No Brakes after changing rear discs and pads!

FReidiboy

Active Member
Jun 25, 2007
77
0
Campbeltown
I changed the rear disks and pads on my Leon yesterday and as far as I knew all went well but when I finished, jumped in to take it a spin around town I found that I had little to no brakes and that I could put my foot to the floor!!! I could pump the brakes and the prdal would seem normal but when they actually had to do some stopping then they decided not to work. Also my handbrake hardly works at all!

Any ideas as to what ive done wrong???? Your help here would be very much appreciated!!!!
 

DPJ

...........
Dec 13, 2004
7,996
2
NN Yorks / Salento
www.seatcupra.net
I think it's fluid pressure that pushes the piston out to makes the pads contact the discs. I'm not honestly sure if the handbrake acts on fluid or piston, but I don't think the handbrake can operate properly if fluid pressure hasn't taken up the 'slack' first..........
 

Muttley

Catch that diesel!
Mar 17, 2006
4,987
31
North Kent
First things first, when you do anything to the brakes you check them out stationary before you "take it a spin around town". If you'd had a collision, as you well might with no brakes, you would have been in deep trouble for driving an unroadworthy car.

The fact that you have no handbrake action is the clue here. The handbrake works completely separately to the footbrake, using mechanical cables, levers and a self-adjusting mechanism inside the piston. The piston climbs up a threaded rod until it is just clear of the disk, by natural action; you get a small amount of adjustment every time you apply the footbrake *with the handbrake off*. This is why you have to wind the piston out to accomodate new pads.

To quote the manual "After replacing the brake pads, depress the brake pedal a few times with the vehicle stationary, so that the pads reach their working position." If you've wound the pistons all the way out then you might need to pump the pedal quite a bit.

You should also readjust the handbrake cable: This is easiest with two people and a pit, as the adjustment is done from the front seat but is measured at the rear caliper :(

* Remove the central console.
* Pump the brake pedal once.
* With the hand brake lever in rest position, tighten the adjusting nuts until the levers of the brake calipers move away from the stop.
A maximum distance of 1.5 mm on each side is permitted with respect to the stop.
* Pull the hand brake 3 times and then release it.
* Check that both wheels turn freely.

If after all this the rears are still not working (check on axle stands, not on the road) then it's likely that the handbrake adjusters have jammed. The pistons have been wound back onto a bit of the thread that hasn't been used for ages, and it may well be cruddy enough to jam.

What I'd do in this case is estimate the amount of slack (see how far the pads are off the disks) then wind the piston in to take up as much of that as possible. If the piston is difficult to move, this is a clue that the self-adjuster is stiff.

When was the brake fluid changed? If it's more than two years old, it needs changing - it absorbs water and degenerates, giving a spongy pedal feel.

Unless you changed the fluid you shouldn't have any air in the system, assuming you didn't take the calipers off of course.
 

theyellowone

Guest
From what I remember, the rear pads have a locateing lug on them. Ensure this lug is fitted between the appropriate slots in the brake piston. (should be done when winding back the piston)

The handbrake rotates the piston via cables, thats why the piston should be locked into the pads.
 

FReidiboy

Active Member
Jun 25, 2007
77
0
Campbeltown
First things first, when you do anything to the brakes you check them out stationary before you "take it a spin around town". If you'd had a collision, as you well might with no brakes, you would have been in deep trouble for driving an unroadworthy car.

The fact that you have no handbrake action is the clue here. The handbrake works completely separately to the footbrake, using mechanical cables, levers and a self-adjusting mechanism inside the piston. The piston climbs up a threaded rod until it is just clear of the disk, by natural action; you get a small amount of adjustment every time you apply the footbrake *with the handbrake off*. This is why you have to wind the piston out to accomodate new pads.

To quote the manual "After replacing the brake pads, depress the brake pedal a few times with the vehicle stationary, so that the pads reach their working position." If you've wound the pistons all the way out then you might need to pump the pedal quite a bit.

You should also readjust the handbrake cable: This is easiest with two people and a pit, as the adjustment is done from the front seat but is measured at the rear caliper :(

* Remove the central console.
* Pump the brake pedal once.
* With the hand brake lever in rest position, tighten the adjusting nuts until the levers of the brake calipers move away from the stop.
A maximum distance of 1.5 mm on each side is permitted with respect to the stop.
* Pull the hand brake 3 times and then release it.
* Check that both wheels turn freely.

If after all this the rears are still not working (check on axle stands, not on the road) then it's likely that the handbrake adjusters have jammed. The pistons have been wound back onto a bit of the thread that hasn't been used for ages, and it may well be cruddy enough to jam.

What I'd do in this case is estimate the amount of slack (see how far the pads are off the disks) then wind the piston in to take up as much of that as possible. If the piston is difficult to move, this is a clue that the self-adjuster is stiff.

When was the brake fluid changed? If it's more than two years old, it needs changing - it absorbs water and degenerates, giving a spongy pedal feel.

Unless you changed the fluid you shouldn't have any air in the system, assuming you didn't take the calipers off of course.

Here is what I wrote;

but when I finished, jumped in to take it a spin around town I found that I had little to no brakes and that I could put my foot to the floor!!!

As you can see I "didnt" take it a spin around town. I was planning to but when I found that I had no brakes I decided not to!! Im daft but im not that daft!!!

Im probably just going to put the car into the garage for someone more qualified than me to have a look at it. I would have a shot at it myself but to be honest with you I just dont have the time.

I really am stumped with this one thou as the caliper wasnt take off but by the way the brakes feel you would put money on it being air in the system, the brakes are soo damn spongey!!!

Is there any way of winding the pistons too far in so that you damage the actual caliper? With whats been said above it looks like I my have possibly done something to it seeing as even my handbrake hardly works. As for the fluid I am almost 100% sure that it was changed at 40k and that was only a matter of months ago.

Thanks for all the replies though folks, I really appreciate it!!! :thumbup:
 

FReidiboy

Active Member
Jun 25, 2007
77
0
Campbeltown
Yeah, I did that with the handbrake off as soon as I jumped in the car. One of my mates told me to do that before I applied the handbrake.
 

jbcpr

Guest
hi
when you changed the brakes did you take off the cap to the master cylinder (where you put brake fluid) if not when pushing the piston back you may have poped the brake survo this would result in having very little brks
 

FReidiboy

Active Member
Jun 25, 2007
77
0
Campbeltown
hi
when you changed the brakes did you take off the cap to the master cylinder (where you put brake fluid) if not when pushing the piston back you may have poped the brake survo this would result in having very little brks

Yeah, I took the cap off the reservoir before I tried winding the piston back in.

Im going to give the car to my mate who is a mechanic for him to have a look at tomorrow, hopefully we will know the problem then.
 

Muttley

Catch that diesel!
Mar 17, 2006
4,987
31
North Kent
theyellowone wrote

From what I remember, the rear pads have a locateing lug on them. Ensure this lug is fitted between the appropriate slots in the brake piston. (should be done when winding back the piston)

The handbrake rotates the piston via cables, thats why the piston should be locked into the pads.


No, the slots in the piston are only there so that you can wind it back down. It MUST be free to rotate, or the self-adjustment won't work. Think about it, if the pistons must be wound down to fit new, wider (unworn) pads, then as the pads wear the pistons MUST be rotating to take up the slack (by winding themselves up the internal threaded rod). A little lubrication between pad and piston is appropriate.

The handbrake cable pulls on a bellcrank at the caliper, which pushes against this rod, which enters the caliper cylinder cavity through a hydraulic seal. The portion of this rod inside the cylinder is threaded and the brake piston is screwed on to it.

When the handbrake is off, the rod is withdrawn, at its rest position, and hydraulic pressure on the piston, through normal brake pedal application, lifts the piston up the rod as the brakes are applied. The rod is held back (by an outside spring, I think) so that it doesn't impede full brake application, but the piston is encouraged to rotate a little with each application. As the pads wear very little, the movements up the thread are tiny, just enough to keep the handbrake adjustment within spec. The piston/rod screw thread is lubricated by brake fluid, so the piston should wind up the thread rather than lift the rod against the resistance of the seal and spring.

When you put new pads on the pistons can be a long way out of adjustment and need a lot of resetting, by much pumping of the brake pedal with the handbrake off (and wheels chocked of course). If this isn't working, then it's likely that the pistons have seized onto the threaded rod and aren't adjusting themselves at all.


FReidiboy, did you screw the pistons in as far as they would go, until you met resistance and they would screw down no further?

If so, it is likely that the pistons have jammed onto the end of the thread. Get the calipers dismounted again and unscrew the pistons enough that they are free (or as free as they get). Now try again.

If the pistons are jammed on the handbrake rods, they can't go in far enough to make the pads grip the disk. Brake pedal pressure is lifting both piston and handbrake rod, and they will only go so far. This will also be why the handbrake isn't working - it too can't move the pads far enough to press on the disks.

Lift the rear of the car onto axle stands (after chocking the fronts, of course), get a mate to sit in the drivers seat (engine running, you need vacuum assistance for the servo), spin a rear wheel and get the mate to apply the brake. If the wheel doesn't stop instantly then the brake isn't being applied to that wheel. Try again with the handbrake, repeat for the other side. The ONLY thing I can think of that would stop the rears applying in the conditions you describe is jammed handbrake adjusters.

This affects the front brakes as well, as the rears are only working against the springs in the handbrake mechanism and it is easier to bend these (and the linkages etc) than it is to apply full braking force to the front disks. So the brakes are enfeebled all round.

Unless you have been very unlucky, you should be able to release the pistons from the handbrake adjusters yourself. In the very worst case this might mean taking the calipers off and apart, requiring replacement seals and proper bleeding once reassembled, but I'd expect that all you need to do is free up the pistons on the adjusters by unscrewing them a bit.

Fingers crossed for you . . .:)

How do I know all this? I spent many hours of fun and frolic underneath a Mk.2 Golf GTI which had a similar, but less sophisticated, handbrake mechanism, and jammed adjusters were common.
 

FReidiboy

Active Member
Jun 25, 2007
77
0
Campbeltown
As above - great explaination and advice Muttley!!!!

Right, well I have now fixed my problem..................





It WAS air in the system!!!!!

I do not have a scooby-doo as to how I managed it but I did - what a hero, eh?!?!

Anyway, I just want to thank all that commented and I now know alot more about the brakes thanks to your help!!!!


Reid
 
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