for guys interested in water methanol

[vRSy]

this is copied from a post by justin@BSH.



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Water Methanol injection is a fantastic Product with many different uses. here are a few links where there isn't any arguing to sift through.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/faq.php?cID=1

http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_type.php?type=gasoline

You will gather from reading through both FAQ pages that at first glance there isn't much difference between the two kits. I personally lean towards DO kits but I will get into that in a minute...


There are Three main benefits that are usually covered with the installation of Water/Meth. Power, Cleaning Property's & Fuel economy.

Power:
The tuner you use is going to make a pretty big impact on whether or not you will be able to get the full power benefit of one of these kits. With Chip Tuning that doesn't offer switchable maps you will probably see about 10 to 14 HP. This is very comparable to throwing 109 Octane in the tank of a completely stock car. The biggest power gains are going to come with chip tuning that offers some sort of switchable "Race Fuel File" pretty much all of the most reputable software companies have this option, GIAC and their flash loader, REVO with their SPS, and even APR with that nifty switcher that is built into the column. When you have the availability to switch to a MAP that runs a higher boost level and more advanced timing you will see huge power gains and can really take advantage of the octane boost. In some of our studies we have seen up to 40 WHP paired with an appropriate MAP on the 2.0t FSI.

Cleaning:
The cleaning benefit is also huge with these kits. It is a commonly known issue that there is a huge amount of build up on the intake valves on the FSI cars due to the direct injection and horrible stock PCV system. The water pretty much steam cleans the valves as it passes by on it's way into the cylinder. In my personal experience with the FSI these kits do a better job at keeping valves clean then they do at penetrating the massive amounts of build-up that forms on the MKV.

Fuel economy:
Fuel economy is increased in the gasoline cars just like if you were to run "Race Fuel". The extra 20-25% of octane provided by the methanol allows for more spark timing advance and a leaner air/fuel ratio with the use of a programmer. Both of these factors not only improve power, their efficiency gains improve mileage as well. Additionally, many modern cars will detect the combustion of the methanol and reduce the injection of gasoline accordingly through the adjustment of long-term fuel trim values in the vehicles computer. This can directly and positively impact gasoline fuel economy. Gains of 5-15% are possible depending on how the vehicle is tuned and driven.

For diesel Vehicles The MPG-MAX™ systems from Snow Performance is specifically designed to enhance Power and fuel economy. Both the diesel MPG-MAX™ systems are specifically designed to inject a very small and precise amount of water/methanol under normal driving conditions such as accelerating away from a stop light or driving up a slight grade. Gains of 10-20% are possible depending on how the vehicle is tuned and driven.

Recap for OP:
1- power/torque increases when used on top of a standard remap
8 - 15 WHP

2- Power/torque figures when used in conjunction with a water/methanol specific remap to make the most of it.
25 - 40 WHP

3- How long a mixture will last,
Depending on driving habits you will go through about 1 gallon of mix to a tank of gas.

4- Can it be set up to only operate on full throttle or will it be on all the time.
The progressive controller option on the stage 2 kits makes this very adjustable.

5- What different water/meth ratios will give what sort of results.
The more methanol you use the more octane you see the more water you use the more cooling you see.

6- Can it damage your car
Not if installed properly.

7- best places to store the mixture
Garage, shed, barn...? check label on methanol container.

8- will it clean out your engine like nos would
YES!

In my own personal experience I lean towards the Devils own kit. The Snow kits have there benefit but for the 2.0t direct injection motors Devils Own has my vote. Just about every kit on the market has an adjustable progressive-rate controller. The reason DO has everyone licked is because there progressive rate controller is Pulse regulated. That means that as your car builds boost the pump is being sent full 12V pulses until it reaches the specified full-on mode that you set on the controller. The benefit is that you are seeing better atomization of the mixture all the way through the power ban thus seeing more performance and better cooling. Other benefits are that DO's standard pump is a strong 250 psi pump There nozzles are of their own design and focused around ease of installation and the bulk heads that let you to tap into the window washer tank allow you to have an indicator light on your dash letting you know when it's time for a refill.

We are master Distributors of Devils own and Snow performance, we currently supply multiple dealers with there Water/Methanol kits all over the world including BADGER 5. Dubtek being a BSH Dealer also has full access to these kits.

Link:
http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/home.php?cat=703

-------some more info and pics----------

here you go
some pics of installs

speaking to a few people who have done this, they reckon a nozzle 6"berfore your throttle body is hthe minimum maybe another @ the bottom just after the intercooler.

or you could go crazy like this guy and get them in your inlet manifold as well.
pics from this build thread http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98645&highlight=water+methanol

here are some of peoples do it yourself threads i have read.
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109278&highlight=water+methanol

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50805&highlight=water+methanol

 

[Poverty]

This stuff will be good for keeping the valves from shitting up. Could ideally get rid of the catch can then aswell

 

[vRSy]

dont think they wil be related in that way though. the catch can captures the vapours and all that ****, the water meth will clean the valves etc.

This is something im massivly interested in getting.

water meth also acts like an intercooler would in the way it cools the inlet temps, but as well as that the way it prevents early detonation, meaning timing can be advanced and more power can therefore be made. hence why bigger gains can be had by a tweaked map.

saying that though, even if just running it on top of your normal remap without tweaks, if it made 10hp, it would still be worth it,

i think on danGBs it made nearly 20Hp as a stand alone mod ontop of the map, sopotentially more is available when he has his car mapped to utilise the water meth.

 

[DPJ]

You haven't mentioned mine

 

[vRSy]

why, what have you had done to yours. any info would be welcome mate.

id be keen to see what your impressons were on the results, as in did you feel a noticable gain and at what points in the rev range were they most noticable.

1-have you done any loggin with VCDS etc, is be interested to see how much inlet temps were dropped compared to before.
2-are you running a odified water meth specific remap or is it standalone on top of the remap.
3-do you have any perfoamnce info such as graphs for before and after

 

[cupra.al]

this might sound like a stupid question but does it lower the level of emmisions too?

 

[vRSy]

all the info i have learned about water meth has been via internet searching and emails from suppliers etc, so im not a water meth tech head. im sure though if it reduces detonation it must reduce emissions slightly as a by product.

 

[cupra.al]

would be intresting to know how much it brings down the emmissions by as if it was a large amount then it would be a good way to bring newer cars with larger engines down in tax bracket if it ever ended up being factory fitted.

 

[vRSy]

very true

 

[cupra.al]

or making our cars go through mot without a cat on lol.

 

[vRSy]

no your talking

 

[Fishy]

There's also plenty of information over on the ERL forums as well. They cover their and over brands of WI.

Fish

 

[vRSy]

ERL?????,
link please

 

[Bruce-m]

Another place for DO kits from here in the uk is www.methanol-injection.co.uk good info on the site with pics and vids to.

 

[Fishy]

Clicky Link to ERL forums

Fish

 

[vRSy]

This info is a result of searching around the net for info on water/methanol injection and its benefits and compressing out the sh!te where possible (I need to get a life)

WHAT IS WATER METHANOL INJECTION

Water injection systems prevent or suppress detonation. It works by spraying an extremely fine mist direct into the intake manifold at a pre selected boost pressure or MAF signal

Alcohol/methanol injection doesn't do the same things as NOS does. None of the same dangers. It is acting as an intercooler enhancer and octane booster. It can lower the cylinder temps or exhaust gasses by upto 300 degrees and makes 95 octane fuel basically look like 112 octane.

Fuel accounts for 70% of engine cooling and FACT Water absorbs SIX times more heat than fuel and evaporates instantly inside the intake manifold taking with it a great deal of heat, so you can imagine the massive cooling effect of water injection.

HOW MUCH CAN AIR TEMP EFFECT PERFORMANCE YOU ASK???

From the table below, you will note that air at 0C contains almost 30% more oxygen per given volume, than air at 77C.

Air Temperature
Air Density
% increase of oxygen

77C
0.9950 kg/m^3

40C
1.113 kg/m^3
+ 12% oxygen

27C
1.1614 kg/m^3
+ 17% oxygen

0C
1.2763 kg/m^3
+ 28% oxygen

So if your car is tuned for say 12.0:1 fuel mixture (rich) for maximum power and the air going into your engine is at 77C, you might make say 241bhp @ wheels. Now if you could get that intake air down to 0C and still have your engine tuned at 12.0:1 fuel mixture, you will make 30% more power based simply on oxygen levels in the air = 241bhp @ wheels x 1.3 = 314bhp @ wheels. That’s a massive 73bhp increase!!!

Now obviously, unless your using dry ice somewhere along your intake path, you won’t get the air to 0C, but that is just to give you an indication of the true effects of air temps and their relation to power output.

WHAT BENEFIT DOES THIS GIVE ME

-The kit allows you to run higher boost, advance ignition and lean out air fuel ratios

-Alcohol does not cause any problems to your engine. It actually "steam" cleans the inside of your throttle body, intake, heads, valves, and exhaust!

INCREASING THE POWER OUTPUT BY INCREASING THE BOOST PRESSURE. WOULD ALCOHOL/WATER INJECTION HELP THEN?

It all depends, if you have good quality fuel and the ambient temperature is not too high you can normally get away with 2-3 psi of boost increase without using alcohol/water injection and will not run into detonation problems.
On the other hand, if you DO NOT have good quality fuel, the ambient temperature is high, or there is a slight tendency for engine knock, then alcohol/water injection or a bigger intercooler is essential

This next Info is based on devils own WMI, but will be similar for the other kits like snow performance who also offer boost or MAF activated systems

WHAT KIT SHOULD I GET, STAGE 1 OR STAGE 2?

Our DevilsOwn Stage 1 "Base" injection kit incorporates a boost switch that activates the system at a specific PSI. It’s adjustable from 2-10 psi or 6-30psi, but you can run up to 250 PSI through the switch, so it’s very reliable. This system will turn on at a level you set and stay on until you drop below that level. It’s On/Off. It can’t dial in exact flow, but it can get you within a range.

DevilsOwn Stage 2 "Progressive" kits offer high functionality and performance, the ability to vary the flow based on inputs (maf, map, tps, ait, any 0-5v source). Most users run it off of separate GM style map sensor if there car does not already have a map sensor. With the Stage 2 Kit you set a starting boost and a full boost and the system will progressively adjust the flow between those two points.

Both styles work. We tell our customers that if budget is the primary concern, get the base injection kit. If you have a little more money to spend or want something with more user control, the progressive kit is worth it.

 

[vRSy]

Where to locate your alcohol-water injection nozzle.

Well let's first start with where not to place the nozzle. When placing your water injection nozzle makes sure you do not place the nozzle upstream of a MAF or mass air flow sensor.
Fluid running through this sensor can damage these sensors on some particular engines. Next we recommend not installing these pre-intercooler unless you are injecting pre-blower on a supercharged engine that has an intake mounted intercooler. Injecting before front mount intercooler can cause the water-alcohol mixture to collect at the bottom because of the restriction of the tubes. Okay, now we know where not to place the nozzle, lets get on to where to place it.


Starting from where the air enters the intake tract and ending at the intake just prior to the combustion chamber.
1 Pre-Turbo water
We don't recommend this location at all if you do not have the proper equipment such as the proper nozzle, nozzle size and high pressure pump. Locating the nozzle here is the most controversial location. The majority of alcohol/water injection users do not use this location. One reason for someone to inject at this location is the water/methanol mixture chemically alters the turbo compressor map. The water/methanol injection will dynamically shifts the compressor map of the turbo so that it has the compressor map exhibits the characteristics of a larger turbo. This sounds great but, the main issue with pre-turbo nozzle placement is what mixture can damage the compressor blade if the mixture is not properly atomized when passing through the turbo.
In order to inject pre-turbo with out compressor damage you need a high quality low volume nozzle and high enough pressure to get the water as finely misted as possible, and the smaller nozzle which allows for smaller/finer water droplets. We recommend you mount the nozzle as close to the compresser as possible.

2 Pre-Intercooler

Pre-intercooler seems like a sensible nozzle location but, the thing to think about is if the air entering the IC is pre-cooled, the ability of the intercooler is because the temp difference is lesser. It is also possible for the fine water/alcohol mist to collect in the bottom of your intercooler core. We don't recommend this location either. The other problem is that there's a possibility that the hot air from the turbo might unnecessarily vaporize the water and take up some of the volume built up by the turbo that was supposed to be for the charge. Pre-IC does work for some track cars such as road racing that operate at a more constant higher RPM. For the daily driver, weekend racer, the pre-intercooler location should not be considered.

3 Post Intercooler

Most computer controlled engines have an intake air temperature (IAT) sensor. This sensor monitors the temperature of the air going into the motor. The reason for putting it before the IAT sensor is because it will see the cooler temps and the engine will advance timing, allowing for more power. Also placing the injection nozzle as far from the cylinders/air intake sensor as possible, it allows for the water/methanol mixture to be better absorbed into the intake air charge. This allows for great distribution to each cylinder. This post intercooler nozzle location should be the primary nozzle location to be considered for most users.
In theory, since the air charge will be mixed for a longer distance, and therefore time, allowing for the moisture to be absorbed by the air, creating the coolest possible air charge going into the cylinders. Water/methanol molecules from a nozzle located here have more time to be absorbed by the intake charge exiting the IC before making it into the combustion chamber.

4 Pre-Air Intake Temperature Sensor

In the cold side charge pipe is usually an easier or less intrusive nozzle location for most user's than the IC exit tank, but still the closer to IC the better. Locating the nozzle here has same as for reason given in above (location 3)

5 After Air Intake Sensor

After the Air Intake Sensor: You can usually mount it either before or after the ‘butterfly' and still be after the air intake temperature sensor. The main difference when mounting the injector before or after the butterfly is there is less vacuum before versus after the butterfly when idling or driving in vacuum. Translation, when in vacuum, there is more vacuum after the butterfly than before it. Here is why this is important: If your solenoid is placed very far from the injectors (more than a couple of feet), then the vacuum can actually suck just a little bit of the water/methanol. This small amount of moisture ingestion during vacuum is not a problem.

6 Intake manifold

This location can be the most complex area to install. Usually requiring that he intake be removed for access. Injecting here is going to yield the largest water/methanol droplets. And with the closer proximity to the combustion chambers is going to provide a larger amount of mixture into the cylinders. Doing this usually requires more fuel from the factory system be removed. This option is best for max cooling.
The water here is being injected in a manner much like port fuel injection and it is the bigger water molecules being injected here that have a more direct effect of in cylinder cooling and injection here has more of an effect of altering the flame front of the combustion charge in a way much like a higher octane fuel. To take full advantage of this nozzle location it is suggested that trimming away some of the factory dumped fuel be done. In other words, in order to take advantage of the better properties of water over fuel for cooling and injecting water at this location, you want to remove the dumped fuel and actually REPLACE this with water. This injection point with a pretty sophisticated WI control method allows for the most advantageous use of water injection. The drawback for nozzles located heres is kit/component complexity, install complexity, additional labor, possible machine shop costs, and possible additional parts costs.

 

[vRSy]

kits ive found that are available

Devils own stage 1(boost operated) £209.99 http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/index.php?cPath=21
devils own stage 2 (maf operated) £279.99 http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/index.php?cPath=21

snow perfomance stage 2 (maf operated)£454 http://www.jabbasport.com/store/inde...ef=2001220TFSI

AEM water meth kit £325+vat sold by backdraft motorsport (£300 for fitting )

fitting costs from http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=62

w/m install with tank in the boot £105
w/m install utilising stock washer bottle £85

not as expensive as thought

 

[warren_cox]

Good read, very interesting stuff.

 

[DanGB]

I know some people using just water for the cooling and it works well.