Super Six A7 Ibiza Homologation docs

[R French]

I know this is a kind of spin off from the kit car thread but it got me thinking that there is enough anorak power on the forum to help - no offence inteneded as I guess I'm a closet geek. Can anyone help?

I am in need of the Ibiza FIA group A7 homologation papers, basically the super six cars, does anyone have access to these and could you send any info my way? - It is purely the shell/cage papers I am interested in as the suspension and engine/box are well over budget. (Wouldn't turn them down just for a look)

So far I have.....
Spoken with Olly Clarke who I know fairly well through his old navigator and he put me in touch with Steve Black who runs SBG motorsport (which developed all the kit car stuff)
SBG- Nice chap, unfortunately it is not really worth his while to help me out unless I can give him a shell to prep for megga bucks to the homologation and current regs, money which I dont have.

FIA- want physical money for the docs (as ever) and I know anyone helping will be seen to be a bit naughty but I wont tell.

So this leaves me stuck, can you shed any light or point me in a different direction? Many thanks.

 

[m0rk]

Not sure how similar the golf stuff is for you...
http://www.vwmotorsport.com/TechInfo/Tech1.asp#Homologation Papers

SBG just maintained the cars, they didn't build them

 

[goble]

what do you need to know thats on the papers?

 

[Fl@pper]

dont know or really think if it does help but

try this for starters

i'm sure i had it somewhere - must be in the other anorak lol

*edit*
ignore mine - m0rk has already posted it

 

[m0rk]

what do you need to know thats on the papers?

__________________
Seat Tech.

Ibiza Group A rally car.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I'm sure Group A rally car's don't have longtudinal engines and RWD....

 

[goble]

then how is and escort cosworth in clubman group a and group a mounted
either with the type 9 rwd box or 4wd box then
also the sierra sapphire and sierra rs???????
built to Group A specs passed as group a Spec in Msa log book as group a
and photos of it at msa as group a

 

[R French]

Stiffening plate locations
Seam welds to existing shell
External body mods - bonnet (air flow)- rolling of arches etc
Engine bay mods to strengthen mounts etc
Front subframe mods - give up on the rear as too difficult with existing set up.
Direction of movement for turret mounts - within the spec,
Material allowed to be removed
Cage mount positions
Bulkhead mods, holes blanked off
Any double skinning to floor
Seat mounts
Harness mounts
Fire system

Basically rather than interperating the Blue Book myself I reckon it is alot easier to follow what has been done and then have no problem when getting it log booked. I intend on doing this myself and have a turnaround of 5 months. Trying to minimise hassle.

 

[R French]

Cheers Mork - good for the engine as the MKIII golf stuff deffinietly applies to the ABF 2.0 16v including the exhaust system and fuelling. Shame this is where the money is.

I reckon it is better to bung the car on a diet as performance is good enough for what I want. Power to weight ratio improvement.

So if I follow A7 shell construction regs then put door pannels, roof lining and rear seat foam and covering back in then it complys with road rally regs.

 

[m0rk]

aren't the A7 regs the kit car ones?

I think Super Six cars were more group N sort of things?

goble, unless you're using some weird set of rules your car isn't group A 'proper' (you can't move the suspension pick up points by 20mm, or change driven wheels)

anyway - it might be safer to interpret the regs, though they're going to be convoluted!

 

[R French]

Just to clarify - the Super 6 cars although running in gp A had FWD and the 2.0 16v engine.

Ford can get away with all sorts, and still do. I honestly have no idea how the escort managed to get its papers in the logitudinal RWD guise. Guarunteed them a win.

I remember from F2 that Ford had a RS2000 (I think) Escort ready to go that should have wiped the floor with the Ibiza's but they never ran many events with it. I think they knew that the formula was doomed hence pulling the plug before/during entering a stonking WRC car with the Cosworth. Could have been purely a development mule to get through homologaion in the same way SEAT managed Ibiza running gear from the golf 3 including wheel base on kit cars.

It's a while ago so I could be a little cloudy here.

 

[goble]

seam welds on mine were done for tarmac spec rallying so was 1inch long weld every 2 inches.
youll have to make the rear subframe to multilink it
harness and seat mounts are to your own liking but to comply as per blue book
cage mount positions as per cage (recommend safety devices weld in cage or custom cages) cage went through bulkhead and was used to stiffn front turrets
plates were used on front chassis legs where they meet the body
there is a lot that can be removed to reduce weight as long as it doesnt interfere with strength of car

 

[m0rk]

Just to clarify - the Super 6 cars although running in gp A had FWD and the 2.0 16v engine.

I will keep on googling for this for you then!

I think they were built in the UK (f2 ones were bought in from spain)

 

[R French]

Not the Blue book - I hate it with a passion. You read it 3 times and then someone who has been there before many times tells you the opposite.

Before this goes the wrong way I'll check the super six class as I could have got it wrong. Having said that seen stuff in Ireland running in A7 that deffo was an old super six car plus one in Belgium.

Could have been modded though -

Hang fire and I'll find out my whatsit from my elbow. Will be tomorrow though.

 

[R French]

Yep - thats the stuff.

Starting to budget seriously for next seasons rebuild. Thanks for the cage info, that is very helpful.

Mork - I found google a bit weird on this and have tried a few permutations for the wording to get a specific feedback, no luck as of yet.

What would be ideal is to wack this into CAD to have a proper look but cant take a month making a model up for what people who know what they are doing can do with a tape measure. - Horses for courses. Would be nice though and then a nice FEA on the remaing bits of the shell plus cage.

So, If I can find out what has been done in the past, measure it, copy it, problem over and the difficult thinking is done. The shell stuff is easy for me to carry out but the thinking is most deffinitely not as I have no experiance with vehicle engineering, appart from designing a seat mount for DAF trucks - which was cack.

 

[goble]

m0rk i would then try reading page 309 section 37.1.1 in the msa blue book.
have a look at andy burtons pug coswort and tell me what that is then????

 

[R French]

Sorry - just remembered about the Escorts,

Two versions - one is a reshelled MKI or MKII. People have done this with every guise of Escort to have a nice new shell on new running gear in the arse happy fashion. This applied right up to the 1997 ish shells. e.g there is a historic displaying 1974 plates running a 1987 shell. RWD and transverse BDA

More modern version was

They got RWD from 4WD in one step. Then once that was approved they spun the engine round to put ex wks BDA's in or the Turbo'd cossie lumps.
Oulton park still have 6+ of these cars in their rally school.

Both get you group A. Still not too dure of the super six stuff. Off to find out.

Thanks for all your help folks, please keep this going as it would be good to get a result to share here.

 

[goble]

i would get the shell blasted or acid dipped first though as youll get a good idead of what needs doing after seeing all the seams better and will save you days in labour.
also try central blast cleaning for help with buts and bobs, have a look at their site and another site is DJM motorsport...

 

[goble]

a good place also to get bits of for the ibiza and golf is www.rallycarsforsale.net

 

[R French]

Sorry - just to clarify,

For stage rallying you can build what you like and hit group A. All the specials run in this catagory such as mad Pug 306's with cosworth motors and space frames. These temd to be a shadow (cant spell sillouhette with out speel chuck).

You can MSA log book anything with in reason, hence various mental machinery but FIA homologation to original manufactures specs is very different. I plan to run in as many catagories as possible as the price per stage mile is increasing significatly, allowing me to pick and choose cheaper events, or if I can't do that end up with a bomb proof shell for anything.

For Road regs and gp n the regs are much stricter based on the car it was not what it had been turned into.

 

[R French]

Thanks for the link. Good stuff.