TDI Tuning advice, what power to expect

[scruffydubber]

Hello

This is the setup I'm planning for my polo 9N TDI (100bhp standard).
Can anyone see any problems with this setup?
What sort of power and torque can I expect?
And what will be the weak link in more power or reliability?

100PD engine
160PD intake
130PD injectors
130PD turbo
stainless downpipe and exhaust, no cat
Seat sport front intercooler.
Lightened G60 flywheel with uprated clutch.

And a custom remap, when all fitted.

I know this is a Seat forum, but there seems lots of info on here. Thansk for any advice.

 

[MJ]

So you have a 105 tdi pd engine, ATD engine code?
You'll want the inlet manifold off the 130 engine aswell mate, its alot less restrictive than the 105tdi one is and an egr removal pipe (chrisGLT is selling one in the sales section). Some of the pipework will be different i.e the turbo outlet pipe for the 130 turbo.

 

[scruffydubber]

Hi, yes it is a ATD engine code.
Will removing the EGR on this put a fault up? (I can search for that, I'm sure there is plenty of info)

 

[MJ]

Hi, yes it is a ATD engine code.
Will removing the EGR on this put a fault up? (I can search for that, I'm sure there is plenty of info)

Mines been removed and yes it flags up a fault every now and again but its nothing you cant live with or buy a fault code scanner/eraser for about £80ish.

 

[john_tdi]

are u putting a standard 130 unit on?

 

[scruffydubber]

are u putting a standard 130 unit on?

Turbo?

Yes, Although I have considered a Hybrid, But I'm interested to see what power and torque I can get on this setup, with the standard turbo. Then this will halp me make my choice.

Couldn't find the manifold in the forsale section

 

[john_tdi]

i think your looking around the 180bhp mark with that

 

[MJ]

Those would be the gains if it were a straight 130 engine already. Your basicly turning your 100bhp atd lump onto a 130 asz but you'll have to bear in mind that it might not be exact. The pistons and valves, whilst both from PD engines may have slight differencess, the injectors can have different plungers on them, the mechanical pump may need changing to suit, you might need a lift pump installing in the tank if you dont already have one to cope with the extra fuel required, the manifold will need to be changed for the 130, some if not all of the intake pipes may need changed to larger ones etc etc
Theres loads to consider which might mean that even with all the mods it might not even reach 130 with just the bolt on stuff, the remap will be the real test.

 

[john_tdi]

Those would be the gains if it were a straight 130 engine already. Your basicly turning your 100bhp atd lump onto a 130 asz but you'll have to bear in mind that it might not be exact. The pistons and valves, whilst both from PD engines may have slight differencess, the injectors can have different plungers on them, the mechanical pump may need changing to suit, you might need a lift pump installing in the tank if you dont already have one to cope with the extra fuel required, the manifold will need to be changed for the 130, some if not all of the intake pipes may need changed to larger ones etc etc
Theres loads to consider which might mean that even with all the mods it might not even reach 130 with just the bolt on stuff, the remap will be the real test.

he's having it mapped. so it will be over 130. standard 130s mapped get high 170s, so with a fmic, its worth a few more. he's changing the injectors not the nozzles also.

 

[MJ]

The car is not a 130, its a 105, you cant just fit a load of aprts to a "lesser" engine and expect it to be the same, its all conrtolled differently. For instance you could have a pd130 engine and fit a pd160 turbo and it would make no difference, the power would only be gained from how it is controlled through the ecu. If you fit the 130 parts to a 105 engine it wouldnt nessesarily mean its 130bhp, it would have to be mapped to run the 130 bits to make sure it was ok.
All engines have certain power gains from standard.

The 105 typically maps to around 140
The 130 to 170
The 150 to 190
The 160 to 190+

You can only get certain gains in certain engines, there are about 20 different varients of the "1.9tdi pd"
for instance, i'll agree some of the parts are interchangable but it doesnt mean they'll yield instand performance gains, there may also be differences in valve size, piston design, cam design etc etc

In short all i'm saying is dont expect too much from what is done, its all about the fine tuning. personally if i were doin this mod i build the engine from scratch and do it bit by bit to make sure everything followed suit or see if its been acomplised by someone else in the past.

 

[scruffydubber]

Yeah but as said previously I will be getting it mapped, to suit the mods

The only reason the 100 goes to around 140, with a remap is due to the turbo, and then the injector's limiting anymore power

Hence my original question of what would be the weak link in the spec I have, which I suspect is the pd130 turbo, maxing out about 180bhp. Ah and the inlet manifold which you told me about, thanks

From some research, there doesn't seem to be many difference's in the 100pd engine, they use smaller conrod shells, so potentialy these will not take as much torque. But I have read about a few 100pd making over 200bhp with standard internal's. So I'll have to suck it and see with these.
I believe the heads and cam's are the same spec of other pd engine's.

And at this level of tune It's not the engine which is the limiting factor of more power. Although I'm sure headwork would help.

I found this in another thread which was interesting, and backs up what I'm saying.

QUOTE "Allard took a pd100 fabia and just stuck 2nd hand vnt17, pd130 injectors, and an FMIC of their own design, and mapped it to 185bhp. On standard pd100 running gear elsewhere - brakes, N75, ECU, gearbox, etc." QUOTE

I need to look into the boost pipeing. I trial fitted the front mount, and the pipework connected up with the seat cupra PD160 FMIC pipework ok, so should be ok.

 

[MJ]

Its totally possible dont get me wrong but you'll have to run some trail and error tests like running a few different maps, bear in mind that allards have been building race spec engines and fettling with the Pd engines for years. They will have proggressivly developed the map over a few trails, making the odd tweak here and there to achieve the end result, it wont just be a case of bolting on the parts and loading a custom map onto the ecu.

Allards is also the best place to speak to for the intake piping or any technical advice you seek, Alan is a really nice intelligent chap who'll help you out to no end.

One person on here who's running a fabia with crazy power is "devoneutopia" - he has a fabia pd105 and is now pushing 260bhp, however i think he swapped engines for the 130 before he started modding.

 

[john_tdi]

The car is not a 130, its a 105, you cant just fit a load of aprts to a "lesser" engine and expect it to be the same, its all conrtolled differently. For instance you could have a pd130 engine and fit a pd160 turbo and it would make no difference, the power would only be gained from how it is controlled through the ecu. If you fit the 130 parts to a 105 engine it wouldnt nessesarily mean its 130bhp, it would have to be mapped to run the 130 bits to make sure it was ok.
All engines have certain power gains from standard.

The 105 typically maps to around 140
The 130 to 170
The 150 to 190
The 160 to 190+

You can only get certain gains in certain engines, there are about 20 different varients of the "1.9tdi pd"
for instance, i'll agree some of the parts are interchangable but it doesnt mean they'll yield instand performance gains, there may also be differences in valve size, piston design, cam design etc etc

In short all i'm saying is dont expect too much from what is done, its all about the fine tuning. personally if i were doin this mod i build the engine from scratch and do it bit by bit to make sure everything followed suit or see if its been acomplised by someone else in the past.

hes not just bolting 130 parts on though! hes mapping it with a fmic. the cooler on the 105 and 130 are stupidly small.

i wouldnt touch allards, there after sales is shocking, and workmanship. my allard vt2 turbo lasted 6 months wow.

mj: why did you get a allards fmic? dont you have a arl engine?

 

[MJ]

ye i bought it as a full kit as i wanted the pipe work and the standard one was leaking from the turbo pipes from a bodge job carried out by the previous owners. I'd read mixed reviews about upgrading the intercooler but went ahead and was happy with the results.

 

[john_tdi]

cool. was it any bigger than the oe fmic?
from what ive read and been told, the standard fmic is hard to beat.

 

[MJ]

ye its about an inch longer, higher and an inch thicker. Apparently the standard one is good for 300bhp, probably down to the fact that its bloody huge.

 

[jasengine]

Turbo?

Yes, Although I have considered a Hybrid, But I'm interested to see what power and torque I can get on this setup, with the standard turbo. Then this will halp me make my choice.

Couldn't find the manifold in the forsale section

If you can afford it, get a hybrid turbo, you won't regret it

 

[scruffydubber]

If you can afford it, get a hybrid turbo, you won't regret it

I do plan on keeping the car a while, So I think I'll do the bolt on mod's, and the parts i already have, source a manifold and remove the egr, and save for a hybrid.

I'm sure if I don't I will want to further down the line.

Cheers

 

[zedzp]

how far have you gotten with this im planning on doing the pd130 turbo upgrade aswel. i currently have the turbo what pipes would i need changing to make the turbo work and where can i get them from?

 

[kopec56]

If you can afford it, get a hybrid turbo, you won't regret it

may sound a bit thick with this question but hear goes . whats a hybrid turbo ? and could i just put 1 on my car with standard internals , obviously i would change clutch and get a fmic but wud anyfink else need doing ?