Brake failure - Help

[benditchburn]

Dear all

My girlfriend has a 2003 Ibiza and the following keeps happening whilst she is driving:

Brake pedal locks - she cannot depress the pedal, which gives no brakes - eek
EPC light comes on
engine light comes on
Car stalls
Steering occasionally goes

Obviously this is very worrying and I did my nut when I found out she was driving about with it like this (it seems to have happened at slow speeds - hence she is still with us). She took it into the dealership and they ran a diagnostic and came up with a faulty manifold sensor. That was replaced for £200 and off she went -only to find the same fault again, this time in the snow and she span the car - very worrying

So it is going back to the dealer tomorrow. Any thoughts on why this might be happening as the dealership seem a bit clueless to the point of dangerous and need a push in the right direction. I have noticed a lot of threads that point to the brake light switch under the brake pedal causing a multitude of ills, but nothing as extreme as this.

I also noticed one of the passenger side brake lights on when the car was parked the other day, with the lights off and the keys in the ignition, which again makes me think the brake light switch could be on the blink.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Cheers

Ben

 

[RUM4MO]

A far as I know, the brake pedal switch should not cause any of these sort of problems. You say that the car engine stalled, has she tried switching the engine off (while in a safe place) while the car is moving - and then tried the brakes - just to see if she gets the same effect? Under normal conditions, if the engine stops, it should be possible to get one "GOOD" braking go - at least, if the pedal hardens as soon as the engine has stopped then I'd expect that there is a vacum leak at the servo. Is this a petrol or TDI engined car - I think that TDI has an axilliary vac pump - but could be wrong!

One brake light being on when ignition off and brake pedal "released" is not correct. Are you sure that you are not seeing a rear parking light with the indicator switch left at one side and the ignition key out?

 

[benditchburn]

Cheers for replying

A far as I know, the brake pedal switch should not cause any of these sort of problems. You say that the car engine stalled, has she tried switching the engine off (while in a safe place) while the car is moving - and then tried the brakes - just to see if she gets the same effect?

She has worked out that if she switches the ignition off and on again, the car will go back to normal. Although she said that for a while the engine light was on for a while.

When driving the brakes lock up and the epc and the engine light come on, she then switches off the ignition quickly and back on again, this frees up the brakes and the epc light goes off, but the brakes are still heavy and she will pull over and switch on and off again, and all will go back to normal, except the engine light will stay on for a few days

I don't think she has tried the test you describe and the fault seems so quick I think it might be hard to set up, but I have asked her to give it a go.


Under normal conditions, if the engine stops, it should be possible to get one "GOOD" braking go - at least, if the pedal hardens as soon as the engine has stopped then I'd expect that there is a vacum leak at the servo.

I expected the same as you that she would get some braking after the engine stalled, but she swears that it locks and try as she might pushing the pedal is like "hitting a wall"


Is this a petrol or TDI engined car - I think that TDI has an axilliary vac pump - but could be wrong!

She has the petrol version.

One brake light being on when ignition off and brake pedal "released" is not correct. Are you sure that you are not seeing a rear parking light with the indicator switch left at one side and the ignition key out


Its not often that I drive it so am not too familiar with the lights, but i am fairly sure that i left the keys in the ignition in the off position and the light that was on was a small red round one on the passenger side, so that should not be a parking light should it? - I was also out of the car, so nothing was on the brake.

Thanks again, all advice very much appreciated

Ben

 

[mr_D]

servo vac leak causes this. makes the pedal near enough impossible to press. check the pipes but as stated if td then it will have a pump run off a belt that will control the vacum

oh and please stop bumping old threads with rediculous posts. much appreciated!

 

[benditchburn]

Thanks for the advice, with two folks advising this i feel armed for the dealership tomorrow, cheers.

I am getting the hang of the forum now, so know to let sleeping threads lie now!

 

[mr_D]

Thanks for the advice, with two folks advising this i feel armed for the dealership tomorrow, cheers.

I am getting the hang of the forum now, so know to let sleeping threads lie now!

its not that mate. its just u bumped loads of old thread the other day with one word posts and things and it just seemed a bit pointless. we are here to help though.


and just so you know the ibiza mk3 cupra had a recall on the brake servo hose. i know your car wont have this recall as its a mk4 but its something to think about.


you havent said if its diesel or petrol and with this we might be able to help more

 

[RUM4MO]

and just so you know the ibiza mk3 cupra had a recall on the brake servo hose. i know your car wont have this recall as its a mk4 but its something to think about.

you havent said if its diesel or petrol and with this we might be able to help more

He did - its petrol engine!

The 6K Ibiza recal was for "hard as a *****'s heart" superduper flexible piping from the "50's" being used. As you say these car have completely different vacum tubing.

Whoops caught by the bad words filter sorry!

 

[benditchburn]

Thanks folks

You know your stuff.

Now I know about the loss of vacuum and have asked her about it in light of that, she is remembering that it always happened after she braked, so we seem to be barking up the right tree. Would just a faulty pipe cause the car to stall as well, or does that mean the servo if naffed and the brake fluid is getting back into the manifold?

What I am amazed about is that this seems common knowledge to you guys and it has escaped the dealership on two seperate occasions in the last month. First they replaced the ABS sensor to fix the brakes (or that is what she recalls) and next they replaced the manifold sensor.

Other than that we just need the 2 foot of snow to melt now so we can get the car to the garage

 

[Ant FR]

you'd be surprised at how many delaers and tech guys who work for dealers are not actually interested in cars, its just a job to them and they have no interest in learning bits or even reserching the internet. Welcome to 2010, Customer service died back in the 90's

In future you may find it better to speak to a VAG independent garage who specialise in these cars, they are usually cheaper than the dealer and damn site more knwoledgable. Don't assume that the techs at the local SEAT dealer know all the answers as 12 months ago the delaer may have been selling fords or subarus. Indpendents usually have a lot more knowledge.

Look at the spnosrs on here for details of local specialist s in yiour area, and even if a standard car, tuners will still be able to help. AMD do just as many 1.4 polo seruvices as they do remaps on R8's,

 

[mr_D]

He did - its petrol engine!

The 6K Ibiza recal was for "hard as a *****'s heart" superduper flexible piping from the "50's" being used. As you say these car have completely different vacum tubing.

Whoops caught by the bad words filter sorry!

bravo. yes i know they are different pipes but if the vehilce is petrol then it will work off vacum as with a diesel you dont get vacum. so it may have a different pipe set up but will defo work on the same principal.

for your information the car will stall if the pipe is broken as this will let air out of the inlet after it has gone through the maf. this leak will be around the brake servo pipe area and will be the reason for the solid brake pedal

take a pic of your engine bay for me. a few shots with out the cover and i will;point out what you need to check !

this was a problem on the old ibiza and can happen on newer cars as well. not a common common thing butyou never know. now with age it might become this.

when you take you car to a dealer they usually plug it in sit down with a coffee and do nothing. just see what the computer says. after this if they cant find it they will suggest things but they dont normally look, it might be this, it might be that. thats all they are good for.

i am a trained mechanic and you could call it old school. i use computers but i try and find faults my self rather than rely on what a limited programmed ecu is TRYING to say


happy to help

 

[benditchburn]

Cheers Mr D and all

I wish I'd read this earlier, but I was tied up with the snow.

She called them up today to book it in and the workshop manager actually said, "well it seems we can't fix it after two goes, so you might as well take it to another dealer". I mean what planet do these folk live on, especially after we spent £400 trying to fix it so far. Anyway she stood her ground and insisted they looked at it and its booked to go in for 8 tomorrow. With the snow and work I wont be with it when it goes to the garage and I really wanted to chat to this guy face to face, but I will have to call him and 'have a chat' with him. I feel pretty well for armed now after your advice , and if he won't fix it for the price of the pipe, I will wave SEAT customer services under his nose and if that don't work I'll bring it home and take you up on your kind offer and have a shot a replacing it myself or getting it to someone different as you suggest.

I get the feeling i owe you all a pint!

Cheers

Ben

 

[mr_D]

yay beer tokens

 

[DEAN0]

She called them up today to book it in and the workshop manager actually said, "well it seems we can't fix it after two goes, so you might as well take it to another dealer". I mean what planet do these folk live on, especially after we spent £400 trying to fix it so far.

I would be making a little suggestion about contacting trading standards. You have paid for a job to be done and it has not been done.

Anyone can keep replacing parts until the problem goes away - what you are paying a dealer for is the knowledge and experience to replace ONLY what is needed.

In this case they have failed completely and you are out of pocket

 

[benditchburn]

Well , we got there in the end and a big thanks to all who helped.

I spoke to the dealership today and forearmed with your advice I put them on the right path and lo and behold - a split brake servo hose. Which they are going to replace for free - after some light threats and arm twisting.

So now the garage think i am some kind of ninja mechanic genius, as does my girlfriend, when in fact it was down to you guys - the real ninja diagnosis high masters. So once again big thanks.

I take the point about trading standards and the dealership have been ridiculously poor, so I will mull over if and how I take it further. At the end of the day not fixing the brakes twice on the trot could have led to a bad accident and I don't want that happening to anyone else. Money wise, so far she has paid for a new temp sensor, new coolant, a diagnosis and a new manifold sensor - all money we could have really used elsewhere. I guess if we are keeping the motor all those things come in handy in the end, but I suspect that they only showed up on the fault log because of the vac problem or were barley showing up and they were clutching at straws and they didn't really need replacing. I don't know if anyone can improve on that theory.

Anyway if anyone who helped is in Edinburgh or North Yorkshire, drop me an email and we can go for a pint for you to claim your beer tokens; its [email protected].

You guys have been great and its warms the spirit to know there are a few like minded souls who have a brain and are happy to help folk in need. Big thumbs up and cheers again

Moral of the story - even if you are busy, there is two foot of snow on the roads and your working away - don't let your bird take the car to the garage

PS Mr D, I occasionaly work in Cardiff and have mates in Abergavenny - (where I used to live), so we might get a chance for that pint

 

[mr_D]

nice to hear its sort and we helped.