Custom remap (stage 1) plus "???"

[Damo H]

@Damo H Someone on this forum (and I think it was you) mentioned somewhere there is a difference between the ECU's of I think 4Drive (ST) and FWD Cupra's. I can't find that post anymore, but I would realy like to know what the difference is. Is it pure in hardware, or in the program on it, or in the used data? Will it make a difference in the way a stage 1 remap should be programmed, or in the result that can be achieved?

Yes there are different ECU manufacturers (Siemens is one manufacturer I forget the others, Fujitsu maybe) and the Estate cars all have a different one for some reason. Makes sense as its a 4Drive, but not sure why the Golf R and Golf R estate have different ones.

No difference in ECU

Sorry but not only are the make of ECU's different, but how they store the information is different. Not sure why VAG use different manufacturers, probably cost. You'd also expect the way they work to be the same even, if made by different companies, but how they store the info is different.

The ECU's are also different based on market as well. So for example I recently had chance to see that the Australian S3 ECU software being worked on by Racingline, as it is different to the European ones.

 

[CupraRST]

Yes there are different ECU manufacturers (Siemens is one manufacturer I forget the others, Fujitsu maybe) and the Estate cars all have a different one for some reason. Makes sense as its a 4Drive, but not sure why the Golf R and Golf R estate have different ones.

Sorry but not only are the make of ECU's different, but how they store the information is different. Not sure why VAG use different manufacturers, probably cost. You'd also expect the way they work to be the same even, if made by different companies, but how they store the info is different.

The ECU's are also different based on market as well. So for example I recently had chance to see that the Australian S3 ECU software being worked on by Racingline, as it is different to the European ones.

If I understand you correctly, the ECU in the Cupra ST models (not only the 4Drives?) is not only different from the hatchbacks, but also different from the Golf R an Golf R Estate (and maybe also the Audi S3)? Is that for the entire Mk3 serie models?

Are there differences between UK versions and versions for other European countries?
I expect (hope) that the VAG tuners are familiar with the differences....... I don't want to get into problems.

 

[Bouloama]

A known tuner does know what to do. If they don't have experience with a certain ecu, I would expect that they are not just go out and tune it...

Give a call to JD in NL and discuss you questions. mark would be able to help you out properly

 

[Damo H]

If I understand you correctly, the ECU in the Cupra ST models (not only the 4Drives?) is not only different from the hatchbacks, but also different from the Golf R an Golf R Estate (and maybe also the Audi S3)? Is that for the entire Mk3 serie models?

Are there differences between UK versions and versions for other European countries?
I expect (hope) that the VAG tuners are familiar with the differences....... I don't want to get into problems.

I would of expected the Golf R to have a different ECU to a Cupra based on the fact it has different loads and sensors to deal with from the 4WD system compared to a 2WD system. That is just an educated guess though.
That is not to say they don’t have the same power but there would be different calibrations as the load on the turbo would be greater on the heavier 4WD R.

However in the curious case as to why my particular stage 1 car was down on power, it came to the ECU being different.

The ECU itself on the estate Golf R and 4Drive Cupra ST appear to be different to the hatchbacks. I was first told this by Racingline, however I've heard it since from someone completely different.

They have a Stage 3 4drive and came across issues with a tuner/turbo supplier when trying to map the car. He ended up having the map taken off and going to a more experience company (not that the first were amateurs) to have it remapped again. Turns out the ECU was not one they’ve seen before. But then how many people map their ST 4drives/R Estates.

So yes the pre PPF EVU on the ST’s is different to the hatch.

As for the other questions, all I can confirm is that an S3 has different engine software in Australia to a European one. And that just because both cars are Cupra 300’s, depending on when they were built, similar to the tyres, you may find they have ECU’s made by different companies. Although these ECUs will plug into the same harnesses and in theory send the same signals, how they work internally can be completely different. Best way I can explain it is, you could have Spotify on a Windows PC playing the same Queen song as a an Apple Mac running iTunes. Same result, but different software.

Now all of the above is just from my own experience and observations. I’m not some ECU expert or anything.

 

[CupraRST]

I would of expected the Golf R to have a different ECU to a Cupra based on the fact it has different loads and sensors to deal with from the 4WD system compared to a 2WD system. That is just an educated guess though.
That is not to say they don’t have the same power but there would be different calibrations as the load on the turbo would be greater on the heavier 4WD R.

However in the curious case as to why my particular stage 1 car was down on power, it came to the ECU being different.

The ECU itself on the estate Golf R and 4Drive Cupra ST appear to be different to the hatchbacks. I was first told this by Racingline, however I've heard it since from someone completely different.

They have a Stage 3 4drive and came across issues with a tuner/turbo supplier when trying to map the car. He ended up having the map taken off and going to a more experience company (not that the first were amateurs) to have it remapped again. Turns out the ECU was not one they’ve seen before. But then how many people map their ST 4drives/R Estates.

So yes the pre PPF EVU on the ST’s is different to the hatch.

As for the other questions, all I can confirm is that an S3 has different engine software in Australia to a European one. And that just because both cars are Cupra 300’s, depending on when they were built, similar to the tyres, you may find they have ECU’s made by different companies. Although these ECUs will plug into the same harnesses and in theory send the same signals, how they work internally can be completely different. Best way I can explain it is, you could have Spotify on a Windows PC playing the same Queen song as a an Apple Mac running iTunes. Same result, but different software.

Now all of the above is just from my own experience and observations. I’m not some ECU expert or anything.

Thank you very much @Damo H for your very informative explanation about the different ECU's. I think this is not only new for me, but for most of us! Looking at your adventure, sometimes even tuners are surprised. I wonder if you would just drop in a basic stage 1 tune without rolling on the dyno, will you even notice the missing power? Your Carbon Edition is okay now, are you satisfied with the result?

 

[CupraRST]

A known tuner does know what to do. If they don't have experience with a certain ecu, I would expect that they are not just go out and tune it...

Give a call to JD in NL and discuss you questions. mark would be able to help you out properly

I will ask Mark @JD Engineering about it. He was already very helpfull with making a tuning plan, as written in my opening post of this thread.
Not quite sure yet about when to do the tune, because with that I'm throwing away a couple of years warranty (at least on the engin, DSG and entire drive train. Probably on the brakes too. How risky will it be?

 

[Damo H]

Thank you very much @Damo H for your very informative explanation about the different ECU's. I think this is not only new for me, but for most of us! Looking at your adventure, sometimes even tuners are surprised. I wonder if you would just drop in a basic stage 1 tune without rolling on the dyno, will you even notice the missing power? Your Carbon Edition is okay now, are you satisfied with the result?

This is the thing, a lot of people with the Stage 1 tune on the R estates apparently come from countries where if they change something like the map, they have to get all sorts of approval. So they don’t run it on a Dyno. So it feels fast. My stage 1 always did.

The only suspicions I had my car was not necessarily that quick before the Dyno was an Nee Merc AMG35 leaving a gap on a blast up a slip road. When even if his was stage I should of kept up. My torque was really really good, it was just the top end.

It was never slow, but now it goes much better to the red line. I fancy stage 2 just to get more top end again and have a flatter torque curve. But I want the intercooler first.

 

[CupraRST]

This is the thing, a lot of people with the Stage 1 tune on the R estates apparently come from countries where if they change something like the map, they have to get all sorts of approval. So they don’t run it on a Dyno. So it feels fast. My stage 1 always did.

The only suspicions I had my car was not necessarily that quick before the Dyno was an Nee Merc AMG35 leaving a gap on a blast up a slip road. When even if his was stage I should of kept up. My torque was really really good, it was just the top end.


It was never slow, but now it goes much better to the red line. I fancy stage 2 just to get more top end again and have a flatter torque curve. But I want the intercooler first.

I think you are right, you can only tell if a tune delivers well, if you can compare. On the road (or track) with other cars, or on the dyno.

I plan to dyno first, completely stock. Then again after modifying the intake plus K&N panel filter - Racingline hose - Racingline inlet elbow - GFB DV+. Then again after the custom stage 1 tune + DSG. Maybe a bit too much, but at least you know what every step brings.

 

[Damo H]

I think you are right, you can only tell if a tune delivers well, if you can compare. On the road (or track) with other cars, or on the dyno.

I plan to dyno first, completely stock. Then again after modifying the intake plus K&N panel filter - Racingline hose - Racingline inlet elbow - GFB DV+. Then again after the custom stage 1 tune + DSG. Maybe a bit too much, but at least you know what every step brings.

Mine made 310bhp with stock ECU, Racingline R600, VAAGSport Hose, VAAGSport Turbo Elbow, VAAGSport Turbo Mufler Delete and VAAGSport Res Delete.

So 14hp over official stock figures.

 

[CupraRST]

Mine made 310bhp with stock ECU, Racingline R600, VAAGSport Hose, VAAGSport Turbo Elbow, VAAGSport Turbo Mufler Delete and VAAGSport Res Delete.

So 14hp over official stock figures.

Ah, good to know. So maybe 10 hp without turbo mufler delete and res delete?

JD Engineering told me that a turbo mufler delete would not bring much if anything with stage 1.

Is a res delete already possible with the 2 GPF filters still installed?

 

[Damo H]

Ah, good to know. So maybe 10 hp without turbo mufler delete and res delete?

JD Engineering told me that a turbo mufler delete would not bring much if anything with stage 1.

Is a res delete already possible with the 2 GPF filters still installed?

My car is not an R ST, its a 2018 Carbon Edition, so no PPF to worry about

 

[CupraRST]

My car is not an R ST, its a 2018 Carbon Edition, so no PPF to worry about

Ouch, stupid me, I should have thought about that.....
But it's a beautiful car, I'm following your thread about it.

The Carbon Edition was never imported in the Netherlands. I was looking after it in Germany, to import it myself. But than the R ST was first shown at the Geneva Auto Show and I decided to wait for that. But waiting for the actual release took another year......
On day one of the release I ordered it (fully specced, but without the pan roof, as planned) and it took 9 weeks before arrival.
Sorry I'm not allowed to post pics yet.

 

[Damo H]

Ouch, stupid me, I should have thought about that.....
But it's a beautiful car, I'm following your thread about it.

The Carbon Edition was never imported in the Netherlands. I was looking after it in Germany, to import it myself. But than the R ST was first shown at the Geneva Auto Show and I decided to wait for that. But waiting for the actual release took another year......
On day one of the release I ordered it (fully specced, but without the pan roof, as planned) and it took 9 weeks before arrival.
Sorry I'm not allowed to post pics yet.

Yeah, didn’t get the R grills, Copper or Carbon spoiler. R grills I sorted, copper wasn’t fussed about. Carbon spoiler is just too much to justify getting so got a lip on order.

 

[CupraRST]

Yeah, didn’t get the R grills, Copper or Carbon spoiler. R grills I sorted, copper wasn’t fussed about. Carbon spoiler is just too much to justify getting so got a lip on order.

I decided in favour of the R ST (compared with the Carbon Edition) because:
- DSG7
- the finetuning by Seat Sport: suspension (negative camber) and shock absorbers (setting) plus steering (setting)
- rear roof spoiler
- the last special edition of the Seat Leon Cupra ST Mk3 (So happy I didn't wait for the Mk4....)
- Alcantara steering wheel
- interior is darker
- special blackness grey color works very well with the copper accents

The OPF/GPF filters can be a problem with tuning above stage 1, but also maybe a plus in the future because stronger polution rules.
I was afraid that the OPG/GPF filters would make remapping more difficult and far less effective, but at least with stage 1 that seems to be just as effective as before.
I don't know if I'm missing something because the normal lights in the side grills are no longer fitted. What are they, fog lights?

All in all I'm very happy with my Cupra R ST, but would I have been quicker with the search for a Carbon Edition I would have been very happy with that too. Most of the Carbon Editions in Germany were with a pano roof (that I did not want). Just as today with the R ST's.

 

[sheriffwoody]

was just curious and was looking at remaps for the 2.0tsi 190 engine and it appears they can go from 190bph up to 260bph is - which is quite a gain!!

also claimed that mpg will increase - how can the economy and mpg increase with a more powerful, faster car?

 

[Zer0]

was just curious and was looking at remaps for the 2.0tsi 190 engine and it appears they can go from 190bph up to 260bph is - which is quite a gain!!

also claimed that mpg will increase - how can the economy and mpg increase with a more powerful, faster car?

These engines are very tuneable, the ones with smaller turbos too. Take the mpg increase with a grain of salt though, doubt there's much in it to be honest, maybe a slight increase of you don't change your driving style. But, with more power comes more responsibility and according to me you care less about mpg with a quicker car since it is more fun.

Hey, I scored a 10.78s 100-200 km/h today after adding some E85 and tweaking my map 6 a little. Maybe 10.5s with my summer wheels.

 

[CupraRST]

These engines are very tuneable, the ones with smaller turbos too. Take the mpg increase with a grain of salt though, doubt there's much in it to be honest, maybe a slight increase of you don't change your driving style. But, with more power comes more responsibility and according to me you care less about mpg with a quicker car since it is more fun.

Hey, I scored a 10.78s 100-200 km/h today after adding some E85 and tweaking my map 6 a little. Maybe 10.5s with my summer wheels.

View attachment 13376

That is a quick time! With E85 you're adding alcohol. With tweaking your map 6 in JB4 you raised the boost?
What is your normal time, without adding E85, with pure RON 98?

 

[Zer0]

That is a quick time! With E85 you're adding alcohol. With tweaking your map 6 in JB4 you raised the boost?
What is your normal time, without adding E85, with pure RON 98?

Yes adding E85 for an E25 mix of E85 and 98 fuel. Can't recall the changes right now but could bump up boost a little past 5000. Not a huge difference from before but better than before E85, I ran 11.05s as best before but I rarely test 100-200 km/h.

Also new records, 80-120 km/s in 2.47s and 70-120 km/s in 3.00s. Both times about 0.2s less than before.

Also did one mph test: 30-70 mph in 3.39s.

Not bad for a heavy (compared to fwd cupra) 4wd.

 

[Butty]

also claimed that mpg will increase - how can the economy and mpg increase with a more powerful, faster car?

Driving in the same style as before modding normally makes use of the same power and torque but at lower revs.
Lower revs = less fuel used.
However the temptation is to drive in a different sytle which results in no benefit.
I had a Scooby that went from std 265 to 400 hp but consumption improved by 2 mpg.

 

[CupraRST]

Have people in this forum, having done a stage 1 tune, experienced any problems with reliability or technical failures caused by the tune?

And if so, did it give problems with warranty, because that was refused because of being tuned?