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Coil packs or coil and HT leads?

Phillc

Love is....Yellow
Apr 23, 2007
4,170
20
Pershore, worcestershire
I have been thinking and and was wondering, it is possible to change back to coil and Ht leads, but is it worth it what over all benefit would there be apart from not having to worry about coil packs giving up, i know some one did this on their 1.8t Ibiza but cant remember who it was, i have also found a OE coil for my engine AUQ http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/V-W-AUDI-A3-A...14&_trkparms=72:1683|66:4|65:12|39:1|240:1318 but didn't know there where ever any fitted with anything other than the coil packs, any input will be very welcome
 

Phillc

Love is....Yellow
Apr 23, 2007
4,170
20
Pershore, worcestershire
cheers Andy, the thing i was thinking with the coil is that nothing will fail, and the £20 each for the coil packs is not cheap, times that by five and that's the coil and HT leads bought, i was just interested about any benefits of the coil packs over the HT set up.
 

kevvick

Guest
Im not sure that its possible as with older cars you need a distributor to send the spark yto each plug but with coil packs they just get a signal from the ecu when it is their turn to spark, it probably is possible but would be more hassle than its worth.
 

Muttley

Catch that diesel!
Mar 17, 2006
4,987
31
North Kent
You can't replace four coil-on-plugs with a single coil, primarily because you don't have a distributor to send the spark to the right plug.

Distributors are failure-prone anyway, a rotating high-voltage spark gap switch, and the source of huge amounts of electrical noise.

The engine needs one coil per cylinder. The coil pack you linked to will not fit your AUQ engine without serious modifications to the wiring, and won't work properly as it is a wasted spark device, two coils firing plugs in pairs. The ECU expects four terminations to the coil leads, and will throw a warning light if two are left dangling, as well as no longer being able to adjust the timing of each spark.

With lots of luck and a following wind you might find an external coil pack with four coils potted together (maybe for a V8 engine) or four individual coils. Not likely to be cheap, though. You'd need to modify the wiring to take all four of the low-tension signal wires into the external pack, and of course you'd have to put in HT leads.

The most failure-prone electrical components on a petrol engine are the HT leads. Carrying high voltage, they break down when its wet, or if they're old, or sometimes just out of spite. They don't improve your reliability. They need replacing relatively often.

On top of that, your engine is designed to have the HT bits electrically shielded inside the cylinder head tunnels. Bring them outside and you'll get a lot more electrical noise inside the bonnet (long leads carrying high voltage pulses). The ECU relies on lots of sensors providing low-voltage signals through unshielded wiring. Electrical noise will upset the ECU. We've seen some of this with people having issues when using the Nime box(1) to revitalise their burned-out fans. This is not to say it can't be done, but VAG would have to re-engineer the whole engine electrical system to take account of the extra noise.

Taking the coils outside the cylinder head should make them a bit more reliable, they won't be getting so hot and if you mount them off the engine they won't be shaken up so much. They could be made a bit larger and more robust. But the further away you put the coils, the longer the HT leads have to be. And it's not true to say that external coils never fail. VR6 owners have just as many problems with their 3-coil packs (mounted on the engine, it has to be said), and replacing a 6-cylinder (or 4-cylinder) coil pack is a lot more expensive than an individual coil-on-plug component.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1568254

To sum up.

Pro:
Mounting coils externally (preferably off the engine) means they can be bigger and more heavily engineered. The environment is less stressful (cooler than engine, less vibration). This should lead to greater reliability.

Con:
HT leads: poor reliability, require maintenance, must be routed clear of hot engine.
Electrical noise under the bonnet that was not taken account of when the car was designed. Interference with ECU signals
Will require the low-tension electrical connections to be reworked and extended.




1: The Nime box works well and is a good and elegant solution to VAG's quick-and-dirty way of controlling fan speeds with resistors. It is a switched-mode speed controller and sends low-voltage high-current pulses down the fan wires. It is reliable on cars it has been tested in, but the developer is not a big corporation and has only been able to test in a few cars, mostly provided by helpful customers. In some other cars it has been linked to CEL's and ABS irregularities. This is almost certainly because of noise pickup, crosstalk between the Nime signals and other sensor wires. With a little development this could be supressed. Note that more recent VAG engines use a switched-mode fan controller very similar to the Nime box, but of course they have done the testing and development to take account of electrical interference under the bonnet
 

Phillc

Love is....Yellow
Apr 23, 2007
4,170
20
Pershore, worcestershire
Hi,
Thanks for the info, you don't need a distributed as seat do a coil for the 1.8 engine please see first post, and i know it can be done as some one on here had done it to there ibiza and offered to sell the conversion to me but i wasn't interested, but later just wondered what the benefit would be.
 

DPJ

...........
Dec 13, 2004
7,996
2
NN Yorks / Salento
www.seatcupra.net
Phil, if you have a look at a VagCom 020 Block log, you'll notice that the ecu is able to apply different timing correction factors to each spark plug.

How do you think it would achieve that sophistication without individual control over each coilpack?
 

Muttley

Catch that diesel!
Mar 17, 2006
4,987
31
North Kent
Phillc wrote

Thanks for the info, you don't need a distributed as seat do a coil for the 1.8 engine please see first post,

Your first post contains a link to an Ebay advert from Daytona GB Limited who are not, as far as I can tell, Seat. Daytona GB Limited claims on Ebay that this is an OEM coil for a lot of cars, including Leon 1.8T cars with AUQ engines. Based on the technical documentation I have seen this is wrong, perhaps a typographical error when transcribing the engine types from a list.

It may seem like nitpicking, but that's not a singular coil, it's a coil pack, a pair of coils potted together. It will fire four plugs on the wasted spark system, where each plug fires every time the piston approaches TDC, once on the power stroke and once on the exhaust stroke. Each coil sparks two plugs simultaneously. One coil could only spark four plugs if each plug fired twice per stroke, once at TDC and once at BDC. That would add sparks at the end of the power stroke (probably not an issue) and at the end of the induction stroke (not so sure here). Once again, I can't see an advantage.

Other shops offer the same OEM coil pack but don't list the 1.8T engine as a recipient.

and i know it can be done as some one on here had done it to there ibiza and offered to sell the conversion to me

Had anything else been done to the car and what benefits did they claim? I'm not saying it can't be done, but it doesn't seem worth the effort.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that this Ibiza had been radically worked over and the standard ECU had been replaced with an aftermarket one, which required a different ignition system.
 

Phillc

Love is....Yellow
Apr 23, 2007
4,170
20
Pershore, worcestershire
Your first post contains a link to an Ebay advert from Daytona GB Limited who are not, as far as I can tell, Seat. Daytona GB Limited claims on Ebay that this is an OEM coil for a lot of cars, including Leon 1.8T cars with AUQ engines. Based on the technical documentation I have seen this is wrong, perhaps a typographical error when transcribing the engine types from a list..

As you say it Say's OE hence me saying Seat, as i said before i have no idea about this and that is why i asked the question.



Had anything else been done to the car and what benefits did they claim? I'm not saying it can't be done, but it doesn't seem worth the effort.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that this Ibiza had been radically worked over and the standard ECU had been replaced with an aftermarket one, which required a different ignition system.

I have no idea what else was done to the Ibiza:confused: he just offered me the "Kit" to replace the coil packs, when i bought another part from him and i just assumed this was a readily available thing.

I am beginning to wish i hadn't bothered asking now. :doh:
 

koala5

Active Member
Feb 14, 2009
26
0
My knowledge of car electric's is limited, but from what I can understand most manufacturers have gone towards coil packs of one sort or another to increase reliabilty and give the ECU more control over the engine, by getting rid of HT leads a constant source of problems in the damp! and the distributor and rotor arm another source of problems which again required regular maintanance. How antiquated is spinning a contact round to make with 4 electrodes to contol the timing of the engine! I believe even washing machines have moved away from that technic now.
So the different types I have seen are the Seat type with 4 individual coil packs, my old Vauxhall Vectra used to have something that looked very much like a distributor stuck on the end of the engine but was infact one large coil pack with 4 HT leads coming off it serving all 4 plugs and was rather expensive to replace, I think ford use the same.
The other way too look at it is if your distributor, rotor arm, or single large expensive coil pack packs up then you are in deep doo doo you aint going anywhere! At least with 4 seperate ones if one gives in chance's are the engine will continue to run and get you home. :):):)
PS: In my 20 odd years of driving I have had far more problems with distributors, rotor arms and HT leads, than I've ever had with coil packs.
 
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