Doubt that, If I were a betting man I'd have £5 on the 4wd cars not having the torsion bar, maybe someone can have a look at ETKA ?
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Anti Roll Bars
- Thread starter lordgibbness
- Start date
Doubt that, If I were a betting man I'd have £5 on the 4wd cars not having the torsion bar, maybe someone can have a look at ETKA ?
I wouldn't be betting against you thats for sure; with the format of the rear drive system, incorporating the torsion bar found in the unpowered rear axle setup would be an interested task!
Have I missed something - aren't you confusing anti-roll bars and torsion bars? Even if they do similar jobs, my point is that the 4WD cars' rear ARBs are smaller than the front ARB.
I see your point but can't follow your logic comparing 2wd and 4wd cars
4wd will have more weight over the rear, put it's power down differently, it has a different suspension setup (torsion bars and ARB's etc). At the front end the engines in these 4wd cars are big 6cyl engines that weigh more (s3 excepted)
Comparing Apples and Oranges IMO
4wd will have more weight over the rear, put it's power down differently, it has a different suspension setup (torsion bars and ARB's etc). At the front end the engines in these 4wd cars are big 6cyl engines that weigh more (s3 excepted)
Comparing Apples and Oranges IMO
Mainly just interested in the different setups across the VAG group...
23mm seems to be the largest front ARB, that is used on the Leon, Octavia and Golf. I imagine the LCR ARB size was decreased to 18mm due to the stronger front suspension setup from R32/S3/TT
Forgot to add the TT earlier, so:
Front: 20mm (1.8T) or 21mm (V6)
Rear: 14mm (4WD)
23mm seems to be the largest front ARB, that is used on the Leon, Octavia and Golf. I imagine the LCR ARB size was decreased to 18mm due to the stronger front suspension setup from R32/S3/TT
Forgot to add the TT earlier, so:
Front: 20mm (1.8T) or 21mm (V6)
Rear: 14mm (4WD)
Still collating information from everyone, but it's been really helpful so far!
Advice from most people so far is to up upgrade the LCR rear to 28mm as this decreases most of the body roll (plus a Neuspeed rear ARB is adjustable so can be tweaked too). I've been taking great interest in watching cars corner at speed lately and notice in most cases it is the rear that lifts the most.
Over-stiffening the front might also not be a good idea as I know it isn't optimal to stiffen up the drive axel too much - as on cornering or bumpy roads you can actually lose traction, which obviously isn't a good thing. When I was researching I noticed almost all ARB kits for RWD cars have a smaller bar at the rear for this reason.
On the other hand I don't want a skittish car, with the rear jumping about from an overly stiff rear-end, but all comments so far seem to point to the fact that the LCR is quite an understeery car to begin with and it wouldn't help the cars handling if the front end was stiffend up too much (and since having the GY Asymmetrics fitted on my car - better tyres on rear - has removed any lift-off oversteer anyway).
I am now pretty much swayed towards a 28mm adjustable Neuspeed rear ARB and a smaller front ARB. An upgrade of the front ARB is definately required though as the OEM 18mm bar would be much too small in this combination and the balance wouldn't be right as discussed in the autocross thread that started the debate.
I think it will either be 22mm Neuspeed, 23mm R32, or 25mm Neuspeed, but I would now actually be a little worried that 25mm would be too stiff at the front. I want the right balance front to rear but don't want a skittish rear end and don't want an overly stiff front end that will lose traction accelerating out of slower corners.
Dean at Awesome GTI recommended 22/28 Neuspeed - obviously he sells these, but he did recommend 22 over 25 for the front. Willie recommends 23/28 and has tracked his car a few times with. The autocross thread recommend keeping the bars relatively in sync and found handling issues with the 17/28 setup in a different older VAG car.
Going from 18mm at the front to 22mm, 23mm or 25mm would be an increase of 123%, 167% or 272% respectively, so a 25mm bar would be a MASSIVE increase in stiffness of close to 4x original and so I think the other two bars might be a better option...
Still up in the air, but I think it might be 22 or 23 front and 28mm rear. Anyone who hasn't commented yet, by the way - please feel free to do so!
Advice from most people so far is to up upgrade the LCR rear to 28mm as this decreases most of the body roll (plus a Neuspeed rear ARB is adjustable so can be tweaked too). I've been taking great interest in watching cars corner at speed lately and notice in most cases it is the rear that lifts the most.
Over-stiffening the front might also not be a good idea as I know it isn't optimal to stiffen up the drive axel too much - as on cornering or bumpy roads you can actually lose traction, which obviously isn't a good thing. When I was researching I noticed almost all ARB kits for RWD cars have a smaller bar at the rear for this reason.
On the other hand I don't want a skittish car, with the rear jumping about from an overly stiff rear-end, but all comments so far seem to point to the fact that the LCR is quite an understeery car to begin with and it wouldn't help the cars handling if the front end was stiffend up too much (and since having the GY Asymmetrics fitted on my car - better tyres on rear - has removed any lift-off oversteer anyway).
I am now pretty much swayed towards a 28mm adjustable Neuspeed rear ARB and a smaller front ARB. An upgrade of the front ARB is definately required though as the OEM 18mm bar would be much too small in this combination and the balance wouldn't be right as discussed in the autocross thread that started the debate.
I think it will either be 22mm Neuspeed, 23mm R32, or 25mm Neuspeed, but I would now actually be a little worried that 25mm would be too stiff at the front. I want the right balance front to rear but don't want a skittish rear end and don't want an overly stiff front end that will lose traction accelerating out of slower corners.
Dean at Awesome GTI recommended 22/28 Neuspeed - obviously he sells these, but he did recommend 22 over 25 for the front. Willie recommends 23/28 and has tracked his car a few times with. The autocross thread recommend keeping the bars relatively in sync and found handling issues with the 17/28 setup in a different older VAG car.
Going from 18mm at the front to 22mm, 23mm or 25mm would be an increase of 123%, 167% or 272% respectively, so a 25mm bar would be a MASSIVE increase in stiffness of close to 4x original and so I think the other two bars might be a better option...
Still up in the air, but I think it might be 22 or 23 front and 28mm rear. Anyone who hasn't commented yet, by the way - please feel free to do so!
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I plan to track my car soon( when i get 330mm 2 piece set up)
I have standard shocks and springs, etc but the 25/28 set up
On the road, making progress out of a corner i actually found more grip with more worn tyres than with the OEM set up
Even on bumpy and uneven roads traction is much improved, as on big bumps where on wheel would go lighter and possibly spin it doesnt, the bars seem to equalise it more.
It may just be me?
Also on a track bends are a lot harsher and sharper so surely the set up for fast road to track beast would vary??
I have standard shocks and springs, etc but the 25/28 set up
On the road, making progress out of a corner i actually found more grip with more worn tyres than with the OEM set up
Even on bumpy and uneven roads traction is much improved, as on big bumps where on wheel would go lighter and possibly spin it doesnt, the bars seem to equalise it more.
It may just be me?
Also on a track bends are a lot harsher and sharper so surely the set up for fast road to track beast would vary??
To add a different POV to this, has anyone else with a stiff set up (ie ARB's, strutt braces and uprated suspension) had any ESP probelms? As in my ESP kicks in constantly on tightish cornering.
Was wondering if this was proving that my set up was too stiff.
Was wondering if this was proving that my set up was too stiff.
Could be Willie, as with my current soft setup I never have the TCS light on unless I acclerate too hard from standstill or hit a crest or large bump when accelerating...
No
I did have ABS kick in in very tight cornering - later traced to tight cornering = kinking the cable to one of the ABS sensors and causing a false signals.
Well I found some new sensors at the weekend so no not all the sensors are off the same place. There are accelerometers below the seats.
Info about ARBs and their setup: http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_antiroll
Scooby thread discussing over-stiff rear setup: http://bbs.scoobynet.com/archive/index.php/t-539180.html
Scooby thread discussing over-stiff rear setup: http://bbs.scoobynet.com/archive/index.php/t-539180.html
Willie, I'm sure you must have pushed your car quite hard on your track days, and you say you didn't get any oversteer moments... How is your car driven fast-ish in the rain? Is it skittish at all or nice and composed at the rear? Thanks.
when i was at bedford the abs didnt kick in but did loads at the ring, i just put it down to the car been unbalanced on that track,
Interesting review here http://seat-forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=628389#p628389
And this Octy driver has the same questions that I'm having: http://briskoda.net/octavia-i/rarbs-help-also-whiteline-vs-neuspeed/147130/
And this Octy driver has the same questions that I'm having: http://briskoda.net/octavia-i/rarbs-help-also-whiteline-vs-neuspeed/147130/
The only understeer I got was when accelerating too hard out of corners and the hairpin which was on a rise aswell, most cars understeer there though.
Never found the limit on the road since fitted ARB's, the limit is just too fast for the road TBH
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