Cambelt AND water pump?

jac

Mar 10, 2020
1
0
I bought an Ibiza 1.4 fr act (ea211) a couple years ago which is now approaching 5 years old.
My local seat dealer has quoted £499 for the cambelt change or £588 if they include the water pump which they say is recommended. However everything I read online says the water pump is run off another belt and there is no saving in labour doing it with the cambelt. Also, £588 is the price quoted on the website for a diesel engine cambelt and water pump. There is no mention of a petrol engine water pump at all.

So can someone in the know explain what is going on?
What is the benefit of doing the water pump at the same time and why is there no mention of petrol engine water pumps on their website?
Thanks
 

Crossthreaded

Active Member
Apr 16, 2019
546
150
I bought an Ibiza 1.4 fr act (ea211) a couple years ago which is now approaching 5 years old.
My local seat dealer has quoted £499 for the cambelt change or £588 if they include the water pump which they say is recommended. However everything I read online says the water pump is run off another belt and there is no saving in labour doing it with the cambelt. Also, £588 is the price quoted on the website for a diesel engine cambelt and water pump. There is no mention of a petrol engine water pump at all.

So can someone in the know explain what is going on?
What is the benefit of doing the water pump at the same time and why is there no mention of petrol engine water pumps on their website?
Thanks
I have the 1.0 litre CHZB 3 cylinder EA 211 in my Ibiza and yup, I'm guessing, as your engine is in the EA211 "family" it'll be the same in many respects in which case the water pump is mounted on the "back end" of the cylinder head and driven by a small synchronous (toothed to you and me) belt all of it's own from the back end of the exhaust cam. When changing the timing belt the cams are locked with a tool that fits into the back end of the head/cams but the water pump and it's drive belt do not need to be disturbed. Also the water pump drive belt is not part of the valve train drive so even if it did break it would not cause the valves to get "intimate" with the piston crowns. It's because many engines have a water pump driven by the timing belt that it's usually recommended to change the pump at the same time. because where the pump is in train with the valve gear if the pump bearings fail the "wobbly" pump pulley can then cause the belt to skip teeth and do damage. With our engines the pump can't cause this to happen.

So really the only thing to think about is - how long might the pump continue to function if I don't change it? My cam belt will need to be changed next year when It's 5 years old, although it will only have done about 25,000 miles from new by then. I would normally do a belt change myself but I've decided with this car to let AVW do it for me mainly because the timing tool kit is quite pricey and I don't think I'd use it a second time. But also it's an engine I have no experience with at all. I mentioned it about a year or so ago when I was by them for a chat (I know the owners) and mentioned that I'd feel happier doing the pump at the same time but they said they don't tend to do them just as a matter of course. I'm thinking about what I'm going to do on that front and intend to ask them if they've had any pumps fail yet. Maybe I'll get them to fit just a new pump belt if it's easy enough to do?

Sorry I can't quote prices but, on past performance (AVW have done work on my older boys Fabias) They usually charge substantially less than main dealer rates. £500 looks quite steep to me though. Interesting that they only add another £90 approx to do the pump as well. If AVW quote me substantially less than that I would be very tempted to do the pump at the same time just for peace of mind and for the engines well being. (overheating on turboed petrol engines is most definitely not a good idea!). I've done a search on the timing belt kit - it's a very simple one as there's no water pump - consting of the belt itself, a tensioner pulley and an idler pulley. Seems to be available for around the £80 mark depending on brand (I prefer Gates)

Hope some of these "ramblings are of interest?
 

SaracenUK

Active Member
Aug 28, 2010
103
3
I bought an Ibiza 1.4 fr act (ea211) a couple years ago which is now approaching 5 years old.
My local seat dealer has quoted £499 for the cambelt change or £588 if they include the water pump which they say is recommended. However everything I read online says the water pump is run off another belt and there is no saving in labour doing it with the cambelt. Also, £588 is the price quoted on the website for a diesel engine cambelt and water pump. There is no mention of a petrol engine water pump at all.

So can someone in the know explain what is going on?
What is the benefit of doing the water pump at the same time and why is there no mention of petrol engine water pumps on their website?
Thanks


I was quoted £699 for the cambelt and water pump on same FR 1.4 ACT by a service center in Camberley, GU15.
So your £588 is looking quite good.
 

Crossthreaded

Active Member
Apr 16, 2019
546
150
The first post in this section mentions that the garage quoting him for doing the timing belt change recommended the water pump too. Whilst I would strongly support the fitting of a new pump where the pump is in the timing belt drive train because if it fails the consequences can be dire (and I believe the pump bearings will be under considerably more stress as part of the timing belt system compared to one driven otherwise - for instance by a multi V aux belt). So this set me to thinking.

In my younger days, when I earned my living on the shop floor, pretty much all water pumps were driven by the "fan" belt. Most of the everyday "bodsmobiles" in those days were over head valve engines with push rod operated valves - A and B series BMC, Ford Kent series, Rootes group with the Avenger and Hunter, etc, etc. The timing chains were short and seemed to last well but when they did need to be renewed you wouldn't dream of doing the water pump too unless it was noisy or leaking. Then along came these more modern engines with pumps driven by the timing belt and we all got used to changing the pump almost regardless of it's condition (I'm not saying this is wrong, but it has got us mentally conditioned into thinking the water pump will need doing whenever a timing belt gets changed?). Only a few of the pumps, of this type, which I've changed have shown signs of "distress" and would probably have continued in service for quite some time if not changed. However if they would have lasted the whole life of the new belt being fitted is quite another question. So I'll repeat that I think pumps in applications such as these do need to be changed regardless of their apparent condition at the time of the belt being renewed.

Then it occurred to me that my old 1999 Cordoba 1.9tdi with the VE engine (I really miss that car) - so the water pump was driven by the fan belt - had 3 timing belts renewed during the time I owned it (had it for around 18 years). It was well into the low 100,000,s of miles when I scrapped it and still running on it's original water pump with no signs of leaks. Then there's my son's 2007 Astra 1600 with the VVT engine (XER I think?) It also, unlike many of Vauxhall's offerings, has an aux belt driven pump. It's also just getting into the low 100,000's of miles and had it's 3rd timing belt fitted a few weeks ago when the VVT pulleys succumbed to the dreaded "clacks" and had to be replaced. It too shows no signs of the pump leaking or having worn bearings so it was left alone.

Now with the water pump on my wee 1.0 litre 95 hp EA211 engined Ibiza being not involved in the timing belt drive train I find myself wondering if it too could be left until it shows early signs of distress as I would have with those older cars? (must have a look at how easy it would be to see a leak) Maybe recent experience (well, recent for me when compared to the old engines of the '60's and early '70s) with the almost automatic changing of water pumps with timing belt renewal, has "brainwashed" many of us - and I include professional mechanics here - into thinking that water pumps normally get changed with timing belts and leaving us feeling "nervous" if we don't?

Mind you my Ibiza's water pump appears to be an all plastic affair? Now that actually makes me feel insecure in it's own right after having seen the way plastic components warp and change their shape with age and temperature - my boy's Astra has warping problems with it's cam cover for this reason (thank goodness for modern silicon sealants!) On the whole I'm not very keen on plastic engine components! Maybe I should just do the water pump at the same time as the belt anyway?
 
Lecatona HPFP (High-pressure Fuel Pump Upgrades)