Analysis of 508/509 spec 0w-20 Longlife oils - which to use etc.?

[Metalogic]

Hi - I'm thinking of doing some extra oil changes for my 2022 Ibiza FR in between the (very long) dealer oil changes service intervals, especially as I do quite a lot of relatively short journeys. So I started looking at which oil to use, obviously for my model Ibiza this needs to be a 0w-20 Longlife oil that meets the VW 508/509 spec and has the green/blue dye in it to avoid warranty issues.

Anyway I came across this detailed technical analysis of such oils: https://ato24.de/en/blog/comparison-0w-20-engine-oils/

One of the things I was thinking would be good to look for is as an oil with a low NOACK score, as that should evaporate off a bit less oil in use, and hopefully lead to less carbon depositing on the valves, which can be a big problem for direct injection engines like the VAG 1.0 TSI. But there are other things to consider about an oil too, such as it's viscosity at different operating temperatures.

Looking at the results, the VW-branded oil (not sure if that Castrol, Mobile or something else these days?) looks okay, as one would expect, but not outstanding. The two of the oils that stand out, at least as far as the NOACK scores look to be:

Motul Specific 508 00 509 00 0W-20

and

Shell Helix Ultra Professional AV-L 0W-20

With I think the Motul oil looking the most consistently good of the two across all the other tests.

So am thinking of using the Motul Specific oil for my oil changes. The issue, though, is I guess is that you can't give the dealer a 5L can of Motul oil and tell them to use that for when they do an oil change service - or can you?

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[RUM4MO]

The first thing to confirm is that the Motul oil has been assessed and so approved by or on behalf of VW Group - and not just aiming to be fully compliant by virtue of its "design".

Then, if the dealership wanted to be difficult or to protect themselves, they might point out that in a modern workshop, the engine oil is dispensed by a VW Group complaint piece of workshop kit.

Then there the next issue, ie split responsibilities, they supply the labour, drain plug and filter - and you supply the oil, you can probably see where the blame would lie is there was an issue "further down the line".

It might sound like a good plan, but sounds a bit messy too me.

Years ago, a friend used a Ford dealership to service his "in warranty" Escort or Orion, they quoted the wrong oil in the bill, he challenged that and was given the answer that in any busy workshop only one or two "oil types" were held in bulk and the one used in his car was maybe not not as per the Ford dictate but was okay to use, but, when he bought the correct Ford branded oil from their parts department, they were quite willing to change it over FOC - but in that instant that dealership was using an oil that had not left their premises.

I'm interested to hear what others think/write on your issue as I for one am quite happy to use an approved quality 504 spec 5W-30 oil that is to API SP approval as that might help minimise LSPI and provide better engine life in terms of surface wear, a very slightly maybe increase in fuel use being a trade off I'm willing to make as that should make the car even more green than maybe wearing it out quicker by using a "greener" grade of engine oil. I could be wrong though, I understand that.

Edit:- from what I think/know, the coking up of the incoming side of the inlet valves is a result of engine oil mist being circulated back into the inlet air path, and that is a factor of a lack of oil being stripped/dropped out of the crankcase gases, trapping more oil by the separator and/or catch pots should reduce the oil being carried in with the incoming air - and so reduce coking.

Is this really related closely to how much oil is being evaporated in the crankcase?

 

[Metalogic]

About whether the Motul oil is VW approved, the blurb on their website says: "High Performance 100% Synthetic Fuel Economy Engine Oil specially designed for VAG group latest generation engines requiring an approved VW 508 00 509 00 lubricant."

So it sounds like it has been approved by VW, at least. Also:

 

[RUM4MO]

Good, also good to see that it is API SP compliant, the link that you provided is now quite old as it does not show Mobil 1 ESP as being API SP compliant - and it should be now as the 5W-30 is.

Edit:- probably a further stumbling block could be that VW Group UK does not know much about Motul - but that is just a guess as they should stand by what VW Group AG has issued approval for.

 

[Metalogic]

Edit:- probably a further stumbling block could be that VW Group UK does not know much about Motul - but that is just a guess as they should stand by what VW Group AG has issued approval for.

Well I guess there's always the Shell Helix Ultra Professional AV-L 0W-20, that also seemed to do well, is VW approved and any garage will have heard of Shell! The Motul oil looks better, though.

 

[RobT]

Quantum Platinum Longlife IV 0W20 VW508/509- the green stuff - £45 for 5L and change it yearly. Job done.

 

[Metalogic]

Quantum Platinum Longlife IV 0W20 VW508/509- the green stuff - £45 for 5L and change it yearly. Job done.

Yeah, I know that's the "official" oil, but there are others (such as the Motul Specific one), that may actually be better oils, but I'm probably just over thinking it! I'd definitely use the OEM VW Oil Filter (part no. Part number: 04E115561H), though, and replace the sump plug washer.

 

[RobT]

Maybe a bit of over-thinking going on LOL although great to look into these things. I dont want to sound condescending but these are not F1 engines, and not even especially stressed road car engines. I've always thought that Volkswagen and its engineers probably know more about this stuff than I do, so for a normal road car in normal general use, as intended, OEM suggestions are probably not far of the mark. What concerns me is when 'experts' in dealerships dont follow OEM guidence, as is sadly all too common now, so I'll buy product from reputable sources and do the work myself thanks.

A little story about buying from reputable sources also, that may not always be the cheapest. I run a couple of racing cars with highly tuned Suzuki Hayabusa engines in them. One is 270hp from only 1440cc atmo, on pump fuel, so is in a fairly decent state of tune. A few years ago I bought what I thought was a genuine Suzuki starter motor solenoid off ebay. Anyhow, it melted internally, which kept the starter motor on after starting, and due to the noise of the engine you couldnt hear it still running. The starter motor rapidly drained the lithium starter battery causing it to overheat and start to catch fire. The starter motor then burnt itself out. The whole car could have been lost for the sake of a £50 part. So....theres a lot to be said for OEM bought from proper vendors.

 

[Metalogic]

Maybe a bit of over-thinking going on LOL although great to look into these things. I dont want to sound condescending but these are not F1 engines, and not even especially stressed road car engines. I've always thought that Volkswagen and its engineers probably know more about this stuff than I do, so for a normal road car in normal general use, as intended, OEM suggestions are probably not far of the mark.

Sure, they're not F1 engines, but with direct injection, turbo charging and computer-controlled engine management are certainly more sophisticated beasts than the lumps they used to put into small cars of old. Also VW have managed to design the engine in such a way that it is inevitable that the valves will gunk up with heavy carbon deposits eventually, so they're not infallible

Not that running a different oil will prevent this, though it might slightly reduce the rate of carbon build-up and/or reduce engine wear a little.

What concerns me is when 'experts' in dealerships dont follow OEM guidence, as is sadly all too common now, so I'll buy product from reputable sources and do the work myself thanks.

Am pretty sure they don't always follow the official guidance on torque values when doing up nuts for starters...

 

[RobT]

Anyone on here had issues with carbon build up on intake track and valves on the small TSIs? I was aware that this could be an issue on DI engines as there's no longer any intake fuel to clean the system but I'm not familiar how common this is, and if any particular driving habits accelerate the issue.

I guess if you have the issue its just a case of take the head off and give it a good clean.

 

[RUM4MO]

Doesn't even need the cylinder head taken off, just drop the coolant and remove the inlet manifold - and have a look into the inlet ports, if looking very nasty then a good blast out with walnut shells seems to be the fix.
As these cars are turbo charged, it might not show up very quickly especially if you don't demand/use max power a lot. It seems to be the atmos FSI engines that you start to notice the drop off in power sooner.
I'm making a case in my head for removing the inlet manifold on my wife's 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI, ie it has still got its G13 coolant in it, so I should change that to G12evo, plus these 1.2TSI and 1.4TSI were unfortunate enough to have been built by Skoda engine plants - and at least for a period in time, the torque setting on the robotic tooling covering the bolting on the High Pressure fuel rail - was wrong, and that has cost a few owners a chunk of money to fix, so I'll be checking that while the inlet manifold is off - and obviously look at nd take pictures of the inlet ports wrt coking up.

Some of the 2.0TSI engines were fitted with extra port injection, so they will not suffer so much or maybe not at all.

 

[Metalogic]

Anyone on here had issues with carbon build up on intake track and valves on the small TSIs? I was aware that this could be an issue on DI engines as there's no longer any intake fuel to clean the system but I'm not familiar how common this is, and if any particular driving habits accelerate the issue.

I guess if you have the issue its just a case of take the head off and give it a good clean.

I don't think I have this issue myself yet, the car has only done a little over 20,000 miles, but any direct injection car which doesn't have extra port injection to spray fuel over the valves will eventually have this issue, though hopefully not until 50,000 miles+.

 

[Metalogic]

Doesn't even need the cylinder head taken off, just drop the coolant and remove the inlet manifold - and have a look into the inlet ports, if looking very nasty then a good blast out with walnut shells seems to be the fix.

Yeah, but taking the car in somewhere to get the inlet blasted with walnut shells can be fairly pricey, (though worth doing if the valves are really gunked with carbon).

As an example, this place near me is quoting a minimum of £450+ VAT for walnut blasting and new injector seals for the 2.0TFSi engine: https://akperformance-tuning.co.uk/walnut-blasting/

As these cars are turbo charged, it might not show up very quickly especially if you don't demand/use max power a lot. It seems to be the atmos FSI engines that you start to notice the drop off in power sooner.

I'd actually read that the carbon build-up can actually be worse with turbo-engined direct injection engines, as more oil vapour etc. can be forced into the pistons, though perhaps as there's more power available you might not notice the drop-off so soon.

I'm making a case in my head for removing the inlet manifold on my wife's 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI, ie it has still got its G13 coolant in it, so I should change that to G12evo, plus these 1.2TSI and 1.4TSI were unfortunate enough to have been built by Skoda engine plants - and at least for a period in time, the torque setting on the robotic tooling covering the bolting on the High Pressure fuel rail - was wrong, and that has cost a few owners a chunk of money to fix,

Oops!

so I'll be checking that while the inlet manifold is off - and obviously look at nd take pictures of the inlet ports wrt coking up.

Some of the 2.0TSI engines were fitted with extra port injection, so they will not suffer so much or maybe not at all.

I don't think it's an issue if there's also port injection, especially if using a fuel with cleaning additives (e.g. Shell V-Power), the regular spraying of fuel over the valves should prevent carbon build-up.