First rolling road figures, low output? Fuelling probs?

[8bit]

Had my mk1 unmapped LCR on the rollers at the weekend. As you can see from the printouts below my car made 176bhp at the wheels (this dyno doesn't give flywheel figures). The operator (who I'm told is very good) said this sort of output is about right for an unmapped LCR225, reckons they lose about 60bhp in the drivetrain. This seems a bit much to me (but I'm no expert) and Willie reckoned in another thread that this was a bit low too.

Drka-drka's car is mapped (or the seller told him it was) and he made 202 at the wheels which Willie reckons is a healthy figure for an unmapped car, so if that's correct then there's something wrong with mine. I had it logged by djhorace just after I got it when it was still 100% standard and it showed about 181g/s which works out about 226 or 231bhp depending on whether you multiply by 1.25 or 1.275 so I figured back then that it was probably in good nick for a standard car. Since then I've done the mods in my sig and the car certainly doesn't feel any worse, if anything slightly better for the mods. Fuel is always Shell V-Power.

Last thing is this - the operator said that on the Air Fuel Ratio graph that it should get slightly richer towards the right hand side and on drka-drka's car that was right enough. On mine it didn't and also the injector duty on mine doesn't go above 76%. He said this could indicate a potential fuelling issue, in his opinion likely to be caused by a MAF failing. Any opinions on this? Happy enough to get a new one but wanted to get opinions before I go spending the money?

Anyway here's my graphs, if anyone's got any other insight then I'm up for hearing about it

 

[psycho6285]

yeah that seems a bit low. Mine standard made 222bhp at fly at Awesome and 202 and the wheels
this was the same when i took it to P-Tourqe just before it got remapped.

I would say there is something up mate.

 

[Steely]

anything up to 15% is usually expected as an average on anything FWD so rule of thumb about 33-34bhp max

so a little under

 

[8bit]

Hmm ok, well 15% of 225 is about 34, so looks like I'm showing about 26bhp down on what it should be.

What about the fuelling and boost figures? Is 12-13psi about right for an unmapped LCR? If there is something amiss here could it be caused by a MAF on its' way out?

 

[Joeb]

i turned off my map a few days ago.

13/14 psi is the same on my LCR

 

[8bit]

i turned off my map a few days ago.

13/14 psi is the same on my LCR

OK, just out of interest, how much boost were you seeing before you switched the map off? If that's about right then looks like I can rule out a boost leak I'd have thought, pointing more towards a MAF on the way out?

Could really do with RobDon or Bill casting their eye over this one!

 

[Joeb]

with the map on...


peaks 22
Holds 20

 

[8bit]

Nice one, cheers. I really want a remap now First better get the car sorted so I've posted in the VAGCOM help requests section and will get a new MAF.

THanks so far, I'll update the thread once I get somewhere.

 

[8bit]

Right, got some logs done today (huge thanks to Al) with both my MAF and with Willie's MAF (huge thanks to Willie also). Did blocks 002, 020, 031 and 115. Had to do two logs with each MAF, hopefully this will shed some light on things. First up, logs with my MAF:

Saturday	4	September	2010	15:22:06:65413	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0 (x64)	Data version: 20100630									
1ML 906 032 A		1.8l R4/5VT         0002													
															
	Group A:	002				Group B:	020				Group C:	115			
		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME					TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar
	0.61	1840	95.5	8.16	36.58	0.03	0	0	0	0	0.29	1840	92.5	1600	1200
	12.67	720	20.3	1.7	3.03	12.97	0	0	0	0	12.38	760	20.3	990	1000
	13.57	1200	15	1.36	3.28	13.88	0	0	0	0	13.27	960	17.3	990	1000
	14.49	1120	15	1.7	3.39	14.78	0	0	0	0	14.17	1120	15	990	1000
	15.38	1200	75.9	7.48	18.56	15.68	0	0	0	0	15.08	1120	77.4	1430	990
	16.3	1440	83.5	8.16	24.92	16.59	0	0	0	0	15.99	1360	80.5	1500	1060
	17.21	1720	93.2	8.5	31.44	17.5	0	0	0	0	16.9	1600	91.7	1660	1160
	18.11	2000	103.8	9.86	42.42	18.41	0	0	0	0	17.81	1880	99.2	1820	1270
	19.01	2360	130.1	12.24	64.22	19.32	0	0	0	0	18.7	2200	121.1	1940	1460
	19.92	2800	161.7	15.64	93.86	20.22	0	0	0	0	19.62	2640	150.4	1800	1820
	20.83	3280	154.9	14.28	98.86	21.13	0	0	0	0	20.52	3120	159.4	1810	1880
	21.73	3760	156.4	14.28	110	22.03	0	0	0	0	21.43	3600	154.9	1820	1840
	22.94	4400	155.6	14.62	132	23.24	0	0	0	0	22.68	4080	155.6	1810	1840
	23.84	4840	152.6	13.94	143.69	24.15	0	0	0	0	23.54	4680	154.1	1820	1790
	24.75	5280	154.9	14.28	156.53	25.05	0	0	0	0	24.45	5120	153.4	1840	1810
	25.65	5680	155.6	14.62	173.97	25.96	0	0	0	0	25.35	5520	154.9	1910	1870
	26.56	6080	154.1	14.62	180.94	26.87	0	0	0	0	26.25	5960	157.9	1910	1860
	27.47	6440	147.4	13.6	181.25	27.76	0	0	0	0	27.17	6280	151.1	1800	1850
	28.38	6720	145.9	13.94	168.56	28.68	0	0	0	0	28.08	6640	138.3	1690	1760
	29.27	5760	14.3	1.7	9.64	29.57	0	0	0	0	28.98	6240	13.5	990	1300
	30.18	4520	11.3	0	9.5	30.48	0	0	0	0	29.88	4960	14.3	990	1070
	31.07	3240	12.8	0	8.11	31.39	0	0	0	0	30.78	3640	12	990	1040
	31.98	2120	15	0	6.22	32.29	0	0	0	0	31.69	2480	13.5	990	1030
	32.88	1280	16.5	1.36	4.11	33.19	0	0	0	0	32.58	1480	14.3	990	1020
	33.8	1480	14.3	1.7	4.03	34.1	0	0	0	0	33.49	1200	15	990	1010
	34.7	2320	55.6	5.44	27.81	35.01	0	0	0	0	34.4	2320	50.4	990	1000
	35.61	2360	75.2	7.14	36.94	35.91	0	0	0	0	35.31	2360	69.9	1130	1060
	36.52	2360	63.2	5.1	21.5	36.82	0	0	0	0	36.21	2360	81.2	1240	1210

Saturday	4	September	2010	15:20:09:65413	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0 (x64)	Data version: 20100630									
1ML 906 032 A		1.8l R4/5VT         0002													
															
	Group A:	010				Group B:	031				Group C:	115			
		RPM	Load	Load	Ign. Timing		Lambda Factor	Lambda Factor	Bin. Bits	Bin. Bits		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME					TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 %	 °BTDC	STAMP					STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar
	0.32	3480	49.6	11.4	33.8	0.61	0.94	1	        	        	0.03	3440	97.7	1290	1430
	36.81	1120	15.8	3.9	-8.3	36.22	0.96	0.95	        	        	36.51	800	19.5	990	990
	37.72	1720	15.8	5.5	-6.8	37.11	1.06	0.95	        	        	37.42	1760	15.8	990	990
	38.93	1640	13.5	5.1	-7.5	38.38	0.84	1.05	        	        	38.63	1680	13.5	990	1000
	39.83	1440	13.5	4.7	-8.3	39.22	1.99	1.05	        	        	39.52	1520	13.5	990	1000
	40.73	1200	14.3	4.3	-8.3	40.12	1.99	1.05	        	        	40.44	1280	14.3	990	1000
	41.64	1080	16.5	4.3	9	41.04	1.99	0.95	        	        	41.33	1120	15.8	990	1000
	42.54	1240	77.4	58.8	3	41.94	1.45	0.95	        	        	42.24	1200	76.7	1440	990
	43.46	1520	85.7	69	13.5	42.85	0.93	0.95	        	        	43.15	1400	82.7	1560	1080
	44.36	1800	94.7	81.6	13.5	43.75	0.95	0.95	        	        	44.05	1680	92.5	1730	1180
	45.27	2120	113.5	92.5	11.3	44.66	0.96	0.95	        	        	44.95	2000	104.5	1890	1300
	46.17	2560	139.8	100	10.5	45.57	0.96	0.95	        	        	45.86	2400	130.1	1840	1580
	47.08	3040	163.2	100	6.8	46.46	0.96	0.95	        	        	46.77	2880	164.7	1810	1960
	47.98	3560	156.4	100	15	47.38	0.95	0.95	        	        	47.68	3360	157.1	1830	1840
	48.89	4040	154.9	100	16.5	48.28	0.96	0.95	        	        	48.58	3880	158.6	1820	1840
	49.79	4520	152.6	100	18.8	49.19	0.95	0.95	        	        	49.49	4360	155.6	1820	1800
	50.7	4960	152.6	100	16.5	50.09	0.95	0.95	        	        	50.4	4800	155.6	1810	1800
	51.6	5360	154.9	100	16.5	51	0.95	0.95	        	        	51.3	5240	149.6	1870	1840
	52.51	5800	161.7	100	16.5	51.9	0.95	0.95	        	        	52.22	5680	161.7	1920	1900
	53.41	6160	160.2	100	17.3	52.81	0.95	0.95	        	        	53.11	6040	157.9	1890	1850
	54.33	6480	141.4	100	21.8	53.72	0.94	0.95	        	        	54.02	6360	157.9	1790	1800
	55.22	6720	128.6	100	24	54.63	0.95	0.95	        	        	54.92	6640	137.6	1680	1740
	56.13	5440	14.3	10.6	4.5	55.54	0.79	1	        	        	55.83	5920	14.3	990	1200

And these logs were with Willie's MAF:

Saturday	4	September	2010	14:44:43:65413	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0 (x64)	Data version: 20100630									
1ML 906 032 A		1.8l R4/5VT         0002													
															
	Group A:	2				Group B:	20				Group C:	115			
		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME					TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar
	473.15	1240	13.5	0	3.33	473.44	0	0	0	0	472.84	1240	13.5	990	1000
	474.06	1240	19.5	3.4	7.25	474.65	0	0	0	0	473.75	1200	13.5	990	1000
	475.27	1480	83.5	7.82	26.19	475.57	0	0	0	0	474.96	1400	81.2	1570	1040
	476.16	1760	93.2	8.84	33.81	476.47	0	0	0	0	475.87	1680	91	1690	1140
	477.08	2080	107.5	10.2	47.47	477.37	0	0	0	0	476.77	1960	100.8	1860	1270
	477.98	2480	134.6	12.58	70.06	478.28	0	0	0	0	477.67	2320	126.3	1900	1510
	478.89	2960	169.2	15.98	95.72	479.19	0	0	0	0	478.58	2800	160.9	1810	1910
	479.79	3440	159.4	14.62	102.44	480.09	0	0	0	0	479.49	3280	161.7	1820	1850
	480.7	3920	159.4	14.28	121.72	481	0	0	0	0	480.4	3800	160.2	1840	1850
	481.6	4400	156.4	14.28	133.83	481.9	0	0	0	0	481.3	4240	157.1	1830	1810
	482.51	4880	154.9	13.94	141.44	482.82	0	0	0	0	482.21	4720	154.9	1820	1840
	483.41	5280	160.9	14.62	159.14	483.71	0	0	0	0	483.11	5160	153.4	1840	1810
	484.32	5680	164.7	14.96	178.89	484.62	0	0	0	0	484.02	5560	156.4	1920	1890
	485.23	6080	159.4	14.62	183.64	485.53	0	0	0	0	484.92	5920	164.7	1920	1880
	486.13	6400	158.6	14.62	182.36	486.44	0	0	0	0	485.84	6280	155.6	1820	1910
	487.04	6680	142.1	13.26	173.61	487.34	0	0	0	0	486.73	6600	139.8	1710	1810
	487.95	5760	14.3	1.7	9.69	488.24	0	0	0	0	487.65	6320	12	990	1390
	488.84	4600	14.3	0	11.36	489.14	0	0	0	0	488.54	5000	14.3	990	1060
	489.76	3280	12.8	0	8.69	490.04	0	0	0	0	489.45	3680	12	990	1040
	490.66	2160	14.3	0	6.06	490.95	0	0	0	0	490.36	2520	13.5	990	1020

Saturday	4	September	2010	14:58:15:65413	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0 (x64)	Data version: 20100630									
1ML 906 032 A		1.8l R4/5VT         0002													
															
	Group A:	010				Group B:	031				Group C:	115			
		RPM	Load	Load	Ign. Timing		Lambda Factor	Lambda Factor	Bin. Bits	Bin. Bits		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME					TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 %	 °BTDC	STAMP					STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar
	109.95	1720	13.5	5.5	-6.8	110.23	1.99	1.05	        	        	110.53	1720	14.3	990	1000
	110.85	1680	13.5	5.1	-7.5	111.14	1.99	1.05	        	        	111.44	1640	13.5	990	1000
	111.74	1600	13.5	5.1	-7.5	112.04	1.99	1.05	        	        	112.34	1520	13.5	990	1000
	112.65	1480	13.5	4.7	-7.5	112.95	1.99	1.05	        	        	113.25	1320	13.5	990	1000
	113.55	1280	13.5	4.3	-8.3	113.85	1.99	1.05	        	        	114.15	1200	13.5	990	1000
	114.46	1160	14.3	4.7	-5.3	114.76	1.99	0.95	        	        	115.06	1200	21.8	990	990
	115.36	1240	78.9	58	12	115.67	0.84	0.95	        	        	115.97	1360	81.2	1510	1040
	116.28	1440	83.5	66.7	12.8	116.57	0.97	0.95	        	        	116.87	1640	90.2	1680	1140
	117.18	1720	93.2	78.8	12.8	117.48	0.96	0.95	        	        	117.78	1960	100.8	1850	1270
	118.08	2080	108.3	91.4	11.3	118.39	0.96	0.95	        	        	118.69	2320	127.8	1890	1510
	118.99	2480	136.8	98.8	10.5	119.29	0.98	0.95	        	        	119.59	2760	160.9	1800	1900
	119.9	2960	169.9	100	3.8	120.2	0.94	0.95	        	        	120.5	3280	160.9	1820	1860
	120.8	3440	159.4	100	12	121.1	0.96	0.95	        	        	121.4	3760	158.6	1830	1830
	121.71	3920	160.9	100	14.3	122.01	0.96	0.95	        	        	122.31	4240	157.9	1820	1840
	122.61	4400	159.4	100	17.3	122.92	0.95	0.95	        	        	123.22	4720	152.6	1810	1830
	123.52	4880	155.6	100	15.8	123.82	0.95	0.95	        	        	124.44	5160	158.6	1850	1800
	124.73	5400	163.9	100	15	125.03	0.98	0.95	        	        	125.33	5680	159.4	1920	1890
	125.63	5800	160.9	100	15.8	125.93	0.94	0.95	        	        	126.23	6040	156.4	1880	1880
	126.54	6200	157.9	99.6	17.3	126.84	0.94	0.95	        	        	127.14	6400	151.1	1790	1860
	127.44	6480	150.4	99.6	19.5	127.74	0.95	0.95	        	        	128.05	6680	142.1	1640	1760
	128.35	6360	12	8.2	8.3	128.66	0.77	0.96	        	        	128.96	5320	14.3	990	1110

I'm no expert but to me it looks like the set taken with Willie's MAF look mostly identical to mine so I wouldn't have thought there was anything wrong with my MAF. The peak g/s reading is very slightly lower tho so maybe this and the bad fuelling curve are very early symptoms of it starting to fail? Or should I be looking at something else?

 

[8bit]

Bump - someone must be able to tell me whether or not I should be worried about that AFR trace surely? Anyone...?

 

[kineticz]

Yeah they look very similar tbh wouldn't have thought your MAF was the culprit.

 

[8bit]

Yeah they look very similar tbh wouldn't have thought your MAF was the culprit.

Doesn't look like it, altho I remembered there was a fault code showing before we started:

19534 - Throttle Control: Airflow at idle too low 
            P3078 - 35-00

Did a search on here for that code and it looks like Scarface had the same thing, he found some more info as to possible causes - "Throttle vavle housing requires cleaning, intake leak, wiring, maf sensor, TP sensor, Throttle control unit, ECM"

Could this be related to my fuelling issue? Can anyone tell me if there even is an issue?

 

[kineticz]

I would say anything (such as that) related to airflow/mix has an impact on fueling yes. Logically.

 

[adam_lincs]

do you need to do the "throttle reset" thing that's in the stickies??

 

[8bit]

@kineticz - yeh I guess that stands to reason, but the plot thickens, more on this in a sec...

@adam lincs - never done that myself, never been done before the car to the best of my knowledge but will see if i can get it done next time i can get access to VAGCOM.

Anyway, read some old threads on AFR and similar last night, turns out you can multiply the Lambda figures from block 31 by 14.7 to get the AFR logged by the sensors in the car. So I did this and graphed them. There are two lambda figures given in that block, not sure which to calculate on (i guess one is Requested and the other is Actual, like boost figures) so each graph (one for each MAF I logged with) has two traces:

Neither of these seem to get much richer over the course of the run, although Willie's MAF does slightly on AFR1 (if this is the relevant one?). There was another LCR there altho I think that one may have been remapped (the new owner was told it was by the previous owner). That one did see AFR drop to about 12.4 or so over the course of the run. Is this "richening up" thing on the LCR normally associated with remapped cars, I wonder? Anyone shed any light on this?

 

[james walker]

you need to be seeing 0.8xx under load... 0.9xx is showing lean not rich iirc..

id be looking at potential leaks in vac lines and cooler pipework

although your boost logs look ok. maf is ok for standard lcr.

your fuelling isnt causing any timing pull at all.

when were your plugs last done... fuel filter also

 

[ibizacupra]

thats very lean...
odd

 

[james walker]

possibly plug related bill?

might be worth whipping them out and inspect the colour on the firing ends

 

[ibizacupra]

the request is lean which is whats odd to me

 

[kineticz]

Would have suspected it to be the MAF, MAP or a vacuum leak? But the MAF has been tested....