too much negative camber, but the tracking is good. Maybe that is due to just a bit of sagging in old age.

 

[Artmasterx]

The place where I bought it is going to take a look at the end of the month. I should know something by mid October... I will report back what they find out.

 

[jonofthemalley]

Any news on your rear wheel tracking issue, the reason i'm interested is I have same issue. I only noticed my issue when I approached my car from the rear from a lower altitutde and noticed two stripes on the inside tyre edges these stripes were the wire beading on the crown of the tyre, the outsides looked in good condition.

 

[Artmasterx]

Sorry for not replying... The place replaced the rear torsion beam/axle with one from a salvage yard. Guess what, it is just as bad as the first one was.

Now both of my rear wheels are toed out over 1 degree, and I guess the camber is slightly better.

As far as I know, there is nothing you can really do short of replacing components back there. Camber cannot be adjusted. TOTAL toe cannot be adjusted either, though the rear axle can be rotated slightly to change toe for both rear wheels simultaneously.

For example, if one wheel is toe in 1 degree, and the other is toe out 1 degree, then your total toe is zero. So in theory you could go in, loosen a few bolts, and hit it with a hammer to shift the axle a bit... hopefully re-aligning your rear wheels properly.

In my case, assuming both wheels are toe out 1 degree, if I got one wheel aligned the other wheel would then be 2 degree toe out, which really wouldn't do me much good...

At this point I have basically given up. I am going to see how long the rear tires last, and it is an unacceptably short time, then I am going to see what I can do to get NEW replacement parts put on this time, instead of crappy salvaged parts.

I am holding out hope that the tires will last a reasonably time so I can just not deal with it. I don't really want to think how much it would cost to pay for a new rear axle to go in.

I hope this helps.

 

[Artmasterx]

I just wanted to provide another quick update on the alignment issues.

So the rear tires lasted only about 4500km this time before the tread blocks on the inner tire were completely worn. So I took it back to the shop, and complained and they agreed to fix it. At first, they were saying it just needed new springs because the negative camber was cause the issues... I basically said no, it is definitely the toe that is causing it. Even with major negative camber it would be hard to wear a tire out in 4500km.

Anyway, they took it and did end up putting a new axle on (not sure if it was used or new, but it was mostly straight which is what matters). I don't think they messed with the springs.

So now my rear wheel toe out is between 0.2 and 0.3 degrees (instead of 1.5), which is within the acceptable tolerances for the car.

With the bad axle, I did notice unacceptably bad handling characteristics, where the back end would get skittish and just generally made it feel loose. I also had the unfortunate task of driving in the snow with worn inner edges of the rear tires and the rear end was VERY loose if you went over about 50 kph and the road was slick. Anyway, just keep that in mind if you have a bad rear alignment... it can be dangerous on slick roads.

Also, I asked a Seat dealer about the cost of a new replacement axle, so I figured I would pass it along. I was quoted about 800 euros for the part (VAT included I think), plus another 50 for bushings. Then it was going to be about 10 hours of labor for the install (@50/hr + VAT). So by the end of it, it would have been 1500 euros for the entire job.

The moral of the story. If you have any reason to suspect a car you are thinking to buy is out of alignment at the rear, get it checked. The car I bought had new rear tires on it, which I am 99.9% sure were put on there to mask the alignment issue (either by the place I bought it from or the person that sold it to the user car lot). I had no reason to suspect anything... but in retrospect it seems suspicious. Also, the front tires were about half worn, and I would have probably rotated those to the back it is had been me and I wasn't trying to cover up a problem (to have more tread with the FWD car).

In the end, I have ended up spending a lot of time, about 500 euros on tires/alignment (the car went through two sets in 10000km, one with the original axle and one with the first replacement axle), and it has taken 4 months since I bought the car to have it fixed. Two replacement axles were install, the original and first replacement were both crap. The place where I bought it has been good (except maybe slow to act), and I haven't paid anything to have the problem fixed outside of new tires.

Hopefully this will help someone... though once you have the problem, it is probably an expensive fix. I am not sure if there would be any way to flex the axle back "into shape," but I haven't heard anyone suggest it.